re going rate for outsourcing in china/india

Ruz

it did occur to me that i am getting less work these days since I am being undercut by outsourcing companies
mainly from china and india. Nothing against that, just wondering how much they are charging so I know what i am competing with. Here In the UK the daily rate can vary from 100 to 200 pounds a day. some folks may get to charge up to 250 a day but I never have.
I can either knock my prices right down to compete( which i doubt I can) or  go an get a job in tesco

Kevin Albers

The day rate for decent outsource studios in China and India is not below the 100 pounds you mention. As an outsource manager, my guess is that people are mostly looking for groups of people (i.e. outsource studios) to do work, as opposed to individual contractors. Therefore I don't think you need to lower your prices to below 100 pounds a day. Instead, maybe look around to join a distributed outsource team, or look for a gig at a studio (either a game studio or an outsource studio).

Good luck!

VelvetElvis

Kevin Albers said:

The day rate for decent outsource studios in China and India is not below the 100 pounds you mention. As an outsource manager, my guess is that people are mostly looking for groups of people (i.e. outsource studios) to do work, as opposed to individual contractors. Therefore I don't think you need to lower your prices to below 100 pounds a day. Instead, maybe look around to join a distributed outsource team, or look for a gig at a studio (either a game studio or an outsource studio).

Good luck!

The key word there is decent outsource studios. However, you can't win a wage war against the sweatshops unless you like eating cold soup by the light of a candle. Your day rate is probably the day rate for a team of 5 artists over there for the less reputable studios. The best thing to do to compete against el-cheapo outsourcing is to really inform your clients that your service and skills are equal to your rate, ie you get way you pay for.

Blaisoid

 I suspect that you are being undercut by a whole lot of people who don't necessarily live in china or india.  The fact that GBP is a strong currency doesn't really help.
But despite my rate being lower than yours I've been getting less offers these days as well; I think freelance market is just getting more harsh to almost everyone, except for the clients...

Ruz

Kevin Albers - I much prefer working as a solo artist for clients, so probably would not do that unless
I was very close friends with the artists I was working with and it was like an equal partnership( or maybe
me and an animator and a concept artist so we section off the work )
yeah i don't really fancy working for that kind of rates, but you know we all have bills to pay and I have a lot of experience
so unless I am making a living wage on a job, it's just not worth it.

I think you are right  Blaisoid , not much work coming in of late , lots of time wasters recently though
From what I have heard some studios are now loathe to outsource because of the secretive way in which they
conduct business and are reluctant to let the work outside the studio. not sure how much truth there is in that

I am just starting to think that it's  just a numbers game

I think the chinese outsourcers are taking a lot of work, seen it  in quite a few studios of late that I have been to or had
contacts with. I am sure the quality they knock out must be acceptable or they would n't get the work but on price
at least i can't compete and they are studios rather than solo artists like me.
tough times indeed

Eric Chadwick

It's really hit or miss using Asia outsource teams, at least for the work we've been sending out. Environment assets, characters, effects, animation. It's been tough to get consistent quality. We have one studio that's been doing good characters and animations, but others that sometimes do decent enviro or fx, then the next day it's really dismal. The studio head and publisher are dead-set on using overseas talent, so we persevere. I would love to use Western talent, but they won't let me.

Bletzkarn

I heard that the general health of game design in the UK is in decline at the moment, or at the very least it's very volatile.

Ruz

Eric, I guess it's just down to cost  - maybe if I was running a studio i would do the same thing I guess
yeah Bletzkarn, not seen many character jobs advertised of late

RyanB

Have you tried supplementing your income by selling assets online?

Ruz

RyanB - never really got in to that. i need an art director to kick me in the right direction, otherwise I just mess about
endlessy redoing stuff:/

Kwramm

as far as I know AAA stuff usually doesn't go to small outsourcers. Too much hassle managing a a load of independent outsourcers, all with different workflows, quality standards and communication requirements. Stuff gets usually outsourced in packages - chars, envs, vehicles, VFX. My studio usually doesn't compete with individuals. We compete with other outsourcers (in Taiwan, China, Eastern Europe and the USA) who take jobs for batches of dozens of AAA assets. Price is definitely a factor though, but it also makes ramp-up and ramp-down easier for the client.

The second factor is time. Some clients give us extreme deadlines for assets. However, these days, in AAA, this doesn't mean crunching more hours. You can crunch more hours, but it won't help. These days you need to leverage new tools and workflows - Quixel, Substance, Houdini, etc. to cut it. That's mostly for realistic work.

Maybe it's different for non-AAA stuff and smaller projects, or mobile. Is that what you are working on mostly? Because I can imagine the competition in that area is much, much tougher. Investment in hardware is less and talent isn't a problem, e.g. here in China. Art schools are very good. I know, here in China, there are many smaller outsourcing studios. 5 - 20 man operations, with all kinds of varying quality levels. They are usually going for the small outsourcing contracts and mobile - like for all the app store games with their interchangable Kabam / King / Zynga like art styles.

Ruz

Kwramm - yeah i mainly do mobile stuff these days, I do the realistic stuff as a hobby mainly, so its slightly cartoony type stuff .
I think these days it nuts for me to do realistic work it takes so much longer, but I get the same money as for more cartoony stuff.
It's a no brainer really.
I get what you are saying about volume of work and obviously I have only so many hours in the day.
it's tough for me really as I can't really compete here unless I start my own studio( for volume of work), but 'still' I could n't compete on price.

BTW I have nothing against chinese or indian people, it's simple economics and  really don't blame them to take
advantage of the situation - sucks for me though:)

my one option may be to get in to film/vfx stuff as I did n't really enjoy doing advertising work.

Kwramm

With AAA there is less competition price. Deciding factors are consistency of quality, the volume of assets the outsourcer can handle, the reliability and communication. Not many studios can create batches of characters worthy for titles like The Witcher or Uncharted. But this is also an area where I assume individual freelancers can shine - for hero characters. Sometimes we just get the support cast and the hero characters are done in-house our go to an especially talented freelancer.

We, as a big outsourcer, also realized that competing on price alone isn't the best strategy. We're in China, but Taiwan, India and Vietnam are cheaper. Service, communication, technical competence and reliability are really important for us, and I think our clients include this in their decision - not just price alone. Although it can take a bit to convince your clients about this added value, and why they should pay more for this (and how it pays off for them in the long run!). I think the bigger studios are already aware of this.

Smaller studios may still just go for cheap - but you get what you pay for. So they shouldn't be surprised about "outsourcer horror stories" coming true.