it took 2 weeks to get used to the clicky workflow, get rid of the bad 3DS Max habits (hotkeys).
...What? Surely I'm misunderstanding your point here. I'll let you elaborate before I go on a rant on the long terms health effect of the 'clicky workflow'.
I was simply stating that I was able to work from day one, because the tools are in your face with icons, name and shortcuts. What I wrote is that it took me 2 weeks to get used to the Modo hotkeys when I kept using instead 3DS Max hotkeys. That's just me being slow to unlearn and relearn. Nothing really to do with Modo or any other app. Go ahead on the clicky workflow.
Na, I knew it didn't make sense, just couldn't read between the lines.
"I've never tried anything that beat Blender for bypassing the mouse as much as possible." I feel the same.
I have some problems with my right wrist at the moment because of too clicky tools and stupid repetitive workflows. I had to stop using the mouse so i did some concepts instead with a real pen. That worked pretty well so i played around with Blender using my Wacom for the first time and that too works astonishing well. I think i will just skip the mouse for a while and start using the pen more. IMHO Mouse stresses my hand/wrist 10x more than a pen. Give it a try.
"IMHO Mouse stresses my hand/wrist 10x more than a pen."
I'll elaborate on this : the reason why almost all 3d programs are very stressful to the wrist is because they require the user to click, hold down the click, drag and then release in order to manipulate a component (and that's on top of the fact that some programs are noticeably better than others at picking up the mesh component that the user actually wants to select, a task at which Maya is probably the worst).
Blender however not only accurately predicts the component that you want to select (no need to be right on top of it, one just has to click close enough) but also only requires you to tap a keyboard key to enter transformation mode. Once that is done, one can then move the mouse freely without having to keep the click down.
This makes a world of difference as it completely removes wrist strain while modeling. It works pretty well with pen input indeed, but it also makes mouse input very fluid and precise. Just another good reason to give the program a try.
(and that's on top of the fact that some programs are noticeably better than others at picking up the mesh component that the user actually wants to select, a task at which Maya is probably the worst).
now, while it would never occur to me to defend maya in any way - in fact i wish this thing just did me the favor and died in a corner - i am however pretty sure that it allows you to adjust the click box size in the preferences, which should make it easier to hit selections. my feeling when using blender always has been that that's pretty much what it does too, but by default.
There is indeed a click box size adjustment in Maya, but the issue is that regardless of big or small it is not so great at picking the intended components (for instance : using a big clickbox would reach components further away from the pointer, but doesn't help with precision ; and inversely, reducing the click box allows for a tighter area of selection, but doesn't help with precision either). It also doesn't help that the pointer has that useless little square to it when in component selection mode.
It's just another one of these things that is both hard to describe and hard to get a feel for until trying another solution with a much more elegant behavior Anyways that's a bit of a side topic.
- - - - -
To anyone worried that their app of choice might die or be canned, there's a simple solution : contact your reseller and secure a full license of the current version, not tied to any subscription model. And if the company making your software doesn't offer such an option, take a minute to consider what it means for you as a customer and maybe start shopping around for alternatives.
The truth is, even if Blender has no real contender ergonomics wise, there's simply way too many good features and plugins available for Max to let it go. Cloth sim, MassFX, the modifier stack and excellent spline support for stock features; Rayfire, RailClone, Miauu's packs and a myriad other scripts for 3rd party add-ins. I use all those constantly in my workflow.
Combined with principles shared by Perna to create proper keyboard shortcut layout, and now with tools like Keyhydra coming out, it makes up for a very fluid, enjoyable experience. Stability wise I've been using 2016 since service pack 1 and I only had a few crashes, and pretty much always because I was checking out new scripts grabbed from Scriptspot. Good enough for what I do!
Those are all things I miss too much when I try any other package and I always come back to Max for this reason. Many of the issues and limitations brought up in this thread can be removed by looking around and finding the right script or plugin for the job. Is it ideal? Probably not. But the fact vanilla Unity is so barebone and requires a lot of customization doesn't seem to hurt its success. I don't see that as a real issue with Max either.
Having tried pretty much every major 3D package on the market at this point I'd be perfectly happy in Max if it wasn't for chronic wrist pain (Wacom plus 3DS Max did not yield very good results last time I tried...)
Having tried pretty much every major 3D package on the market at this point I'd be perfectly happy in Max if it wasn't for chronic wrist pain (Wacom plus 3DS Max did not yield very good results last time I tried...)
Have you tried a space pilot? It helped me immensely when I was having chronic wrist pain. It has a learning curve but it is a superior way to navigate 3d space once you have tackled the learning curve.
Have you tried a space pilot? It helped me immensely when I was having chronic wrist pain. It has a learning curve but it is a superior way to navigate 3d space once you have tackled the learning curve.
Thanks for linking this, it's always great to see new options for input while we wait for brainwave readers or VR to bring a real revolution in the way we interact with our favorite software...
