ArenaNet Stag Armor Art Test (Critique welcomed)

ReZilience55

Hello!

So I have decided to apply for a character artist position at ArenaNet. I sent one of the recruiters my test in its current state and he recommended that I post it Polycount to get some feedback. 

He said specifically that I could strengthen my chances by working on the textures. 
Let me know what you think and how this could be improved. 
Thanks a bunch


Raw Sculpts:



Topology:

Game res w/ textures:

PyrZern

NO PNG ~!!!! JPG only !!!

The sculpt looks quite good, and the lowpoly seems ok. But I think the texture kills it. Can you post the UV layout as well ? Along with the final texture (diffuse/albedo) And if you can do something with her face... Would be nice.

Alemja

The textures are letting you down for sure, the materials aren't reading correctly, especially the metal. You also need to paint in some ambient lighting, it looks like your diffuse is mostly flat, get some color variation, gradients wear and tear in the diffuse and spec and you should be good.

Her face is also a little strange, the eyes are too big/wide and I think the rest of her face feels... long? not entirely sure.

You high poly and low poly look good though!

ReZilience55

Alemja said:

The textures are letting you down for sure, the materials aren't reading correctly, especially the metal. You also need to paint in some ambient lighting, it looks like your diffuse is mostly flat, get some color variation, gradients wear and tear in the diffuse and spec and you should be good.

Her face is also a little strange, the eyes are too big/wide and I think the rest of her face feels... long? not entirely sure.

You high poly and low poly look good though!

Okay thanks for this! I've started to make some decent changes. I'll post some updates later (it's 4:30 am... time to sleep haha)
Which metal were you talking about specifically? Or were you just talking about all of it?

ReZilience55

PyrZern said:

NO PNG ~!!!! JPG only !!!

The sculpt looks quite good, and the lowpoly seems ok. But I think the texture kills it. Can you post the UV layout as well ? Along with the final texture (diffuse/albedo) And if you can do something with her face... Would be nice.

Thank you! I've made some changes. I'll post them after some sleep

Alemja

ReZilience55 said:

Okay thanks for this! I've started to make some decent changes. I'll post some updates later (it's 4:30 am... time to sleep haha)
Which metal were you talking about specifically? Or were you just talking about all of it?

All of it for sure, the gold on the chestplate is probably the best but even then I feel like it can be pushed further. The black plates on the arms, shoulders, body and thighs don't feel like they are made out of metal at all. Give the specular some variation and a little bit of noise, accent edges and areas more hit by (top) lighting in order to make things read better.

ReZilience55

Alemja said:

ReZilience55 said:

Okay thanks for this! I've started to make some decent changes. I'll post some updates later (it's 4:30 am... time to sleep haha)
Which metal were you talking about specifically? Or were you just talking about all of it?

All of it for sure, the gold on the chestplate is probably the best but even then I feel like it can be pushed further. The black plates on the arms, shoulders, body and thighs don't feel like they are made out of metal at all. Give the specular some variation and a little bit of noise, accent edges and areas more hit by (top) lighting in order to make things read better.

Alright so I've made some tweaks. This concept is actually pretty strange to read. The straps on the arms, chest and legs look like they have metal structure but are brownish and seem as though they may be leathery as well. A lot of other tests I've seen have made the straps just purely metal and so in this pass I decided to do that. I think it definitely looks more metallic than my first post. Is this more in the direction you were talking about? I was trying to utilize gradients as well as pushing the spec in different areas. I also browned some of the leathers further and made the cloth less green and added the design to the rear cloth. I added a small amount of ambient on the skin around the body so I doesn't look quite as flat now. Let  me know what you think!  

Alemja

Now I'm having a hard time telling if the metal is a light color or if the spec is over-powering the diffuse, you may need to add gloss if that is the case. The skin and cloth still look flat, I'm not sure if it is the lighting though.

ReZilience55

Alemja said:

Now I'm having a hard time telling if the metal is a light color or if the spec is over-powering the diffuse, you may need to add gloss if that is the case. The skin and cloth still look flat, I'm not sure if it is the lighting though.

The test parameters only allow for a diffuse map and a gray-scale specular map. 

