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VFX production in Japan.. what's wrong?

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Hello everyone. It's my first post..

So I'm currently working as a VFX coordinator, and I just wanted to know what people outside of Japan thought about Japanese CGI/VFX companies.

I was wondering why we never get the chance to work with Hollywood movies..
whereas productions in China and Korea have such opportunities.

It would be great if anyone can share with me some opinions that can't be heard from within.


Thanks in advance. :)

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  • MrHobo
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    MrHobo polycounter lvl 13
    Hmmm IMO, when I think of Japans CG/VFX industry I think great 100% CG films, trailers and good looking games... But when it comes to integrating vfx with live action, it never seems to work out too well. 
    I dont know a ton about China's VFX industry but I know Koreas VFX industry made its mark internationally more or less, with The Host in '06. I cant really remember if Japan has really had a breakout international VFX integrated film like that, which say "We're here and open for business."

    Edit: i just remembered "Red Cliff" in '08 that films vfx more or less said "Look what we can do" for China. 
  • artquest
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    artquest polycounter lvl 14
    Subsidies man. If your government won't pay for 25% of the vfx budget then big budget movies won't even look into doing business there. I honestly don't think it has much to do with quality of the work. I have to deal with some very poor quality of work coming out of India and fix it here in LA if it looks bad enough. It's all about cost. :( because I'm on a day rate so it doesn't matter to the higher ups. I should clarify this is past vfx companies. Where I work now pays proper overtime. But that isn't the norm.
  • Jonas Ronnegard
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    they just don't put money into it here, they spend the little budget they have on getting the popular people which doesn't even have to be a professional actor/actress, akb etc... take random manga/anime and make it into a live action drama/movie,, it's usually quite bad production wise but as the manga was probably good to begin with some can be very good. But they have learned that they don't have to spend a lot on money on quality because it can sell well anyway.

    Same with games in Japan, they put a lot of effort into the characters, but environment wise they usually don't care much.
  • Lamont
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    Lamont polycounter lvl 15
    Jonas nailed it on the head, it just doesn't have the money behind it.

    CM's on the other hand. I remember seeing this CM for the first time and thought "Damn, I wanna see this movie..."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GagQGLZtq54

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYVXIAU9fr0
  • thomasp
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    MrHobo said:
    but I know Koreas VFX industry made its mark internationally more or less, with The Host in '06. I cant really remember if Japan has really had a breakout international VFX integrated film like that, which say "We're here and open for business."
    this might be of interest: http://www.cgsociety.org/index.php/CGSFeatures/CGSFeatureSpecial/oh_strange_horrors

  • MrHobo
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    MrHobo polycounter lvl 13
    thomasp said:
    MrHobo said:
    but I know Koreas VFX industry made its mark internationally more or less, with The Host in '06. I cant really remember if Japan has really had a breakout international VFX integrated film like that, which say "We're here and open for business."
    this might be of interest: http://www.cgsociety.org/index.php/CGSFeatures/CGSFeatureSpecial/oh_strange_horrors

    Well fuck me with a breadstick... I feel rather foolish now, but I did learn something new.
  • Steve Schulze
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    Steve Schulze polycounter lvl 18
    I work with a few of the (Australian) guys who did practical effects on that movie.
  • MmAaXx
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    MmAaXx polycounter lvl 10
    beacuse it is a closed society and they have no idea of what they are doing.

    just and few examples,
     they took 3 years to make "stand by me" the doraemon movie, and it is not even looking good.
    they spent more than 4 years for captain harlock, and all the sub characters are super creepy.
    the normal maps of darksouls 2 characters are made in photoshop with the nvidia plugin.

    they produce for sure good stuff too, but it is rare and most of the time the pipeline is totally fucked up.

    they really need to renew the entire industry, they are stuck in the 90s.
    (I work in japan from 10 years ago)
  • Marine
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    Marine polycounter lvl 19
    thomasp said:
    How does this relate to Korea or Japan's VFX production when everything was handled by a US company?
  • AtticusMars
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    AtticusMars greentooth
    @MmAaXx Is that because of poor management or do people just not know what they're doing all the way through the pipeline?

    Your post seems to reinforce what was said in the FF15 thread where someone mentioned that the character artists had to rig and animate their own models.



  • artquest
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    artquest polycounter lvl 14
    You know MMAAXX. That makes a lot of sense. I heard from a friend that went to school in Japan that moving around from company to company is not really done in Japan. It's like, once you get hired somewhere you won't be going back if you leave. I feel like this could have a lot to do with the pipeline being so far behind. Every time I rotate between companies I learn new things/write new scripts and tools. Then bring them to the next place I work and share them. The fox engine for MGS5 was the first time in years that I saw a studio from Japan  really pushing what is possible with current gen technology. 
  • MmAaXx
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    MmAaXx polycounter lvl 10
    yeah...