I think I came across it while researching alternative input solution but it looked so strange I didn't really consider it further. Is it really a viable way to use a 3D package? It looks like some sort of improved trackball at first glance.
Yes, it's designed from the ground up for quickly and efficiently navigating 3d space. Conversely a mouse and a keyboard are not designed for navigating 3d space at all. A space pilot will significantly cut down the wear and tear on your wrists, and increase your productivity.
The learning curve is what throws people off it. You will feel like a total n00b again unable to do basic navigation at first. If you can handle the initial hit to your pride and stick with it you will soon be doing things that wouldn't be possible with a mouse and keyboard, and doing them quickly.
Just a little note here. If you're using Zbrush and its navigation is causing you some repetitive stress, you won't be saved by the space mouse because Zbrush doesn't support it.
Yeah Zbrush doesn't support the space mouse, very frustrating. 3D-coat does though. If the pain is severe enough it could be worth switching applications to avoid permanent damage and more serious medical conditions down the road.
Just a little note here. If you're using Zbrush and its navigation is causing you some repetitive stress, you won't be saved by the space mouse because Zbrush doesn't support it.
Yeah Zbrush doesn't support the space mouse, very frustrating. 3D-coat does though. If the pain is severe enough it could be worth switching applications to avoid permanent damage and more serious medical conditions down the road.
I use a Cintiq when doing Zbrush stuff, and the pen is easy on my wounds.
I'm going to research this thing a bit more, unfortunately I don't think I can find a place where it's demo'ed near where I live, which is a shame because 300 bucks is quite an investment. Just curious, Aabel, if it's really superior compared to traditional input solution, why didn't you stick with it in the end? From what you said I gather you only used it while you had wrist pain yourself.
Edit: forgot to add I'm a southpaw, to add insult to injury.
A chasm of often baseless opinions. People typically learn one, then later down the road they open the other, poke around a little, think to themselves "Yuck, this is awful (read "different than I'm used to)!" then go around talking smack online for the next five years.
Totally true.
And if someone that contracted you simply says that you should use "x or y" program instead of your, then just go ahead and learn it. If you're an experienced 3d modeller, you will probably be able to adapt pretty fast to another 3d app since everything is pretty much the same.
It took me 10 years to get to that point where i feel comfortable in whatever 3D application somebody throws at me. Not saying that i am good or experienced with Max or Maya for example, but my fundamentals are strong enough that i can be effective in whatever tool someone gives me if i put in some time.
I usually keep my ego strongly in check, but when it comes to learn interesting software, i indulge in power-fantasies of mastering them all and becoming an superadaptive digital über-artist. I'll add to my arsenal, but above all i aim to learn how to use/choose the right tool for the right job.
@Mant1k0re There is a cheaper basic version called space navigator available. It costs around 99$, but it misses the additional buttons. I don't think i would need buttons, so i would buy it, but my budget is limited atm.
I use a Cintiq when doing Zbrush stuff, and the pen is easy on my wounds.
I'm going to research this thing a bit more, unfortunately I don't think I can find a place where it's demo'ed near where I live, which is a shame because 300 bucks is quite an investment. Just curious, Aabel, if it's really superior compared to traditional input solution, why didn't you stick with it in the end? From what you said I gather you only used it while you had wrist pain yourself.
Edit: forgot to add I'm a southpaw, to add insult to injury.
Thank you
I still use my space mouse! I started using it because I was suffering from intense wrist pain on the job. I am also left handed as well, it works well left or right handed. They have a smaller model that is just a navigation puck and I think it's under $100. Yes, it's really a vast improvement over the traditional input method of mouse and keyboard. Just remember it has a learning curve, just like learning to navigate 3d space with a keyboard and mouse had a learning curve. The space mouse learning curve is much more frustrating because you already know how to navigate with a mouse and keyboard in your applications and you have to learn that basic skill again. The learning curve is short though.
I use a Cintiq when doing Zbrush stuff, and the pen is easy on my wounds.
I'm going to research this thing a bit more, unfortunately I don't think I can find a place where it's demo'ed near where I live, which is a shame because 300 bucks is quite an investment. Just curious, Aabel, if it's really superior compared to traditional input solution, why didn't you stick with it in the end? From what you said I gather you only used it while you had wrist pain yourself.
Edit: forgot to add I'm a southpaw, to add insult to injury.
Thank you
I still use my space mouse! I started using it because I was suffering from intense wrist pain on the job. I am also left handed as well, it works well left or right handed. They have a smaller model that is just a navigation puck and I think it's under $100. Yes, it's really a vast improvement over the traditional input method of mouse and keyboard. Just remember it has a learning curve, just like learning to navigate 3d space with a keyboard and mouse had a learning curve. The space mouse learning curve is much more frustrating because you already know how to navigate with a mouse and keyboard in your applications and you have to learn that basic skill again. The learning curve is short though.
When using a space mouse to navigate the scene, does it mean that all programs have the same viewport navigation, because you use the space mouse?