Texelion

But then... are you rendering this in PBR ? Guild Wars 2 is heavily stylized and handpainted with no PBR, so of course it's only diffuse with simple spec. Maybe you should try to paint it like the actual game characters with pre-PBR methods, not just using flat albedo and hoping for the shader to do the job ^^ ?

You're not that far honestly, but just check those models and try to do the same :

http://www.gamearthub.net/2013/07/24/guild-wars-2-character-art-by-donald-phan/#.WD52ILLhCCp

Alemja

So here is how you can handle gloss for the model:

• Via separate materials if different materials don't share the same geometry. This is difficult to do due to the triangle budget constraints.
• Plug your spec map into the gloss channel, not completely accurate and a bit of a hack but it gives a better result than just spec alone.

Here is some advice I gave someone else for the last time the internship was up, it is still relevant since the test has not changed for the past few years:
http://polycount.com/discussion/comment/2264938/#Comment_2264938

ReZilience55

Alemja said:

So here is how you can handle gloss for the model:

• Via separate materials if different materials don't share the same geometry. This is difficult to do due to the triangle budget constraints.
• Plug your spec map into the gloss channel, not completely accurate and a bit of a hack but it gives a better result than just spec alone.

Here is some advice I gave someone else for the last time the internship was up, it is still relevant since the test has not changed for the past few years:
http://polycount.com/discussion/comment/2264938/#Comment_2264938

Alright cool thanks! I've been using a method pretty similar to the one you described to the other artist. 
I've painted in many more high lights and low lights in the diffuse and spec.

I think it's getting there. It definitely looks better than my initial post. 
Update:

ReZilience55

Texelion said:

But then... are you rendering this in PBR ? Guild Wars 2 is heavily stylized and handpainted with no PBR, so of course it's only diffuse with simple spec. Maybe you should try to paint it like the actual game characters with pre-PBR methods, not just using flat albedo and hoping for the shader to do the job ^^ ?

You're not that far honestly, but just check those models and try to do the same :

http://www.gamearthub.net/2013/07/24/guild-wars-2-character-art-by-donald-phan/#.WD52ILLhCCp

Thanks for this! Needed a good kick in the head haha. I reduced the amount of effect the specular was taking over the shader and focused more on painting in the highlights and low lights throughout the metal and leather. It's starting to look a little better I believe!

Alemja

Another kick, this armor is already in game too, so you can compare it to yours - https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/24080/gw021.jpg

ReZilience55

Alemja said:

Another kick, this armor is already in game too, so you can compare it to yours - https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/24080/gw021.jpg

ahhhh thanks! I've been looking for this without dyes on it... I've found a bunch of in-game pictures of the stag armor but it has super bright colors on it which doesn't help me much haha. 

ReZilience55

Alemja said:

Another kick, this armor is already in game too, so you can compare it to yours - https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/24080/gw021.jpg

So I've been jumping back and forth between the lit and unlit settings on my shader to get an idea of how my painted in highlights and lowlights are reading.

I turned the specular down to where it didn't really show, So this is basically just a flat color render. I think the metals are reading better now with and without spec. 

With the spec turned back on + Some lighting: 

Alemja

It's looking better, but still not quite there.
The metal is the most obvious problem, I did a quick paint over to give you an idea:

You should never use white to paint highlights, except for the absolute brightest edge highlights.
Contrast needs to be adjusted and more shadows need to be painted in
The chest plate is the best example in the paint over

For the face you are going to have to paint some of the features there, in your full material render her face turns into a blurry mush because it has no definition.

You have some shadows on the shoulders that make little sense, they are too strong, I would find a way to tone them down.

Keep going!

ReZilience55

Thanks a ton for the paintover! I found some older successful art tests and studied the texturing as well as your paintover.

I re-painted the fur and overlayed an AO bake on top of things to increase contrast/shadows. I painted over most of the straps to give them a browner/rustier look. The spec has much less of an effect on the shader now. It's starting to read better I believe? I also painted in some of the facial features so it doesn't look like a mush like you said haha. 

