"Perhaps it sucks as a girl or homosexual to rarely see stuff that
appeals to you -i.e cute men for example, but often have to endure
seeing skimpy girls, but dude, its mostly heterosexual males making the
art, and being an industry site, its mostly them looking and liking it
too. You shouldn't pervert the concept of a popularity page by
artificially injecting not so popular content - that's what your own
subscriptions and the 30-odd categories are for.
So what, as a
girl or homosexual, or person from X place, you feel like you aren't
being given an equal experience on the website? what you should be
asking for is better search tools, NOT less tits. Less tits is dumb.
It's like freedoms activists who impose restrictions on what people can
and cant say, it's just dumb. The front page is about what most people
like, and most people in this industry are a particular sort, so thats
what you see."
its like you are pinpointing the problem right there, way better than i could actually, and then assumes its a none-issue? its like you first agree that art station caters mostly to certian group and then you deny it saying its as diverse as it could be? you cant have both you know
Because they aren't catering to certain groups. It's done by popularity. Those groups (girls, gays) are actually not the majority - their preferences are not the most popular. I am not saying that their preferences are any less important however, and it's important I think for me to clarify that, it's just that a page that is ranked by likes is ranked by likes, the likes of our industry which currently is predominantly male, and most likely predominantly straight. As games both become more mainstream, and the means to produce them become more accessible, you will see greater diversity overall but even then there will be groups that are upset if they apply your thinking to the situation.
It would be a problem if there were no other feeds, but there are many, as well as your own subscription feed, the curated lists of artists you like, 30 ways to subdivide each category and the ability to make your own. What I proposed at the end of that message was that a potential solution is better, more comprehensive search tools.
Beyond that, I was just saying that there's nothing crude about any of the work on artstation, and that it's actually very hard to make convincing, appealing humans, it's not lesser work as some in the thread have implied. I'd argue its harder to nail actually, way harder than some vague arty landscape. Uncanny Valley is a bastard, when we see beautiful women in impossibly interesting situations, aesthetics and representing impossible ideals of beauty, it appeals, you know? It's hard to actually do that. These pieces are actually fantastic, but I feel some people are blinded by the fact it contains some nudity, and miss the fact its actually good work.
-- and ultimately -- that i'm indulging these complaints above, but there isnt actually that much of it in the feed!
.... People make boobs arts because they want to make boobs arts. There are boobs arts on front page because people want them. The people have decided. Follow the Popular Vote, dangit.
The bold text draws attention away from other good text just as deserving of being read. Will anyone even read my text if it isn't bold? Should I start bolding everything?
everything has its downsides. just dont think that if ur good at drawing tits u make milions and your happy. if u can help others or do things other people like its something that has value. https://youtu.be/YIH3yv6ZfKY
I won't call anyone out but right now, there is some pretty poor art in trending that's there just because LOL BOOBS. On the plus side I feel like I could poop out some fast cheesecake art to get some work, I'm usually really hard on myself but some of the garbage that's getting top honors.... sheesh
Anyways, I made a fake artstation account and conducted a test to get some numbers.
First, as a baseline I'm taking numbers from a recent piece I did with my normal account.
I have about 3000 artstation followers. When I post something, artstation sends out a variety of types of notifications depending on peoples settings, so typically I get a fairly large bump. The numbers for my most recent one are 2000 likes, 4000 views, but thats over a month. Still, the number I am looking at is likes vs. views, and that number for this one is 1/20. So for every 20 views I got, I got 1 like.
Okay, so the second part of this is that I created a fake account and posted something I was working on at the time. Most you guys know I don't do stylized work almost ever, so seemed like a good chance. Since its not my style the quality is likely to be well behind my realistic work. Also a fake account put me on an equal footing with everyone else, no followers, no notifications.
The first thing I posted was a stylized head, no selling with sex, just a straight-forward piece. Over 24 hours I got 14 views, no likes. Fair enough, might have just been shit.
The second thing I posted was a stylized basemesh. This was nude, so it got the mature tag. In the same time period, 24 hours, this got 200 views, and 7 likes. Thats about a 1/30 ratio. Thats a fair bump over the last post, and used the same head, so the only change is the addition of innocuous anatomy and the mature tag.
For the third test, I took that basemesh and modified it to meet kind of what I've been seeing on artstation, which is sexier character wearing barely enough clothes to keep the mature tag away (so you can keep the thumbnail). I also want to point out that the changes made between the second and third post were, at tops, 20 minutes of changes. Some slight modifications to the anatomy, and then some polypainting.
