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AK-47 Type 3ish (Looking for critiques!)

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mauriciomarinho polycounter lvl 5
Hey everyone, I'm looking for critiques on my new model. This is an AK-47 mostly based on type 3. I'm finishing the textures, still going to add some weathering (wearing out? bad english...) to the wood parts and fix the mapping on the grip, I'll also model a low poly version. So I thought this would be a nice point to ask for some critiques.

Thank you.








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  • Gazu
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    Gazu polycounter lvl 7
    The Wood on the Grip points in the wrong direction. Also the wood looks a bit to clean compared to the scratchy metal.
  • mauriciomarinho
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    mauriciomarinho polycounter lvl 5
    @Gazu thank you, any more feedback or tips?
  • zetheros
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    zetheros polycounter lvl 4
    Hey man, great model.

    Here are some things I noticed; overall it feels too smooth, and the wear and tear is too even on most parts of the gun. The wear and tear (scratches on the ridges of the magazine) don't seem to blend well with the rest. The lighting on the wood feels a bit off; it seems a little more like plastic; wood is quite porous in some places, shiny in others, and is actually a fairly complicated material to simulate. The metal isn't shiny enough, particularly on the areas where the black finish has worn off. There's a small area behind the steel lever in the second pic that has an odd wood grain contrast; it's too detailed compared to the rest of the wood.

    Hope that helps!
  • mauriciomarinho
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    mauriciomarinho polycounter lvl 5
    @zetheros I'm trying to get the wear and tear to look right, I'll try more contrast and better placement. The wood really needs some work, this is still procedural, maybe baking it and painting over will improve it.

    Thank you, it will help a lot (:
  • mauriciomarinho
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    mauriciomarinho polycounter lvl 5
    Here's an update based on previous feedback, tweaked wood material look and added wear and tear, maybe a bit too much I guess. I'm just missing some aging on the barrel now, once done I'll call it finished. If anyone has any more feedback, it would be really welcome.

    Again, thanks for the feedback (:








  • JoshWilkinson
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    JoshWilkinson polycounter lvl 8
    The model looks decent but this texture needs a lot of work. If I'm not mistaken, AKs have a different material for the grip (and often the magazine) that is a similar color to the wood but isn't wood. It's like a plum-ish colored plastic or something? I can't remember but I know I've seen other artists discuss the material here on the forums.

    Like others have said, the wood could use some work. Particularly the grain on that grip being very distracting. Also to note about wood is that when when it is treated (stained, lacquered, etc) it accentuates the grain. When the finish is chipped and the bare wood is exposed, there is much less contrast/ grain and it is mostly a bare-pine color. Also that brass and lead could use some work. Right now it is just so yellow I was immediately drawn to it as reading incorrectly.

    Also where are you getting your references from? The wear doesn't look consistent with most guns. I believe the majority of AKs are blued so you should have chipping as well as that softer fade into he metal that seems very common. The wear on the wood is pretty large by comparison to everything else and I'm not sure I've seen a lot of examples of an AK that have wood chipping where the stock or grip meet the upper receiver.

    If you're using a procedural texturer, take these things into consideration and mask out areas where there shouldn't be as much wear. If you're doing this by hand, keep these things in mind.
  • mauriciomarinho
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    mauriciomarinho polycounter lvl 5
    Hey @BringMeASunkist thanks for the feedback.

    I'm not an gun expert, but this specific AK model (type 3 / type 56) seems to have a wood grip too, there's a variety of them, I believe you have the AKM in mind. This image for example, shows the same type with different grip materials:



    These images too:





    I'll try to improve the wood and bullets, the extra yellow tint might be due to lighting, but I'll check on that.

    The wear seems too be an issue, I'll work on that too. Btw, i'm using Blender (some small variety of procedural textures) and krita.

    Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it.
  • Stoy79
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    Stoy79 polycounter lvl 3

    It's actually very good - you've grasped the shapes and design quite well, I think. Only thing I'm wondering - if it's based on type 3, why not go all the way and make a proper type 3? Currently, it's a mixture of type 3 and AKM. For example, the stock, rear sight base and gas block are typically AKM but normally wouldn't fit on an AK type 3, at least not without some modifications. Unless it's a modern Bulgarian milled receiver or a civilian US made milled receiver or something.

     

    You've also misplaced the auto-sear pin (should be much lower) and the pin heads are larger on the left side of the receiver. That's how they look:

    http://ak-builder.com/images/detailed/0/axis_pin.jpg

     

    Mag catch pin is recessed but it shouldn't:

    http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=14blue0&s=4

     

    You can easily just add it to the normal map.

     

    Edges on the rear sight block are waaaay too hard...

     

    For reference, here's how a type 3 rear sight block looks like:

    http://photos.imageevent.com/willyp/russiansovietcomblocsection/russiasovietunion/handguns/1947kalashnikovtype3ak47762x39/R%20top%20rr%20sight.jpg

    http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRcj1CC2DB-1qjqYaAPjMt_6n2OwOqnelXX9kwfaEuwS9_Viko5Dw

     

    Type 3 Gas block :

    http://www.zib-militaria.de/epages/61431412.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/61431412/Products/100567

     

    ...and sling loop (goes on the gas block) :

    http://www.zib-militaria.de/epages/61431412.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/61431412/Products/100573

     

    And type 3 furniture (Polish - and it has the sling loop on the stock, normally it's on the left side of the receiver):

    http://www.zib-militaria.de/epages/61431412.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/61431412/Products/120026

     

    You can see stock is attached both on top, and below:

    http://www.fototime.com/201F4C13C9FB4FA/orig.jpg

     

    Gas tube has 4 holes on both sides (see bottom picture) :

    http://browningmgs.com/T2T3/Photos/StrapHooks.jpg

     

    Muzzle brake should be somewhat larger and rotated at an angle (it's a much later modification, but can be installed on a type 3) :

    http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR0mBTp8AiTT2AsBZ47YSDsmouIePnI67kmMNk5d3umbObArYuQ

    http://ultimak.com/gallery/lori-2391-AK.jpg

     

    Lower handguard retainer looks weird - it's as if it's got two, glued one on top of the other... btw, something a lot of modellers don't seem to realize (because it's not always obvious) is that the handguards are wider at the back and get a bit narrower at the front.

     

    Wood on the type 3 was already mostly laminated, at least on Soviet and Polish AKs - only stocks were sometimes plain wood (but most examples are laminated).

     

    BTW, your first image shows two different types of AKs - top is early AMKS with type 3 handguard and AKS underfolder, second is a type 2 AK (but lower handguard looks like it's Bulgarian bakelite or other). The other images are type 2 and type 1, respectively.

     

    About textures - well, what's been said previously. Wear on the mag ridges doesn't look good - I'd make it like the wear on the receiver cover. For wood, I'd go for laminated or at least reduce the grain contrast (and increase the size of the grain). Personally, I'd use an actual wood texture in either cases. When you use simulated wood textures, in most cases it ends up looking fake.

    Also, I think metal needs more wear, overall - especially if it's a 50+ years old AK. :) Some mild traces of rust won't look out of place, I think. Also, some dust/dirt and oil traces will make it more intreresting.


    Anyway, keep at it - it's already good but with some more work it could become a masterpiece. :smiley: 

  • mauriciomarinho
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    mauriciomarinho polycounter lvl 5
    @Stoy79 Wow, thank you so much, that's a lot of good info.

    I'll go trough my model and make all the adjustments, some of these changes will take some time, since there will be some modelling involved, that means uv unwrapping again, but that's ok. Rust, dust, dirt and oil traces are a really good idea.