    I mean I used to work under those conditions.
    in my opinion the problems are 4 and they are related to the pipeline.

    1* the artists are not motivated, because the companies use to put stupid rules to overcontrol the freedom of people, see Konami. And often they use the artists like tools, not like artists.
    In my Japanese career it happened more than one time to see companies spend a lot of money to hire some good artist from other country to bring some fresh air in the pipeline and suddenly put on top of him some of the old guy that didn't permit any change. So the good guy left, the japanese learnt nothing, end of the story.

    2* 99% of the time the pipeline is simply wrong, they don't know how to comunicate each others, they always pass through the hierarchy.
    example: I am a senior modeler, I need to talk with a senior animator to solve a problem, well most of the time I have to ask to my lead to talk to the animator lead that asks to the animator he info I need. its easy to understand how awful is work like this.

    3* the people tend spend the entire life in a single company, japanese people love to have life terms contract, even if they have to sign for a shitty salary and shitty conditions. So a lot of the big guys in the companies are really old and they simply don't want to listen, they are really scared to lose their leadership because they know that the NEVER gonna find another job in the industry. Thats why a lot of artists didn't left konami after Kojima left. Even the scandals even they are going to make pachinko for the rest of their lifes. In Japan is also really complicated to fire someone with this kind of contract.

    4* everyone has opinions and no sense of humor in work enviroment, if I'm working on a character I have to listen the opinion of the concept artist that doesn't match with the opinion of the cg director that doesn't match with the director, So to not hurt the feelings eachothers they tend to find super stupid compromise, that basically ruin the original concept.

    BUT, even those HUGE problems, I see a spot of brightness, at least Japan has still some nice ideas and IPs, they trust in their power, they have money to invest to develop good products and they have good history about innovation. 

    cheers.
  • thomasp
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    Marine said:
    thomasp said:
    How does this relate to Korea or Japan's VFX production when everything was handled by a US company?
    the comment was related to mrhobo's assumption that 'the host''s vfx were done in korea.
  • Kwramm
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    Kwramm interpolator
    Sounds like confucianism at work. I see some degrees of this in China too. Communication and overcontrol can also be an issue here. The rest is forunately not there.

    One thing I wondered about Japan though - it seems there are even less people who speak English than in China. And here in China we have problems with finding the latest learning materials for the latest apps in Chinese. Introducing Substance wasn't easy until we translated and made out own trainings. How is that in Japan?
  • Jonas Ronnegard
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    Kwramm said:
    Sounds like confucianism at work. I see some degrees of this in China too. Communication and overcontrol can also be an issue here. The rest is forunately not there.

    One thing I wondered about Japan though - it seems there are even less people who speak English than in China. And here in China we have problems with finding the latest learning materials for the latest apps in Chinese. Introducing Substance wasn't easy until we translated and made out own trainings. How is that in Japan?
    Well english is a big problem, as most professional 3D artists in Japan don't do much 3D on their spare time and don't share like we do, reinventing the wheel is a common thing for every company, and adding that they don't have access to anything but japanese information makes it even worse. Allegorithmic is one company that have done a lot to promote in Japan and they even came to places I worked to teach, so that's actually getting some traction over here, but other new stuff many wouldn't even know what it is.
  • Anchang-Style
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    MmAaXx said:
    yeah...

    I mean I used to work under those conditions.
    in my opinion the problems are 4 and they are related to the pipeline.

    1* the artists are not motivated, because the companies use to put stupid rules to overcontrol the freedom of people, see Konami. And often they use the artists like tools, not like artists.
    In my Japanese career it happened more than one time to see companies spend a lot of money to hire some good artist from other country to bring some fresh air in the pipeline and suddenly put on top of him some of the old guy that didn't permit any change. So the good guy left, the japanese learnt nothing, end of the story.

    2* 99% of the time the pipeline is simply wrong, they don't know how to comunicate each others, they always pass through the hierarchy.
    example: I am a senior modeler, I need to talk with a senior animator to solve a problem, well most of the time I have to ask to my lead to talk to the animator lead that asks to the animator he info I need. its easy to understand how awful is work like this.

    3* the people tend spend the entire life in a single company, japanese people love to have life terms contract, even if they have to sign for a shitty salary and shitty conditions. So a lot of the big guys in the companies are really old and they simply don't want to listen, they are really scared to lose their leadership because they know that the NEVER gonna find another job in the industry. Thats why a lot of artists didn't left konami after Kojima left. Even the scandals even they are going to make pachinko for the rest of their lifes. In Japan is also really complicated to fire someone with this kind of contract.