With zero followers, the third post got 350 likes and 3200 views in 24 hours. Its currently sitting at 450 likes and 5000 views, 2 days later. Thats 1 like for every 9 views in the first 24 hours, or a 1/9 ratio. That's pretty much significantly better than anything I've posted on artstation, ever, even with 3000 followers, and it was a 'lewd' enough piece that it actually made me uncomfortable to modify and post. It sat near the top of the trending page for almost 2 days. It also increased me from 0 followers to 175 in like 3 days, I think it was 110 after 24 hours.
_____________ Sort of conclusions:
So yeah, I would say there is a massive sex bias on artsation. I also want to point out that it does really bury good artwork. This is basically my first stylized piece, and I got through it in about a day, a little less. I really didn't put much time into it because it was just a basemesh you'd never see for a project I am only half heartedly sketching out from a concept.
Meanwhile, I was looking for posts around the same time to compare mine to.
This is the best analogous piece I could find, not only because our pieces were posted pretty close to eachother, but because the artist also started with 0 followers.
Fantastic piece by a guy named Shirin Fakhry. Awesome subject, really well done cloth, face, etc. Done in a realistic style to a high degree. Right now he's got 170 likes over 1100 views. Thats actually a 1/6 ratio, which is really good as far as likes/views, but the views are waaaay down. Compared to my 5000 views in the same period, I am almost 5 times as many views and 2.5 times as many likes.
So if you compare the amount of work and care that went into this character, vs. the basemesh I ripped out in a day, and also compare the top notch quality of his piece vs. the low quality of mine, this guy is kind of getting buried for not having the sexy content. While my piece spent two days near the top of the trending wall. His never approached it, as far as I ever saw. The only reason I found it was because I went hunting.
To me the interesting part of this comparison was the 1/6 view/like ratio he got, which indicated that while he wasn't getting the views, a higher ratio of people who saw it did appreciate it. Although while he got 3 comments, I got 8.
________________ A strategy for fixing it?
The first thing I will point out is that using the mature tag actually results in a lower number of views, not more. I think thats actually a problem, because in general if you view mature filter tags, they are more likely to be tasteful nude sketches, a lot of times from life, with very little sexuality portrayed. Most of the time they are straight anatomy in charcoal. But not having the thumbnail makes people less likely to click. So ironically when nudity is tastefully and well done, it gets less attention than scantily clad but otherwise SFW images.
To get around the thumbnail thing you tend to get more like what I posted, which is an otherwise innocuous basemesh with enough clothing to get around the tag, resulting in a lot of small bikinis, lingerie type costumes, or whatever needed, which tends to add a more lewd feeling to the pieces.
If it was me, I'd get rid of the mature filter, to start.
The big change I'd make though would be to change the tending wall to prioritize the likes/views ratio. So the selling sex stuff can get a lot of views as people watch the 'new' wall, but pieces like the one I posted by Shirin, which is getting fewer views because of the less sexy content, but more likes because of the quality, will get more exposure on the trending wall, and combat the baser instincts of artstations male users to click on T&A thumbnails.
The other thing prioritizing the likes/views ratio does is even out the ability to reach the trending wall between power users with thousands of followers, and new users with none. The behavior I think is that the followers get the notification and open the piece in their browser, regardless of quality, and so regardless of quality these power users are having their work catapulted to the trending wall. I say this as a person who benefits from this effect. At this point ever thing I've posted in the last year or so has hit the trending wall automatically, even minor updates to WIPS or work that I'm not super proud of, or is early in development. That's not exactly fair. By prioritizing views/likes more highly (if its not already, to be fair I have no idea how the AS trending algorithm works right now) power users will get less of a slingshot effect to the trending wall when people get notifications, unless their piece is getting likes along with views.
I dont think anyone will be missing out on work, directors and leads know what they are looking for and will pick the person with the skills and experience they're looking for, vs. what is popular in the moment. That's definitely not what I was talking about, I was just talking about visibility.
I also dont think anyone should censure what they post or care about peoples opinions of what is 'art', what is 'fan service' etc. People should do the art they want to do and post it, ignore what they dont like, and also I think people deserve a sense of ease that others who don't like their work or subject matter will ignore it themselves, instead of creating the n'th thread or facebook post about it.