    As for the choice of not doing a "true" type 3, that's just my own ignorance, it's surprisingly hard to find good references for this specific type and I also don't really know the name of all the parts, making it really hard to find them. A exploded view of it really helped, but sometimes I end up using some other type for something, like the stock, which was a mistake, it really looks like an AKM stock. The gas tube holes was a choice, since it's gonna be a FPS asset, thought I could save some polys by not including it... but thinking about it now, maybe it doesn't make much sense not to include in this high poly version. The handguard was also a lack of references, I'll fix it.

    Thanks a lot for your time, I really appreciate it :)
  • Stoy79
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    Stoy79 polycounter lvl 3

    Yeah, reference for these is indeed quite scarce. I've had trouble finding good reference for it too, when I was modelling the Type 3. Other versions are even worse, in a way - won't panic you with how many variations the AKM and AK74 have (depending on country, year of production - even Soviet ones from same year vary, depending of factory). :)

     

    You don't need to use any polygons for these holes in the gas tube, it can just be added in the normal map and made black in the other maps. It's too far in first person to notice, anyway.

    Same with trigger, hammer and auto-sear pin ends on the right side - it can be done in the normal map and it'll look just as nice. The pin heads on the left side however do need polygons, I think.

     

    The stock shouldn't need that much modification - it's just a bit larger and blockier where it attaches to the receiver:

    http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTJ9RbciQ-JeVZeTorigWzgJAYACs5uAh7Wvebju2YlTk8_lMBj1Q

    http://i45.tinypic.com/3bvp0.jpg

    http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll11/jjaree1/9100824_zpsxvt0xr7c.jpg

     

    Notice, btw how the rear of the receiver is cut at an angle.

     

    Also, here's a good general reference for the type 3 and other models:

    http://browningmgs.com/T2T3/Kalashnikov.htm

     

    About the cartridges, these usually have steel casings, so it could be gray steel. Often casings are also lacquered, so they have more of an olive green color.

    http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/5.45x397.62x395.56x45.jpg

    http://www.slickguns.com/sites/default/files/KSAP762F.jpg

  • mauriciomarinho
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    mauriciomarinho polycounter lvl 5
    @Stoy79 Your models look great. Where can I find your Fallout 3 mods? Will you be making any for Fallout 4?

    Just so I don't forget, first, which do you think is the best way to make the inside of the handguard for a low poly version? I've seen quite a lot of styles, some just make a block or a continuous shape inside (Payday 2)... CSGO has the best style I guess, it has some geometry but it's really dark.

    Here are some early fixes, from what I understood, rear sight is now okay, looks much better and accurate with a small slope on the back:



    Mag ping also included now:



    I'll make the other changes too and post them once everything is done. As for the stock, personally I find this AKM style much more interesting, but I'll change for accuracy.  Thanks a lot for the help!
  • Stoy79
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    Stoy79 polycounter lvl 3

    Mod is still on Nexus, as well as my on my blog : http://heffysmods.blogspot.com/

    I didn't really plan on porting it to FO4, however after having a look at the game this week an FO4 version isn't out of the question anymore... :) Can't say for sure until the needed tools and SDK are released, but I'm taking the dust off some of the updated models in anticipation.

     

    Rear sight looks good, just some minor adjustments.

     


     

    1. Slope should be more rounded.

    2. Should be slightly raised.

    3. There's no need for that depression. It's flat until where the spring sits, but you can't see any of it once the sight leaf is in place. See last image.