During the zbrush summit at the end of this month I hope that pixologic announces that they've inserted 3ds Max into zbrush. Or at least the low poly modeling aspects.
When using a space mouse to navigate the scene, does it mean that all programs have the same viewport navigation, because you use the space mouse?
For the most part, sometimes the Y axis is flipped and you press down to go up instead of pull up to go up. Settings that you save per software are stored on the space pilot so if you move machines your settings go with you. It does make using more software easier in my opinion.
Replies
Na, I knew it didn't make sense, just couldn't read between the lines.
"I've never tried anything that beat Blender for bypassing the mouse as much as possible."
I feel the same.
I have some problems with my right wrist at the moment because of too clicky tools and stupid repetitive workflows. I had to stop using the mouse so i did some concepts instead with a real pen.
That worked pretty well so i played around with Blender using my Wacom for the first time and that too works astonishing well.
I think i will just skip the mouse for a while and start using the pen more.
IMHO Mouse stresses my hand/wrist 10x more than a pen.
Give it a try.
I'll elaborate on this : the reason why almost all 3d programs are very stressful to the wrist is because they require the user to click, hold down the click, drag and then release in order to manipulate a component (and that's on top of the fact that some programs are noticeably better than others at picking up the mesh component that the user actually wants to select, a task at which Maya is probably the worst).
Blender however not only accurately predicts the component that you want to select (no need to be right on top of it, one just has to click close enough) but also only requires you to tap a keyboard key to enter transformation mode. Once that is done, one can then move the mouse freely without having to keep the click down.
This makes a world of difference as it completely removes wrist strain while modeling. It works pretty well with pen input indeed, but it also makes mouse input very fluid and precise. Just another good reason to give the program a try.
now, while it would never occur to me to defend maya in any way - in fact i wish this thing just did me the favor and died in a corner
It's just another one of these things that is both hard to describe and hard to get a feel for until trying another solution with a much more elegant behavior
- - - - -
To anyone worried that their app of choice might die or be canned, there's a simple solution : contact your reseller and secure a full license of the current version, not tied to any subscription model. And if the company making your software doesn't offer such an option, take a minute to consider what it means for you as a customer and maybe start shopping around for alternatives.
The truth is, even if Blender has no real contender ergonomics wise, there's simply way too many good features and plugins available for Max to let it go. Cloth sim, MassFX, the modifier stack and excellent spline support for stock features; Rayfire, RailClone, Miauu's packs and a myriad other scripts for 3rd party add-ins. I use all those constantly in my workflow.
Combined with principles shared by Perna to create proper keyboard shortcut layout, and now with tools like Keyhydra coming out, it makes up for a very fluid, enjoyable experience. Stability wise I've been using 2016 since service pack 1 and I only had a few crashes, and pretty much always because I was checking out new scripts grabbed from Scriptspot. Good enough for what I do!
Those are all things I miss too much when I try any other package and I always come back to Max for this reason. Many of the issues and limitations brought up in this thread can be removed by looking around and finding the right script or plugin for the job. Is it ideal? Probably not. But the fact vanilla Unity is so barebone and requires a lot of customization doesn't seem to hurt its success. I don't see that as a real issue with Max either.
Having tried pretty much every major 3D package on the market at this point I'd be perfectly happy in Max if it wasn't for chronic wrist pain (Wacom plus 3DS Max did not yield very good results last time I tried...)
I think I came across it while researching alternative input solution but it looked so strange I didn't really consider it further. Is it really a viable way to use a 3D package? It looks like some sort of improved trackball at first glance.
The learning curve is what throws people off it. You will feel like a total n00b again unable to do basic navigation at first. If you can handle the initial hit to your pride and stick with it you will soon be doing things that wouldn't be possible with a mouse and keyboard, and doing them quickly.
I'm going to research this thing a bit more, unfortunately I don't think I can find a place where it's demo'ed near where I live, which is a shame because 300 bucks is quite an investment. Just curious, Aabel, if it's really superior compared to traditional input solution, why didn't you stick with it in the end? From what you said I gather you only used it while you had wrist pain yourself.
Edit: forgot to add I'm a southpaw, to add insult to injury.
Thank you
And if someone that contracted you simply says that you should use "x or y" program instead of your, then just go ahead and learn it. If you're an experienced 3d modeller, you will probably be able to adapt pretty fast to another 3d app since everything is pretty much the same.
I usually keep my ego strongly in check, but when it comes to learn interesting software, i indulge in power-fantasies of mastering them all and becoming an superadaptive digital über-artist.
I'll add to my arsenal, but above all i aim to learn how to use/choose the right tool for the right job.
@Mant1k0re
There is a cheaper basic version called space navigator available.
It costs around 99$, but it misses the additional buttons.
I don't think i would need buttons, so i would buy it, but my budget is limited atm.
When using a space mouse to navigate the scene, does it mean that all programs have the same viewport navigation, because you use the space mouse?