How to trust programmers you meet on the Internet

keenon

I wanted to share a story.

A while back, I came across this thread: http://polycount.com/discussion/131330/blubber-busters-looking-for-programmers. A couple of super talented artists wanted to find a programmer to partner with. From a few email exchanges with them, I think they decided to go without a programmer, and just learn to program themselves, because they couldn't figure out a way to trust a programmer over the Internet to not steal their art or steal the revenues from the game. They're right to be cautious, there's really no enforcement of trust that works over the internet.

Until now...

I'm trying to gauge interest in building a platform to solve this problem. I think it would be great to have a website where you can specify digital contracts, and have them be "self enforcing." For example, if you want to split the profits of your game with a programmer, specify that in a contract, and point the Steam, App Store, etc, accounts at the endpoint for your contract on this website, and the website will automatically deposit the right amount in everybody's bank account whenever checks arrive. No need to trust your 15 year old Romanian programmer to get all the money into his checking account, and then send you the right amount. You could also specify voting control over changes to digital assets, and the website can generate legally binding contracts underneath all the digital stuff in case someone really tries to screw you over.

I put up a landing page: http://jointhepolis.com/

Leave your email address on the site if you're interested! If I get a critical mass of interested people, I'll build the site.

- Keenon

passerby

Or you could just hire a programmer that has a reputation and some contracts under his belt

iadagraca

I'm surprised there's not many platforms that offer a free "contract" commission set-up kind of thing. 

There's plenty of services to find artists and programmers, and plenty of services to help organize projects. But nothing that helps ease the trust between internet collaborators or maybe collaborators in general. Something that helps build reputation for good freelancers, and includes NDA's and other agreements and such for the project. 

AtticusMars

I was under the impression steam already did automatic profit splitting

MissMaddyTaylor

Hey, just here to make things clear on the situation for our game that you mentioned. We never decided to do all the programming ourselves, but we did have some trouble finding programmers that were a good fit and would work with us the way we needed. We have 2 very dedicated programmers on the project now and they're awesome people! We never had any concerns about getting revenue or art stolen since we have contracts in place, so I'm sorry if there was a miscommunication somewhere.

PyrZern

I am not programmer at all whatsoever. But, what's stopping a programmer from changing the 'Spend $6' button in the game to send $1 to himself and $5 to the official account to be split between the team members ??

Two Listen

PyrZern said:

I am not programmer at all whatsoever. But, what's stopping a programmer from changing the 'Spend $6' button in the game to send $1 to himself and $5 to the official account to be split between the team members ??

I sort of assume working on an indie project with some freelance programmers/engineers, that the codebase isn't exactly going to be a secret amongst team members - in the same way that the art files probably are not secret among team members (this might even be in the contract(s).  You could probably find something like this in the code even without detailed knowledge of the language it's written in (it's a lot easier to read code than to write it).  ...and if you're to the point that you're going to be making money off of your project, and paying your fellow partners/contracted employees/what have you, then you're probably going to have at least one eye on the numbers for revenue.  ...and regards to billing systems, a lot of times it's not "I wrote the code that bills things from scratch and it is secret", it's, "I implemented this third party billing solution that lets our game work with Steam/Google Play/iTunes/Amazon/Facebook/Whatever where there's a bunch of damn regulatory restrictions and revenue always first goes through the publishing account and there are probably detailed statistics for all sales of all types in that environment."

I'm also sure programmers have similar fears - "How do I find an artist who isn't going to steal my code and run off with my solutions for another game if I work with them on this project?"

Regarding the OP, I'm sure a service like that could be a comfort to some.  But even if you're telling the publishing account on iTunes/Google Play/whatever to point to your service for profit splitting because you feel like you can't trust normal methods of work for dealing with teammates, well...there's still the matter of who has access to the publishing account where that's set up...

passerby

You guys are making much more issue of this than you should, if you cant trust a team member, you will not work effectively with him and will lose any value of them being there.

Also like i already mentioned there is a very easy way to get a good programmer that wont rip you off, which is to find a experienced freelancer or someone with previous studio experience. They wont rip you off since they have something to lose if they do so, their reputation which is what gets them their work.

Also a large part of your problem is your trying to make a game using revenue sharing. This is not the way to go about it, using revenue sharing as a payment model wont attract professionals. Professionals like myself would never work for equity, i need to know i will receive payment for my work, and if I'm not i will just spend that time on my own projects and ideas. I believe if you want good work done, and you believe in your project you have to put your money where your mouth is and contract some professionals to work on it.

blankslatejoe

passerby said:

You guys are making much more issue of this than you should, if you cant trust a team member, you will not work effectively with him and will lose any value of them being there.

...
Also a large part of your problem is your trying to make a game using revenue sharing. This is not the way to go about it, using revenue sharing as a payment model wont attract professionals. Professionals like myself would never work for equity, i need to know i will receive payment for my work, and if I'm not i will just spend that time on my own projects and ideas. I believe if you want good work done, and you believe in your project you have to put your money where your mouth is and contract some professionals to work on it.

That line about trust is pretty crucial.
Also, Looks like this thread is a double post. I wrote a longer comment there. http://polycount.com/discussion/163564/how-to-trust-programmers-you-meet-on-the-internet#latest

Also, passerby; this is tangential to the conversation, but I think that the equity model can be as reasonable for professionals too. It really depends on the situation...like who you're working with. If you're of equal experience to the others on the team, and have equal risk, I think equity makes sense (like, if you're ALL seasoned pros working on a side-project together). But again it all comes down to trust....and usually the set rate is the more pro way to do things. Still, I've been hired by people AND hired people both ways.. and I've paid out tens of thousands of dollars both ways.