ReZilience55

Alemja said:

It's looking better, but still not quite there.
The metal is the most obvious problem, I did a quick paint over to give you an idea:

You should never use white to paint highlights, except for the absolute brightest edge highlights.
Contrast needs to be adjusted and more shadows need to be painted in
The chest plate is the best example in the paint over

For the face you are going to have to paint some of the features there, in your full material render her face turns into a blurry mush because it has no definition.

You have some shadows on the shoulders that make little sense, they are too strong, I would find a way to tone them down.

Keep going!

I've seen a lot of others (successful tests) portray the strap material as a VERY brown material. What do you think of this pass?

slosh

Overall, the texture is looking pretty solid but the face needs a lot of work.  It was already quite odd in the sculpt and the texture is amplifying that.  These are some of the faces in GW 2.  They have some of the prettiest faces in MMOs in my opinion.  All of them are super feminine and soft...try to mimic this.  I also added a sample of what I think is a pretty good example of a hand painted face.  GW2 has a similar style I'm betting...very soft, painterly, and clean.  You can compare with how yours looks and easily see the difference.  The face is really what most people will focus on first so you really have to nail that.  I would completely redo the face.  Get the eyes, nose, and mouth placement very close to what you see below in their models.  Put the resculpt up here as WIP for feedback...i will certainly give you some if you need it.  Then, once the sculpt looks good, move onto re-texturing the face.

Texelion

The color scheme is nice, even if the metal is more gray in the original, having it a bit golden looks good. How does it look if you desaturate the metal a bit ( like the circle on the "belt" ) ?

I don't know if it's due to lighting but some brown leather parts look a bit too dark. 

Edit : I agree for the face, even if I think that the art test only concerns the armor and not the character itself, having a good looking face would improve the overall look.

ReZilience55

slosh said:

Overall, the texture is looking pretty solid but the face needs a lot of work.  It was already quite odd in the sculpt and the texture is amplifying that.  These are some of the faces in GW 2.  They have some of the prettiest faces in MMOs in my opinion.  All of them are super feminine and soft...try to mimic this.  I also added a sample of what I think is a pretty good example of a hand painted face.  GW2 has a similar style I'm betting...very soft, painterly, and clean.  You can compare with how yours looks and easily see the difference.  The face is really what most people will focus on first so you really have to nail that.  I would completely redo the face.  Get the eyes, nose, and mouth placement very close to what you see below in their models.  Put the resculpt up here as WIP for feedback...i will certainly give you some if you need it.  Then, once the sculpt looks good, move onto re-texturing the face.

Thanks for this! The test description said that this was mostly an armor study and to not leave areas with skin empty for the sake of awkwardness. So I've been spending most of my time focusing on the armor bits. BUT with that being said this is still a good chance to learn and improve so I won't just ignore the face flaws! I'll do some facial touch-ups so it doesn't look as strange. I'll keep your reference in mind while doing so. 

ReZilience55

Texelion said:

The color scheme is nice, even if the metal is more gray in the original, having it a bit golden looks good. How does it look if you desaturate the metal a bit ( like the circle on the "belt" ) ?

I don't know if it's due to lighting but some brown leather parts look a bit too dark. 

Edit : I agree for the face, even if I think that the art test only concerns the armor and not the character itself, having a good looking face would improve the overall look.

Thanks! And yes, I'm working on the face right now. I layered an AO bake on top of the texture map to add some darker crevices and contrast and forgot to buff out the dark spots around the laugh-lines so I realize now she looks a little neanderthal-ish haha.

 The concept art for this the straps and chest bits have a brown/goldish tone to them. So while I've seen some tests make it metal I've also seen some make it completely brown like leather. I think for the sake of a nice color scheme the goldish brown scheme seems to work a little better and is more accurate to the colors used in the concept art. I tried to make a happy medium of how it looks in guild wars and how the concept art reads. 

ReZilience55

Current update. When I redid the fur I was able to knock off about 100 tris. Also, the face looks a little more delicate/soft and less alien-like/dirty.

Narrowed the nose and pinked the lips as well as blushed the lips and contoured different areas. 
It's almost there!

pixelpatron

While subtly improved......you band-aidified the face and didn't take slosh's advice. Take a chance.....let's see the head model, no texture high poly or the low with your ambient/normal.