    4* everyone has opinions and no sense of humor in work enviroment, if I'm working on a character I have to listen the opinion of the concept artist that doesn't match with the opinion of the cg director that doesn't match with the director, So to not hurt the feelings eachothers they tend to find super stupid compromise, that basically ruin the original concept.

    BUT, even those HUGE problems, I see a spot of brightness, at least Japan has still some nice ideas and IPs, they trust in their power, they have money to invest to develop good products and they have good history about innovation. 

    cheers.
    Sounds like textbook japanese company enviroments, something that drove a lot of my professors and teacher to utter insanity. It also sounds a lot like what the Taka Kawasaki of Epic Japan said in an interview, that even if you work in a job in the gaming industry, that should have a feeling of creativity, spirit and fun to a certain degree, japanese in the creative industry still don't feel like they are allowed that since work is not supposed to be fun.
  • Doc holliday
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    Doc holliday polycounter lvl 7
    "the normal maps of darksouls 2 characters are made in photoshop with the nvidia plugin."

    fyi most of the characters in heroes of the storm were done this way. Sometimes it has its advantages,  At least when they were being made.



  • artquest
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    artquest polycounter lvl 14
    "the normal maps of darksouls 2 characters are made in photoshop with the nvidia plugin."

    fyi most of the characters in heroes of the storm were done this way. Sometimes it has its advantages,  At least when they were being made.



    Pretty sure they used nDo for Heroes? nvidia plugin is Terribad with a capital T.  Also I think more of the newer hero models are sculpted in zbrush to start.
  • Doc holliday
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    Doc holliday polycounter lvl 7
    Individual artists had their own workflows, but most of heroes, especially early on were done with hand painted normals.  Had to do with the fact that most the artists were really good at painting textures. Also the engine at the time worked really well with the Nvidia plugin. 
    nvidia plugin is Terribad with a capital T
    Oh  I know lol
  • Blond
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    Blond polycounter lvl 9
    Interesting thread. I found this interview which is spot on with what MmAaXx just said.

    About Final Fantasy XV team restructuring:

    http://www.famitsu.com/matome/ff15/interview01_EN.html

    --“So with all this going on, how did you tackle the project?”
    Tabata: I brought together the game team, movie team, and technical team to create a new, independent team. This team then merged with the former FF Versus XIII team to make FFXV, forming the predecessor to the current Business Division 2. 
    We reset the hierarchy of the whole team. We had section leads who had been in the position for a dozen years. This of course led to a clearly defined hierarchy among the staff, which not only affected the team’s chance at succeeding, but also forces each team member to adhere to the subjective values of their supervisor. In the hope of putting aside the unnecessary hierarchy that existed between them, I told the team that we were equals in a free-for-all environment. (laughs)

    --“You created a meritocracy.” 

    Tabata: Yes. Before anything, I met with each member of the team and told them, “It’s up to you whether you stay or not. If you stay, you’ll have to abide by my changes. I don’t care how things were done in the past.” To get a clear idea of what each individual could bring to the team, I asked them what they were capable of. Next I assigned them their positions; mixing things up by assigning an all-round, balanced developer to head the preproduction phase, telling a former lead that for certain phases they’d be working under someone else, as although the quality of their work was impressive, they were less great at coordinating their section and negotiating with others. We really argued back and forth!

    --“I bet you did…!”

    Tabata: But there were a lot of people who were upbeat about the changes; many of them felt they were learning and growing, so spirits were high. We removed the invisible power balances and streamlined the chain of command, so everyone was making the most of their abilities. Many were trying their hand at something new, something previously out of reach, and this was being reflected in the game itself.

    --"Sounds like you were thorough. I feel the success of your restructuring pivoted on the fact that each member of the team shared the passion to create a successful FF title, to rally their strength and, dare I say, make a comeback." 

    Tabata: That's right. The FF franchise might be struggling, but deep down I think each of us knew we were yet to be defeated. People often talk about how Japan has been trailing behind the West since entering the HD-age, but we want people to know that battle wasn't lost by us, we're only just stepping up to the plate. I was certain that Japanese games would be able to compete on the world stage, but as we ourselves weren't working with HD platforms at the time, we hadn’t even entered the race back then. That's why we're keen to take up the mantle and succeed. Don’t count us out just yet, we’re just getting started.




    See, some of them do want the situation to improve.



  • skankerzero
    MrHobo said:
    with The Host in '06. I cant really remember if Japan has really had a breakout international VFX integrated film like that, which say "We're here and open for business."
    The Host was a South Korean film with VFX mostly done is the US.
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