Is it good to have that many art styles in one game? I don't know about gameplay but the art looks bad to me. Just wanted to know what other artist think?
Assuming everybody here is a profesional artist, an aspiring artist or at least someone who loves and cares about game art and this industry, I think we can discuss Mario's art without calling it "trash". It's not about nintendo being above criticism imo, It's just about showing some respect for all the artists who are working on this game and are not responsible of the artistic or creative choices (good or bad). Even if it's a bad choice from someone above, a team is putting efforts in this direction.
Going on video game websites and see players and customers trash talking the game you are working on is part of the job i guess. But we have the right to expect a more respectful way to give opinions and feedbacks from peers on Polycount. Just my 2cts.
Regarding this new Mario....well, I'm not a huge fan of the franchise and of the mix of styles. But I suppose that Nintendo doesn't always feel the need to unify the art when they are mixing different aesthetics by choice. Look at Super Smash Bros: Mario, Ryu, Cloud and Toon Link throwing pokeballs at each others in KirbyLand! So if Mario is traveling through different worlds, maybe they just don't care. Maybe the game will be more gameplay centered and they are focusing on that...Wait and see...
Edit: The trailer is also a little bit rough to me. I think it doesn't help the mixed feelings about the game. I don't ask for a story trailer, but something with more settings presentation would be great
But if you go into a pancake restaurant, and tell them "These pancakes taste like hot trash", well, it's a little different.
But if you say "I don't really like pancakes", that's absolutely fine. Because not everyone likes pancakes.
He didn't go to a pancake restaurant though. Polycount isn't nintendo's design room, and frankly i'd be disappointed if a community of game artists DIDNT critique and dissect every aspect of this game's aesthetic and discuss in detail why it's caused the reaction it has. What were their intentions? did they fail? Some people here have attempted to, but i expect any substantial thought will be derailed by discussion about how polite he was. Who cares if he called it trash. TRASH. Gosh!
For what it's worth, I think it's demonstrably and _objectively_ (gasp! objectivity, in art?!) worse than a lot of their past work. It's inconsistent, breaks with its own conventions and generally is a bit of a mess. Nothing wrong with jumping worlds but there's consistent work and then there's sloppy work. It's fine for indie, but when its a legendary company and it's main talent is aging out of full time involvement, you're going to question the new kids running the show. No clear Nintendo vision here, seems more like different teams working on different things cobbling together a product sooner than they anticipated.
"Man, Nintendo always does the same thing with Mario, why won't they try something different?"
*Nintendo tries something different with Mario*
"No, not like that."
How about we not pass judgement on something that we don't know how far along in development it is, and without knowing the context of what we are seeing? Personally, I'm excited to see more about it. Nintendo's first party games don't really have a reputation of being a let down.
and frankly i'd be disappointed if a community of game artists DIDNT critique and dissect every aspect of this game's aesthetic and discuss in detail
There's a difference between critique and discussion about decision and just using word like "trash" " hot messed" "it's shit" It's a huge difference between saying " I don't like this because i found the building to be really flat and the overall look to be really gamecube level" and " This is hot trash"
and frankly i'd be disappointed if a community of game artists DIDNT critique and dissect every aspect of this game's aesthetic and discuss in detail
There's a difference between critique and discussion about decision and just using word like "trash" " hot messed" "it's shit" It's a huge difference between saying " I don't like this because i found the building to be really flat and the overall look to be really gamecube level" and " This is hot trash"
Yeah well the OP was bad with words, but the rest of the topic can either spend energy calling him out on it, derailing the entire potentially useful conversation about art, or you can just get deep into the art.
My problem with it is visual inconsistency and lack of confidence. This isnt about graphical fidelity, its about aesthetics. I would not criticise an indie like this, but from a top level developer with a legacy like theirs? Especially alongside another problematic game for me - BoTW whose art direction is some middle-ground 50/50 muddy mess imo.. Windwaker may have divided in terms of _taste_, but it had a rock hard aesthetic. it knew what it was. In mario's case, mario 3d land has a strong aesthetic, it knows what it is. This one is a move away from a distinct style toward many random styles, it doesnt really smell of confidence. And thats the problem here with mario, it's less focused. it's less world-class-nintendo and more student project.