     

    Also, I think you really need to soften all those edges. Some are OK, but most are still very sharp and it won't look good in any engine.

    http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp80/trn_photobucket/2014-04-12185046_zps403df96d.jpg

    http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp80/trn_photobucket/2014-04-12185124_zps412b7c5f.jpg

    http://mg34.com/machinegun/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/IMG_0357.jpg

    http://static1.squarespace.com/static/50037c45c4aaab8fd03f8ee9/56163fb6e4b05bb9c3f0cb9b/56163fc0e4b0f890085f915b/1444298691656/IMG_45792.jpg

     

    The mag catch pin is good, although there's no hole in the middle. Sometimes it looks like there is, but it's just marks from the punch that's been used.

    http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/jpodriznik/Variations/DSCF9553.jpg

    http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x21/clutterbugg/AK-103%20clone/IMG_7732.jpg

  • mauriciomarinho
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    mauriciomarinho polycounter lvl 5
    Here are all the fixes related to modelling, not included but also done are the pin heads on the left side of the receiver and muzzle brake fix. Didn't change the handguard yet, will do it soon.

    Rear sight fix, with smoother edges too:



    Stock attachment points:





    Auto-sear pin position fix:



    Sling loop fix:



    It kind of breaks the topology a little bit, but since it's quite small and far away, not an issue. Clearing rod and handguard are weird, needs fixing too.

    That's all for now, I'll be looking trough all the other critiques and making changes to it. If you spot any more issues and could point it out, I would appreaciate it.

    Thanks again!
  • Stoy79
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    Stoy79 polycounter lvl 3



    I meant this shouldn't be there. It's cut straight, right to the end. You didn't need to make the hole where the spring sits, no one will ever see it, under the sight leaf - it would be wasted polygons. Otherwise, it's a great improvement.

     


     

    Points 1 and 2 are part of the same problem - it's a milled receiver, so it doesn't have a rear trunnion per-say. The trunnion, here, is an integral part of the receiver - only bottom tang is a separate part and fixed with the rivets that hold the pistol grip attachment. Point 2 just points out there is no cut. Have a look the refs I included, it'll be clearer, I think.

     http://www.westford86.com/AK/type3/_MG_2653.jpg

    https://lmgfirearms.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/dsc_0034.jpg

    https://lmgfirearms.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/dsc_0030.jpg

    Bottom tang (just to show what I meant by "separate part" - otherwise yours is correct):

    http://cdn3.volusion.com/gvojc.dwvhb/v/vspfiles/photos/23481-3.jpg?1350561273

     

    Other small issues:

    - Selector positions seem too small, they need to be twice as big, I think.

    - Mag catch is intersecting with Mag a bit. Just don't forget to fix for the final result.

    - Lower handguard retainer has some edges that are too hard in places.

    - Gas block's front is a bit flat - it looks more like a type 1 or 2 gas block. Although, in first person, you may never notice the difference. In ref below, left one is type 2, right one type 3.

    http://browningmgs.com/T2T3/Photos/T2T3_GasBlocks.jpg

     

    Forgot to mention earlier that type 3 bolt carrier has no lightening cut whatsoever. Also, on type 3 receiver covers are smooth, but as, technically, any cover model is compatible, it can be left as is, along with the slanted muzzle brake.

     

    Overall, very good job - I think you're almost ready to go to the next stage. :)

  • mauriciomarinho
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    mauriciomarinho polycounter lvl 5
    Inside rear sight fixed now, I was hesitant to change because there are some really complex and messy topology there, kind of broke it, but worked it out, now it's ok I think. There's some inaccuracy still, but since it's gonna be hidden, not a problem. Also left some geometry there so when I bake the normal maps, it doesn't get some weird artifact.



    I'll fix the receiver, top part is odd, again thought I would break the geometry, but it's possible to change.

    Selector sizes I may fix it with a normal map, topology there it's too tight to change without major changes. Mag catch and lower handguard retainer fix done. 

    As for the bolt carrier, I like this better than a plain one, probably will keep it.

    Thanks again.
  • mauriciomarinho
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    mauriciomarinho polycounter lvl 5
    Luckily, receiver geometry met almost perfectly with stock. Here are the results:





    Should I make a crease on the bottom tang, to indicate a separate part?
  • Stoy79
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    Stoy79 polycounter lvl 3

    You could make the rear sight base a solid block. It's a bit too detailed, right now, in my opinion. There's no need for the piston "tunnel" either, really - it will be only seeable a fraction of a second while it's shooting or reloading and not actually seen at all in first person. It's just a matter of saving polys and simplifying the topology, but it can be used as is too. Won't create any major trouble, I think.