That said, I think it would be nice if the trending wall reflected more variety and was tweaked a little better to show off things that take more effort and skill than it currently does. Because like I said in my post, its not really fair that a guy can whip out a pretty weak basemesh in a day and stay trending for 48 hours just because its 'easy to look at', while another artist spends weeks doing a fantastic piece and polishing it to a high degree, and not get seen. But thats just my opinion and I dont expect anyone to really care what I think.
Fantastic study @ysalex, really interesting. Now :
Because like I said in my post, its not really fair that a guy can whip out a pretty weak basemesh in a day and stay trending for 48 hours just because its 'easy to look at', while another artist spends weeks doing a fantastic piece and polishing it to a high degree, and not get seen.
That's true, but as you said being on top of the trending page on AS is very different from getting noticed by an employer or a client for a specific kind of job. There are definitely more "people who want to see pictures of pretty anime chicks online" than "people who are looking to hire reliable artists" on the planet, so of course the metrics will reflect that. I don't think there's anything unfair here ; as a matter of fact one could flip the script and say that it is very fair for someone offering exactly what an audience wants to get the deserved views/likes/recognition for it. The roles would be reversed is someone posted a picture of a shiny T&A anime chick on a forum where classically trained oil painters share their still lifes and portraits.
At the end of the day being on the AS trending page for a bit definitely doesn't hurt (views are always good !) but social media is so organic and so far reaching that I personally don't think it is worth worrying about one platform or another. Quality stuff carves its own path !
And again, awesome study man, it's really fun to see the actual numbers.
Well I agree with you @pior , that its not a huge deal. But I will point out a couple things.
"all things considered being on top of the trending page on AS is very different from getting noticed by an employer"
- I did mention above that "I dont think anyone will be missing out on work, directors and leads know what they are looking for and will pick the person with the skills and experience they're looking for, vs. what is popular". But honestly I dont think its really the point, its sort of common sense that art directors and leads looking through artstation for prospects have different priorities than people just surfing. I also kind of doubt that employment/clients is the general reason that people post on artstation, I think most people post just to share and participate in the art community. I also think its a much different conversation than the one being had.
________
"I don't think there's anything unfair here ; as a matter of fact one could flip the script and say that it *is* very fair for someone offering exactly what an audience wants to get the deserved views/likes/recognition for it."
This is sort of why I hesitated to join the conversation at all, since my general attitude is just 'post what you want and let others post what they want and ignore it if you don't like it. So just to be clear, I'm definitely not saying that any censorship needs to happen or that artstation has any duty to do so. Not even a little bit.
There is really no such thing as fair though. Artstation has an algorithm, which determines what shows up in trending. That algorithm is not 'impartial', because it was programmed, so fair doesn't exist. The only way we could say its either fair or unfair is if we all collectively decide that the only 'fair' way to ever do things is saying something like "The only fair way to do the trending wall is if we show the pieces which get the most views the quickest". Thats one way, but there are others, all equally as valid. What I'm saying is "We could do the trending wall by showing the pieces that get the most likes per view ratio." Neither way is fair, neither is unfair, they are just differently balanced. So to claim that it is fair the way it is wrong in my opinion.
Artstation has an algorithm to determine the trending page. They have a metric for determining what is 'popular' or trending. All I'm saying is that there are a lot of drawbacks to their current algorithm, which although I dont know for sure, but a quick look seems to show that its pretty much just views/time. That why artwork that caters to gawkers gets featured over other artwork. It also caters to 'power users' of which I am one, albeit lower on the totem pole than many others. Everything I post hits trending automatically. Without suggesting censorship, without casting judgement on any viewer or artist because I truly dont care that much, I think that the trending wall could be improved in diversity, and also improved for people with fewer followers, by altering the algorithm. Shifting from views/time, to views/likes/time, would help content like the piece I posted, which is amazing and yet currently being buried.
As far as I am concerned the reason why I don't really bother thinking about all this is because I treat AS as if the trending wall simply didn't exist. I use the site because it offers a good looking and unified gallery system for art projects, with the added benefit of many other artists having an account there and thus able to comment if they want. Therefore the algorithm eventually becoming better or worse would have zero impact on my use of the site. But then again, everyone is different and see value in different things
For instance it could be argued that the Kurdish dress model, while technically perfect, is (open finger air quotes) just (close finger air quotes) a reproduction of an existing object, with no other merit than being very accurate and therefore mostly catering to people who are well aware of the technical difficulties of producing such a model. Does it deserve more views/like/trending than a expertly rendered picture of an anime chick ?
Of course I am playing devil's advocate here - it's just fun to put oneself into other people's head. A different trending algorithm would definitely be an interesting experiment for sure.