Imo this is all a result of nintendo feeling the heat, nintendo aren't selling as well as other platforms (wii u) and I think they've turned to marketing to say what are we doing wrong? the problem is though, that you cant and shouldn't try to please everyone and i think that's what they're doing here. It's less focused, its less impressive and ultimately it dissapoints. The argument on slack has been that they're being experimental and fresh. there's experimental, and then there's senseless variety, potentially at the cost of cohesion and immersion. It becomes superficial again, which it was to begin with, but given that they developed those ideas over 25 years and dumped them in favour of random levels deserves a bit of scrutiny from fans imo. What would have impressed me would have been nintendo building a living mushroom kingdom, not dumping us in a genericised, essentially random new york amongst other even more disparate themes. Random environments, to me, is design cop out OR the kind of thing you get from too many chefs / design by comittee. I'm sure they'll cobble together a canon reason.
----- what i basically think: A great chef doesnt throw all the ingredients into the pan, they design a distinct flavour and give it the space to shine. Mario Oddyssey is throwing all the ingredients in. People have argued that its experimental but that's what I buy indie games for, not top tier first party hero titles. as for botw is a clash between two flavours with neither being executed particularly stellarly. 3/10 would order as takeaway but this isnt michelin. --------- Yes, these are opinions and nintendo are entitled to designing their projects however they fancy, but looking at their recent work - its clear that a lot of fans see it as a step back. bold = tldr.
Re: "obviously, some of them are going to judge your posts or the words you used"
Speaking as a senior artist who has handled team hiring, it takes a lot more than a single click-bait thread title to put someone on my "no-thanks" radar.
I think in general it's a bad practice to be too concerned about what you say around here. Too stifling. We're all adults. Spirited debate is a good and healthy thing. It's ok to be heated now and then. Just be respectful in general. Don't (consistently) be a dick. The OP has not even gotten close to that threshold.
I'm thinking that New Donk city s probably only going to be a small level. For all we know it could be a fantastic experience. After looking at it a bit longer, I'm personally looking forward to mario ground pounding off the empire state building.
I admit I was upset when I wrote it, upset at a lot of things Nintendo is doing right now. I admit it didn't pick the best words out of frustration it just looks really bad to me I expect way more from them I was just as upset when I saw mighty number 9. I'm not commenting anymore on this discussion this has become something I didn't intend.
I think it's fine if you think it looks like a hot mess. But I don't think it's cool that you didn't put spaces between the title. That's just disrespectful.
And given that definition I think Super Mario Odyssey looks like a hot mess. But it's not a big deal. They'll probably make a New Super Mario Bros Switch pretty soon, and I'll have my Mario game.
I don't give a shit. I've been playing Mario since NES. And even now, you put a controller in my hand that makes Mario jump around like a lunatic, I'll take a f**king week off work as old addiction habits re-emerge.....
I admit I was upset when I wrote it, upset at a lot of things Nintendo is doing right now. I admit it didn't pick the best words out of frustration it just looks really bad to me I expect way more from them I was just as upset when I saw mighty number 9. I'm not commenting anymore on this discussion this has become something I didn't intend.
Rant, with the best intentions: And there you go everyone, can anyone else see how knee jerking about offence is actually counter productive? I've noticed and occasionally grumbled about a cultural phenomenon that has emerged over the last few years where people frequently feel entitled to actively police the morality of conversations with a focus on how things can offend, on behalf of other people and usually before anyone has actually been meaningfully offended. It closes down conversations. We have moderators to guide our tone and warn us when we go too far, everyone else should stay on topic IMO. But to elaborate: OH NO WE COULD POTENTIALLY OFFEND NINTENDO! Nope. I'm pretty sure the artists in question here aren't offended if they've seen it. I think they either feel that know better than us (its all subjective, but they've got years of experience on most of us), or they have decided that what they're doing is right for whatever reasons and that's ok.
More likely though, I think they know this: We can and should still discuss it. And even say that they've made bad decisions. Your favourite musicians have probably had a terrible album. We're a community of artists, we all have different views but ask any GOOD artist what helped them develop most? Discarding pleasantries and tip-toing, and brutally, effectively talking about what works and doesnt work without it being about the people behind the work, but the work itself. If you disagree, explain why you think they're wrong in clear and simple terms. You may not be right when you say xyz about the work, but its not about having the magical answer, posting it, and leaving, it's about having the conversation. Nobody is going to change their mind in the moment either, but the point is as these things get said, and people respond, we have time to think, adjust our ideas, and post again and we all move forward.