The cute face girl and sexual content that is pushed out with high quality and quantity bothered me a lot before because the search function didn't work that well, what I want to see is just my personal preference which is why I didn't really bother to take it up, but at the time except for applying filters it was kinda hard to search for stuff, now the search function works as expected and you can filter by new or likes so I'm happy.
Someday I'll do some robots in some sexy poses and see if I can get some likes
At its core, I think Artstation is really just a networking tool. Find an artist you like and then see who THEY like. It's basically a rabbit hole of amazing art. The front and trending pages are just to get you started.
@ysalex very interesting study! Your conclusion matches up with my assumptions which were based on anecdotal evidence, so it's cool to see a more scientific approach. Thanks for putting in the effort.
@ysalex really cool study you've done. You even did a proper control! I suppose that the current system could be somewhat taken advantage of, with posting more lewd artwork first to build an audience. The reality is that with an industry as small and as competitive as the one we're all in, every little bit, might be important.
@ysalex Though IMO, I think a good basemesh would be more popular than a lewd art. I think I saw the ones you put up on fake accounts, and they look pretty neat :P
A lewd art would be liked and viewed mostly by people who like to view it.
Whereas a good basemesh, although albeit naked in nature, can also serve as an example for others to do the same. "That looks great, I wanna do some stylized art too!" or "Maybe I should make a few templates of my own as well." or 'This looks good as an example. Lemme share it on Pinterest too.'
Also maybe just me, but I do collect lots of sculpt examples/templates.
And that kind of brings us back to "you can't control what other people like and favourite" :P
The issue with the trending page was exactly why I've always thought that the one good innovation to come out of deviantART was the "More Like This" feature. So where we have "more from this user" every time you view a piece of artwork, you could also have "More Like This" that suggests similar artwork from other users. That way, everyone pretty much piggy backs off everyone else's popularity, thus helping lesser known artists out. Although I'm not entirely sure everyone would actually be on board with that idea, but I found some great art back on deviantART that way that I'd have never seen otherwise.
Also, every time I see the title of this thread, it makes me think it's a complaint about @Tits!
@ysalex I encountered your fake account recently, "John Dalton", lol. That's the one ...right? . Didn't know it was you, but I constantly kept thinking that "damn, the anatomy and posture of the girl reminds me SO MUCH of Yuri's past work." I gotta say, that you have such an indetifiable sculpting style.
@R3D Interesting... I wonder how well that would actually work to get more visibility on your portfolio. With Artstation's system leading to people with more followers getting far more likes/views on literally anything they put up, it might actually be worthwhile to go off-style and create one or two lewd pieces just to amass a base of followers, and draw attention to your normal works.
@Grimwolf Is that a good idea though? You'll get a lot of followers for sure, but they might not be following you for your actual art... rather, they will be following you for the subject matter. Which is fair enough if that's what you truly want to do, but if there comes a time when you don't want to do that kind of art, then how many of your followers actually care about the kind of art work you care about?
Let me give an example; back when I was a regular deviantart user, but a much worse artist, I did a LOT of fanart. I was restricted to two fandoms, and I eventually amassed around 1500 followers from that. Sounds like a lot, but almost every single one followed me to see the subject matter and when I started doing my own thing, how many of those people actually stuck around to comment and fave my stuff? Perhaps 20 max, unless I do another fanart. Then it jumps exponentially.
So if you are going to do a certain type of art to pander, keep in mind that the followers you receive might not actually be worth it should you choose to change focus. Make sure it's something you actually want to do rather than something you think you should do to get more followers because trust me, it's not worth it if you don't really feel much for the subject.
If you don't really feel much towards the subject matter, then in my opinion it's much better to take the slow route around and gain followers doing only what you truly care about. If that's butt art then you're lucky!
i don't know if it has been brought up already in here but how are twitter and facebook tied to popularity on artstation? are likes/views shared between these platforms? when you publish something it asks you to link to these sites but as an abstainer of both facebook and twitter i have so far not looked into that at all. just wondering because i've seen some pieces show up regularly in the 'community' section where i was just scratching my head as to their apparent popularity.
Interesting thread and curious experiment Yuri . Well I personally am not surprised that tits are popular TBH.
thomasp - no from my experience if u get likes on twitter that's it you won't get a duplicate on AS since they already seen it.
I also find that AS is visited a lot by owners of tumblr blogs because I've definitely noticed a huge increase in posts of images from AS there and obviously tits and anime inspired stuff [or fanart in general] will get them more views than sth they don't know or sth moody for instance [well obviously if they have a goth blog that's different but most want pretty and attractive ].