I posted essentially the same sentiments about the games i mentioned a few times, but each time i posted it, it developed a little bit. Iterated on it. I had hoped people would respond with equally focused, (in that they take a particular stance, because you get nowhere sitting in the middle trying not to go in any particular direction), alternative or counter arguments and other people might weigh the merits of both. Some tried, but others did this and as a result OP has left.
Nintendo have a long history and as such they have long-time fans. This means people are going to feel strongly about things, and expect a lot from them. This much is _obvious_. I think Nintendo, if ever reading this, have been doing this long enough to look past the emotion on the surface and see the essence of what people are feeling about their _work_, and not them. It's dumb to hold work on a special pedestal, or to try to make it personal about the artists. It's just about the work -- the game -- not the people.
It's all opinion. But lets get somewhere substantial with it, instead of making people here, who are learning artists, afraid to take chances with their ideas about what works and doesn't, in a discussion with other artists. Halting that discussion under the guise of avoiding offence puts them in creative chains, afraid to challenge the status quo, established ideas or themselves because they can't talk and therefore think and think differently about these things.
That is by far the worst thing you can do to or as an artist. or indeed to people.
Personal feelings shouldn't come into it, and no mature artists I've met really take personal offense to people critiquing their art honestly, in fact they ask for honesty. Often they disappear for a while afterward to brew on what they've heard - i know I certainly do about my own work - I get frustrated, but then I iterate and continue, or i ignore and continue. but I wouldn't want artists not to discuss it - for them or for me. Within the context of a forum that is supposed to foster learning and discussion, I like to think we're grown up enough to do these kinds of things.
We aren't that important to nintendo, they probably don't care what we think, but what we can learn from dissecting their work as a group with our varied viewpoints and levels of experience is quite important for a community of people that do or want to do this for a living.
To be honest, having written that rant I don't much feel like going in depth with annotated screenshots and paragraphs comparing their previous work any more because I instead felt the need to write this post, and I have my work to get on with. I'd have done an analysis here instead, and yeah I might have been right or wrong about whatever i said according to you or him or her or nintendo, but I might have been enlightened by other artists here who: a) may have more experience than me and put me straight on my ideas b) may have less experience than me and surprise me with something i cant see for my learned conventions c) may work for nintendo and decide to respond to my efforts in taking it apart, with the thoughts behind why they chose to do what they did. d) who knows.
But as i write this, with even the OP even bailing, I don't see much more happening. It's just thoughts here, my thoughts. you polycount, lets try to strive for when we are at our best, and learn from failed topics like this where the op feels the need to leave maybe i'm wrong about all this, but this is how OP's latest post made me feel. Bold=tldr
It's all opinion. But lets get somewhere substantial with it, instead of making people here, who are learning artists, afraid to take chances with their ideas about what works and doesn't, in a discussion with other artists. Halting that discussion under the guise of avoiding offence puts them in creative chains, afraid to challenge the status quo, established ideas or themselves because they can't talk and therefore think and think differently about these things.
That is by far the worst thing you can do to or as an artist. or indeed to people.
So while I did feel the OP's title was a bit harsh, he elaborated in his actual post about the mashup of art styles looking bad which was fine and discussion ensued.
As for the point I highlighted, I think harsh words alone will do more to stifle creativity of an artist especially ones starting out. If there was a polycounter that just went around calling work that wasn't the best total shit with no accompanying reasons why, that wouldn't be good for artistic development. So while I agree we shouldn't avoid offending people, the potential offence should at least be accompanied with specifics of why we think something very well may be shit.
@Chimp - well fking said dude. especially the "social justice" stuff, I guess Polycount isnt as immune to social media trends as we like to think. I mean, half of this thread is a discussion about the wording of "hot thrash" rather then the reasoning and opinions behind that statement.
Anyone has it's own personal theory about wth is the story going to look like ? The only thing that make sens to me is that bowser is sending mario into movie world because going through Paint is so 90' There's even a skynet version of Delphino island with pianta robot.
Replies
Going on video game websites and see players and customers trash talking the game you are working on is part of the job i guess. But we have the right to expect a more respectful way to give opinions and feedbacks from peers on Polycount.
Just my 2cts.
Regarding this new Mario....well, I'm not a huge fan of the franchise and of the mix of styles. But I suppose that Nintendo doesn't always feel the need to unify the art when they are mixing different aesthetics by choice. Look at Super Smash Bros: Mario, Ryu, Cloud and Toon Link throwing pokeballs at each others in KirbyLand!
So if Mario is traveling through different worlds, maybe they just don't care. Maybe the game will be more gameplay centered and they are focusing on that...Wait and see...
Edit: The trailer is also a little bit rough to me. I think it doesn't help the mixed feelings about the game. I don't ask for a story trailer, but something with more settings presentation would be great
He didn't go to a pancake restaurant though. Polycount isn't nintendo's design room, and frankly i'd be disappointed if a community of game artists DIDNT critique and dissect every aspect of this game's aesthetic and discuss in detail why it's caused the reaction it has. What were their intentions? did they fail? Some people here have attempted to, but i expect any substantial thought will be derailed by discussion about how polite he was. Who cares if he called it trash. TRASH. Gosh!
For what it's worth, I think it's demonstrably and _objectively_ (gasp! objectivity, in art?!) worse than a lot of their past work. It's inconsistent, breaks with its own conventions and generally is a bit of a mess. Nothing wrong with jumping worlds but there's consistent work and then there's sloppy work. It's fine for indie, but when its a legendary company and it's main talent is aging out of full time involvement, you're going to question the new kids running the show. No clear Nintendo vision here, seems more like different teams working on different things cobbling together a product sooner than they anticipated.
*Nintendo tries something different with Mario*
"No, not like that."
How about we not pass judgement on something that we don't know how far along in development it is, and without knowing the context of what we are seeing? Personally, I'm excited to see more about it. Nintendo's first party games don't really have a reputation of being a let down.
The trailer looks way too similar to this.
*Pulls out Uzi* "Come at-ah me, beeches!!"
My problem with it is visual inconsistency and lack of confidence. This isnt about graphical fidelity, its about aesthetics. I would not criticise an indie like this, but from a top level developer with a legacy like theirs? Especially alongside another problematic game for me - BoTW whose art direction is some middle-ground 50/50 muddy mess imo.. Windwaker may have divided in terms of _taste_, but it had a rock hard aesthetic. it knew what it was. In mario's case, mario 3d land has a strong aesthetic, it knows what it is. This one is a move away from a distinct style toward many random styles, it doesnt really smell of confidence. And thats the problem here with mario, it's less focused. it's less world-class-nintendo and more student project.
Imo this is all a result of nintendo feeling the heat, nintendo aren't selling as well as other platforms (wii u) and I think they've turned to marketing to say what are we doing wrong? the problem is though, that you cant and shouldn't try to please everyone and i think that's what they're doing here. It's less focused, its less impressive and ultimately it dissapoints.
The argument on slack has been that they're being experimental and fresh. there's experimental, and then there's senseless variety, potentially at the cost of cohesion and immersion. It becomes superficial again, which it was to begin with, but given that they developed those ideas over 25 years and dumped them in favour of random levels deserves a bit of scrutiny from fans imo. What would have impressed me would have been nintendo building a living mushroom kingdom, not dumping us in a genericised, essentially random new york amongst other even more disparate themes. Random environments, to me, is design cop out OR the kind of thing you get from too many chefs / design by comittee. I'm sure they'll cobble together a canon reason.
----- what i basically think:
A great chef doesnt throw all the ingredients into the pan, they design a distinct flavour and give it the space to shine. Mario Oddyssey is throwing all the ingredients in. People have argued that its experimental but that's what I buy indie games for, not top tier first party hero titles. as for botw is a clash between two flavours with neither being executed particularly stellarly. 3/10 would order as takeaway but this isnt michelin.
---------
Yes, these are opinions and nintendo are entitled to designing their projects however they fancy, but looking at their recent work - its clear that a lot of fans see it as a step back.
bold = tldr.
very good points though
There's a lot of great discussion and critique in this thread, we'd hate to have to remove or close it.
The OP has started a good discussion. Let's keep it on the art please.
Speaking as a senior artist who has handled team hiring, it takes a lot more than a single click-bait thread title to put someone on my "no-thanks" radar.