AS is definitely DA 2.0 to me. The subject matter that dominates is exactly the same. I practically never look at the trending page or the picks page and I find Instagram much more convenient to follow my fav artists but it's still a useful portfolio site I think. But I agree the algorithms need work and so does the administration. One other thing is a trend that tends to dominate it now which is posting whatever just to get more eyeballs and slowly diluting the quality of your work. From a viewer's perspective I find it boring rather than get excited by the same head with a different material from yet another angle. But yeah if you're looking to get views and exposure this seems like the best strategy. Post often, like instagram. This will get you new follower or two with each post and then more likes if you have more followers. Makes sense but there's a cost. For 2d artists it's definitely easier to produce sth of quality every other day. For 3d not so much.
lol so true bunch of loli girls half naked, illustrations of tracer from overwatch on doggystyle positions withh huge vagina lips, and much more wich makes me cringe, some people indeed do this for views some others have only nude in their profile
I have the "environment" filter on by default, so I don't see many tits. When I WANT to see tits, and happily go to the character category, I often get disappointed by the lack of them!
I can't believe this is still going. People draw what they like, nobody else is entitled to tell them what to make, and artstation shows what is popular. A musician can moan all they want that shallow, sexy pop music saturates the charts but at the end of the day it's what a lot of people like
What I think some people here are forgetting is that........its art. When has there EVER been any point in art history where nudity of the female figure wasn't a main theme?
I can't believe this is still going. People draw what they like, nobody else is entitled to tell them what to make, and artstation shows what is popular. A musician can moan all they want that shallow, sexy pop music saturates the charts but at the end of the day it's what a lot of people like
I was happy to see the revival of the thread. I like cheese. I like burgers. Therefore, cheeseburgers are good! Same applies to this thread!
I didn't read through all the comments, but I thought I'd weigh in anyways. I do notice all the T&A on artstation (increasing in rate too, I think), its unappealing to me, and its something I didn't enjoy on cghub either. I wish we could curate what shows up on the front page a bit better, I realize its eye candy for some, just not me.
Replies
@Chimp
like why did you write this then?
"Perhaps it sucks as a girl or homosexual to rarely see stuff that appeals to you -i.e cute men for example, but often have to endure seeing skimpy girls, but dude, its mostly heterosexual males making the art, and being an industry site, its mostly them looking and liking it too. You shouldn't pervert the concept of a popularity page by artificially injecting not so popular content - that's what your own subscriptions and the 30-odd categories are for.
So what, as a girl or homosexual, or person from X place, you feel like you aren't being given an equal experience on the website? what you should be asking for is better search tools, NOT less tits. Less tits is dumb. It's like freedoms activists who impose restrictions on what people can and cant say, it's just dumb. The front page is about what most people like, and most people in this industry are a particular sort, so thats what you see."
its like you are pinpointing the problem right there, way better than i could actually, and then assumes its a none-issue? its like you first agree that art station caters mostly to certian group and then you deny it saying its as diverse as it could be? you cant have both you know
It would be a problem if there were no other feeds, but there are many, as well as your own subscription feed, the curated lists of artists you like, 30 ways to subdivide each category and the ability to make your own. What I proposed at the end of that message was that a potential solution is better, more comprehensive search tools.
Beyond that, I was just saying that there's nothing crude about any of the work on artstation, and that it's actually very hard to make convincing, appealing humans, it's not lesser work as some in the thread have implied. I'd argue its harder to nail actually, way harder than some vague arty landscape. Uncanny Valley is a bastard, when we see beautiful women in impossibly interesting situations, aesthetics and representing impossible ideals of beauty, it appeals, you know? It's hard to actually do that. These pieces are actually fantastic, but I feel some people are blinded by the fact it contains some nudity, and miss the fact its actually good work.
-- and ultimately -- that i'm indulging these complaints above, but there isnt actually that much of it in the feed!
if u can help others or do things other people like its something that has value.
https://youtu.be/YIH3yv6ZfKY
Go make art.
Anyways, I made a fake artstation account and conducted a test to get some numbers.
First, as a baseline I'm taking numbers from a recent piece I did with my normal account.
I have about 3000 artstation followers. When I post something, artstation sends out a variety of types of notifications depending on peoples settings, so typically I get a fairly large bump. The numbers for my most recent one are 2000 likes, 4000 views, but thats over a month. Still, the number I am looking at is likes vs. views, and that number for this one is 1/20. So for every 20 views I got, I got 1 like.