I think in general it's a bad practice to be too concerned about what you say around here. Too stifling. We're all adults. Spirited debate is a good and healthy thing. It's ok to be heated now and then. Just be respectful in general. Don't (consistently) be a dick. The OP has not even gotten close to that threshold.
And given that definition I think Super Mario Odyssey looks like a hot mess. But it's not a big deal. They'll probably make a New Super Mario Bros Switch pretty soon, and I'll have my Mario game.
But to elaborate: OH NO WE COULD POTENTIALLY OFFEND NINTENDO! Nope. I'm pretty sure the artists in question here aren't offended if they've seen it. I think they either feel that know better than us (its all subjective, but they've got years of experience on most of us), or they have decided that what they're doing is right for whatever reasons and that's ok.
More likely though, I think they know this: We can and should still discuss it. And even say that they've made bad decisions. Your favourite musicians have probably had a terrible album. We're a community of artists, we all have different views but ask any GOOD artist what helped them develop most? Discarding pleasantries and tip-toing, and brutally, effectively talking about what works and doesnt work without it being about the people behind the work, but the work itself. If you disagree, explain why you think they're wrong in clear and simple terms. You may not be right when you say xyz about the work, but its not about having the magical answer, posting it, and leaving, it's about having the conversation. Nobody is going to change their mind in the moment either, but the point is as these things get said, and people respond, we have time to think, adjust our ideas, and post again and we all move forward.
I posted essentially the same sentiments about the games i mentioned a few times, but each time i posted it, it developed a little bit. Iterated on it. I had hoped people would respond with equally focused, (in that they take a particular stance, because you get nowhere sitting in the middle trying not to go in any particular direction), alternative or counter arguments and other people might weigh the merits of both. Some tried, but others did this and as a result OP has left.
Nintendo have a long history and as such they have long-time fans. This means people are going to feel strongly about things, and expect a lot from them. This much is _obvious_. I think Nintendo, if ever reading this, have been doing this long enough to look past the emotion on the surface and see the essence of what people are feeling about their _work_, and not them. It's dumb to hold work on a special pedestal, or to try to make it personal about the artists. It's just about the work -- the game -- not the people.
It's all opinion. But lets get somewhere substantial with it, instead of making people here, who are learning artists, afraid to take chances with their ideas about what works and doesn't, in a discussion with other artists. Halting that discussion under the guise of avoiding offence puts them in creative chains, afraid to challenge the status quo, established ideas or themselves because they can't talk and therefore think and think differently about these things.
That is by far the worst thing you can do to or as an artist. or indeed to people.
Personal feelings shouldn't come into it, and no mature artists I've met really take personal offense to people critiquing their art honestly, in fact they ask for honesty. Often they disappear for a while afterward to brew on what they've heard - i know I certainly do about my own work - I get frustrated, but then I iterate and continue, or i ignore and continue. but I wouldn't want artists not to discuss it - for them or for me.Within the context of a forum that is supposed to foster learning and discussion, I like to think we're grown up enough to do these kinds of things.
We aren't that important to nintendo, they probably don't care what we think, but what we can learn from dissecting their work as a group with our varied viewpoints and levels of experience is quite important for a community of people that do or want to do this for a living.
To be honest, having written that rant I don't much feel like going in depth with annotated screenshots and paragraphs comparing their previous work any more because I instead felt the need to write this post, and I have my work to get on with. I'd have done an analysis here instead, and yeah I might have been right or wrong about whatever i said according to you or him or her or nintendo, but I might have been enlightened by other artists here who:
a) may have more experience than me and put me straight on my ideas
b) may have less experience than me and surprise me with something i cant see for my learned conventions
c) may work for nintendo and decide to respond to my efforts in taking it apart, with the thoughts behind why they chose to do what they did.
d) who knows.
But as i write this, with even the OP even bailing, I don't see much more happening. It's just thoughts here, my thoughts.
Bold=tldr
As for the point I highlighted, I think harsh words alone will do more to stifle creativity of an artist especially ones starting out. If there was a polycounter that just went around calling work that wasn't the best total shit with no accompanying reasons why, that wouldn't be good for artistic development. So while I agree we shouldn't avoid offending people, the potential offence should at least be accompanied with specifics of why we think something very well may be shit.