Okay, so the second part of this is that I created a fake account and posted something I was working on at the time. Most you guys know I don't do stylized work almost ever, so seemed like a good chance. Since its not my style the quality is likely to be well behind my realistic work. Also a fake account put me on an equal footing with everyone else, no followers, no notifications.
The first thing I posted was a stylized head, no selling with sex, just a straight-forward piece. Over 24 hours I got 14 views, no likes. Fair enough, might have just been shit.
The second thing I posted was a stylized basemesh. This was nude, so it got the mature tag. In the same time period, 24 hours, this got 200 views, and 7 likes. Thats about a 1/30 ratio. Thats a fair bump over the last post, and used the same head, so the only change is the addition of innocuous anatomy and the mature tag.
For the third test, I took that basemesh and modified it to meet kind of what I've been seeing on artstation, which is sexier character wearing barely enough clothes to keep the mature tag away (so you can keep the thumbnail). I also want to point out that the changes made between the second and third post were, at tops, 20 minutes of changes. Some slight modifications to the anatomy, and then some polypainting.
With zero followers, the third post got 350 likes and 3200 views in 24 hours. Its currently sitting at 450 likes and 5000 views, 2 days later. Thats 1 like for every 9 views in the first 24 hours, or a 1/9 ratio. That's pretty much significantly better than anything I've posted on artstation, ever, even with 3000 followers, and it was a 'lewd' enough piece that it actually made me uncomfortable to modify and post. It sat near the top of the trending page for almost 2 days. It also increased me from 0 followers to 175 in like 3 days, I think it was 110 after 24 hours.
_____________
Sort of conclusions:
So yeah, I would say there is a massive sex bias on artsation. I also want to point out that it does really bury good artwork. This is basically my first stylized piece, and I got through it in about a day, a little less. I really didn't put much time into it because it was just a basemesh you'd never see for a project I am only half heartedly sketching out from a concept.
Meanwhile, I was looking for posts around the same time to compare mine to.
This is the best analogous piece I could find, not only because our pieces were posted pretty close to eachother, but because the artist also started with 0 followers.
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/3BbPY
Fantastic piece by a guy named Shirin Fakhry. Awesome subject, really well done cloth, face, etc. Done in a realistic style to a high degree. Right now he's got 170 likes over 1100 views. Thats actually a 1/6 ratio, which is really good as far as likes/views, but the views are waaaay down. Compared to my 5000 views in the same period, I am almost 5 times as many views and 2.5 times as many likes.
So if you compare the amount of work and care that went into this character, vs. the basemesh I ripped out in a day, and also compare the top notch quality of his piece vs. the low quality of mine, this guy is kind of getting buried for not having the sexy content. While my piece spent two days near the top of the trending wall. His never approached it, as far as I ever saw. The only reason I found it was because I went hunting.
To me the interesting part of this comparison was the 1/6 view/like ratio he got, which indicated that while he wasn't getting the views, a higher ratio of people who saw it did appreciate it. Although while he got 3 comments, I got 8.
________________
A strategy for fixing it?
The first thing I will point out is that using the mature tag actually results in a lower number of views, not more. I think thats actually a problem, because in general if you view mature filter tags, they are more likely to be tasteful nude sketches, a lot of times from life, with very little sexuality portrayed. Most of the time they are straight anatomy in charcoal. But not having the thumbnail makes people less likely to click. So ironically when nudity is tastefully and well done, it gets less attention than scantily clad but otherwise SFW images.
To get around the thumbnail thing you tend to get more like what I posted, which is an otherwise innocuous basemesh with enough clothing to get around the tag, resulting in a lot of small bikinis, lingerie type costumes, or whatever needed, which tends to add a more lewd feeling to the pieces.
If it was me, I'd get rid of the mature filter, to start.
The big change I'd make though would be to change the tending wall to prioritize the likes/views ratio. So the selling sex stuff can get a lot of views as people watch the 'new' wall, but pieces like the one I posted by Shirin, which is getting fewer views because of the less sexy content, but more likes because of the quality, will get more exposure on the trending wall, and combat the baser instincts of artstations male users to click on T&A thumbnails.
The other thing prioritizing the likes/views ratio does is even out the ability to reach the trending wall between power users with thousands of followers, and new users with none. The behavior I think is that the followers get the notification and open the piece in their browser, regardless of quality, and so regardless of quality these power users are having their work catapulted to the trending wall. I say this as a person who benefits from this effect. At this point ever thing I've posted in the last year or so has hit the trending wall automatically, even minor updates to WIPS or work that I'm not super proud of, or is early in development. That's not exactly fair. By prioritizing views/likes more highly (if its not already, to be fair I have no idea how the AS trending algorithm works right now) power users will get less of a slingshot effect to the trending wall when people get notifications, unless their piece is getting likes along with views.
I also dont think anyone should censure what they post or care about peoples opinions of what is 'art', what is 'fan service' etc. People should do the art they want to do and post it, ignore what they dont like, and also I think people deserve a sense of ease that others who don't like their work or subject matter will ignore it themselves, instead of creating the n'th thread or facebook post about it.
That said, I think it would be nice if the trending wall reflected more variety and was tweaked a little better to show off things that take more effort and skill than it currently does. Because like I said in my post, its not really fair that a guy can whip out a pretty weak basemesh in a day and stay trending for 48 hours just because its 'easy to look at', while another artist spends weeks doing a fantastic piece and polishing it to a high degree, and not get seen. But thats just my opinion and I dont expect anyone to really care what I think.
Because like I said in my post, its not really fair that a guy can whip out a pretty weak basemesh in a day and stay trending for 48 hours just because its 'easy to look at', while another artist spends weeks doing a fantastic piece and polishing it to a high degree, and not get seen.
That's true, but as you said being on top of the trending page on AS is very different from getting noticed by an employer or a client for a specific kind of job. There are definitely more "people who want to see pictures of pretty anime chicks online" than "people who are looking to hire reliable artists" on the planet, so of course the metrics will reflect that. I don't think there's anything unfair here ; as a matter of fact one could flip the script and say that it is very fair for someone offering exactly what an audience wants to get the deserved views/likes/recognition for it. The roles would be reversed is someone posted a picture of a shiny T&A anime chick on a forum where classically trained oil painters share their still lifes and portraits.
At the end of the day being on the AS trending page for a bit definitely doesn't hurt (views are always good !) but social media is so organic and so far reaching that I personally don't think it is worth worrying about one platform or another. Quality stuff carves its own path !
And again, awesome study man, it's really fun to see the actual numbers.
"all things considered being on top of the trending page on AS is very different from getting noticed by an employer"
- I did mention above that "I dont think anyone will be missing out on work, directors and leads know what they are looking for and will pick the person with the skills and experience they're looking for, vs. what is popular". But honestly I dont think its really the point, its sort of common sense that art directors and leads looking through artstation for prospects have different priorities than people just surfing. I also kind of doubt that employment/clients is the general reason that people post on artstation, I think most people post just to share and participate in the art community. I also think its a much different conversation than the one being had.
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"I don't think there's anything unfair here ; as a matter of fact one could flip the script and say that it *is* very fair for someone offering exactly what an audience wants to get the deserved views/likes/recognition for it."
This is sort of why I hesitated to join the conversation at all, since my general attitude is just 'post what you want and let others post what they want and ignore it if you don't like it. So just to be clear, I'm definitely not saying that any censorship needs to happen or that artstation has any duty to do so. Not even a little bit.
There is really no such thing as fair though. Artstation has an algorithm, which determines what shows up in trending. That algorithm is not 'impartial', because it was programmed, so fair doesn't exist. The only way we could say its either fair or unfair is if we all collectively decide that the only 'fair' way to ever do things is saying something like "The only fair way to do the trending wall is if we show the pieces which get the most views the quickest". Thats one way, but there are others, all equally as valid. What I'm saying is "We could do the trending wall by showing the pieces that get the most likes per view ratio." Neither way is fair, neither is unfair, they are just differently balanced. So to claim that it is fair the way it is wrong in my opinion.
Artstation has an algorithm to determine the trending page. They have a metric for determining what is 'popular' or trending. All I'm saying is that there are a lot of drawbacks to their current algorithm, which although I dont know for sure, but a quick look seems to show that its pretty much just views/time. That why artwork that caters to gawkers gets featured over other artwork. It also caters to 'power users' of which I am one, albeit lower on the totem pole than many others. Everything I post hits trending automatically. Without suggesting censorship, without casting judgement on any viewer or artist because I truly dont care that much, I think that the trending wall could be improved in diversity, and also improved for people with fewer followers, by altering the algorithm. Shifting from views/time, to views/likes/time, would help content like the piece I posted, which is amazing and yet currently being buried.
As far as I am concerned the reason why I don't really bother thinking about all this is because I treat AS as if the trending wall simply didn't exist. I use the site because it offers a good looking and unified gallery system for art projects, with the added benefit of many other artists having an account there and thus able to comment if they want. Therefore the algorithm eventually becoming better or worse would have zero impact on my use of the site. But then again, everyone is different and see value in different things
For instance it could be argued that the Kurdish dress model, while technically perfect, is (open finger air quotes) just (close finger air quotes) a reproduction of an existing object, with no other merit than being very accurate and therefore mostly catering to people who are well aware of the technical difficulties of producing such a model. Does it deserve more views/like/trending than a expertly rendered picture of an anime chick ?
Of course I am playing devil's advocate here - it's just fun to put oneself into other people's head. A different trending algorithm would definitely be an interesting experiment for sure.
Someday I'll do some robots in some sexy poses and see if I can get some likes
Though IMO, I think a good basemesh would be more popular than a lewd art. I think I saw the ones you put up on fake accounts, and they look pretty neat :P
A lewd art would be liked and viewed mostly by people who like to view it.
Whereas a good basemesh, although albeit naked in nature, can also serve as an example for others to do the same. "That looks great, I wanna do some stylized art too!" or "Maybe I should make a few templates of my own as well." or 'This looks good as an example. Lemme share it on Pinterest too.'
Also maybe just me, but I do collect lots of sculpt examples/templates.
The issue with the trending page was exactly why I've always thought that the one good innovation to come out of deviantART was the "More Like This" feature. So where we have "more from this user" every time you view a piece of artwork, you could also have "More Like This" that suggests similar artwork from other users. That way, everyone pretty much piggy backs off everyone else's popularity, thus helping lesser known artists out. Although I'm not entirely sure everyone would actually be on board with that idea, but I found some great art back on deviantART that way that I'd have never seen otherwise.
Also, every time I see the title of this thread, it makes me think it's a complaint about @Tits!
I encountered your fake account recently, "John Dalton", lol. That's the one ...right?
Let me give an example; back when I was a regular deviantart user, but a much worse artist, I did a LOT of fanart. I was restricted to two fandoms, and I eventually amassed around 1500 followers from that. Sounds like a lot, but almost every single one followed me to see the subject matter and when I started doing my own thing, how many of those people actually stuck around to comment and fave my stuff? Perhaps 20 max, unless I do another fanart. Then it jumps exponentially.
So if you are going to do a certain type of art to pander, keep in mind that the followers you receive might not actually be worth it should you choose to change focus. Make sure it's something you actually want to do rather than something you think you should do to get more followers because trust me, it's not worth it if you don't really feel much for the subject.
If you don't really feel much towards the subject matter, then in my opinion it's much better to take the slow route around and gain followers doing only what you truly care about. If that's butt art then you're lucky!
just wondering because i've seen some pieces show up regularly in the 'community' section where i was just scratching my head as to their apparent popularity.
thomasp - no from my experience if u get likes on twitter that's it you won't get a duplicate on AS since they already seen it.
I also find that AS is visited a lot by owners of tumblr blogs because I've definitely noticed a huge increase in posts of images from AS there and obviously tits and anime inspired stuff [or fanart in general] will get them more views than sth they don't know or sth moody for instance [well obviously if they have a goth blog that's different but most want pretty and attractive
AS is definitely DA 2.0 to me. The subject matter that dominates is exactly the same. I practically never look at the trending page or the picks page and I find Instagram much more convenient to follow my fav artists but it's still a useful portfolio site I think. But I agree the algorithms need work and so does the administration.
One other thing is a trend that tends to dominate it now which is posting whatever just to get more eyeballs and slowly diluting the quality of your work. From a viewer's perspective I find it boring rather than get excited by the same head with a different material from yet another angle. But yeah if you're looking to get views and exposure this seems like the best strategy. Post often, like instagram. This will get you new follower or two with each post and then more likes if you have more followers. Makes sense but there's a cost. For 2d artists it's definitely easier to produce sth of quality every other day. For 3d not so much.
what are you talking about? I don't see any tits and ass! just a fine wooden chair and an awesome sketch from bobby rebholz
some others have only nude in their profile
When I WANT to see tits, and happily go to the character category, I often get disappointed by the lack of them!
"showing what is popular" as a sorting system for what is relevant to me, is really poor.
I like cheese. I like burgers. Therefore, cheeseburgers are good!
Same applies to this thread!