    About selector positions, you could use floating geometry in the high poly - it's very easy to resize and reposition. You could also do the same with the pins on right side and mag catch pin - it's how I'd do it. Unless you've already done it that way, can't tell from screenshots.

    About bolt carrier - you can use the AKM type, indeed. It's compatible - in fact, early AKM used bolt carriers initially made for type 3 - so, no problem. However, the bolt carrier then looks a bit different and it's not chromed. Lightening cut is much longer and deeper than how you've made it. You could also make the charging handle slightly bigger (otherwise it's good).

    http://www.k-var.com/shop/images//d_754.jpg

    http://41.media.tumblr.com/58d73dd4ebcce8ae9febdab0716ccf97/tumblr_mqnvhv1H631qdrno0o1_500.jpg



  • mauriciomarinho
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    mauriciomarinho polycounter lvl 5
    About the selector, that's a good idea, I'll use that, something I don't use quite often.

    The bolt carrier I'll change then, I don't think this chrome material i'm doing is working, it looks off. A black painted will be easier... Although I really like the contrast between the black receiver and a chrome bolt carrier. Don't know, I might end up doing both and see what works.

    Yeah, rear sight geometry will be reduced once I got my low poly in place, this is just a base for baking.

    Thanks a lot for your input, It has been really valuable, is there anyway I can help you? A facebook page like or something? Won't cost me anything, lol.
  • mauriciomarinho
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    mauriciomarinho polycounter lvl 5
    Hey everyone, long time since the last update, but here it is. I've made all changes as suggested. Here are some images of how the AK is now and all animations i've done so far, let me know what you think, if it's missing some animation and such. Thank you.


    Direct link to video if you want to download it https://www.dropbox.com/s/pdbkox2klrc5mmc/ak47_anm_wip2.avi?dl=0 














  • Rawbert
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    Rawbert polycounter lvl 5
    not bad with the animations
    but personally, i think you could push the animation more, especially the "switching to ak" part and the "reload" part.
    It's just abit too slow and it lacks the roughness in it (not sure how to subscribe it)
  • TRAK
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    TRAK polycounter lvl 4
    Only thing I can think of from an animation standpoint is whether or not you would be holding the AK upright when crawling, if you try to act out these animations yourself with a piece of cardboard you can generally solve some of these little problems :) Love the progress though, it has come a long way, keep it up!
  • mauriciomarinho
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    mauriciomarinho polycounter lvl 5
    Rawbert said:
    not bad with the animations
    but personally, i think you could push the animation more, especially the "switching to ak" part and the "reload" part.
    It's just abit too slow and it lacks the roughness in it (not sure how to subscribe it)
    It's probably due to the arc on the "draw" animation. Reload it's also a little bit too "smooth", you're right, I'll change it. As for the timing, I'll keep it as is, didn't want to make it too fast, just a personal preference for more "believable" animations (like in "Insurgency" or Squad.) and it's also easier to speed up an animation than it is to slow it down, I think. Since this is going to the unity asset store, guess I should keep it as "generic" and easier to change as possible.

    TRAK said:
    Only thing I can think of from an animation standpoint is whether or not you would be holding the AK upright when crawling, if you try to act out these animations yourself with a piece of cardboard you can generally solve some of these little problems :) Love the progress though, it has come a long way, keep it up!

     Yeah, you're totally right, that's not the way you hold a rifle while crawling, but in order to make a "shooting" transition not clip trough the floor or look weird, this kind of solves it... I don't know, maybe I'll test that. Thank you.
  • mauriciomarinho
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    mauriciomarinho polycounter lvl 5
    So, it's finished. It took some time, more than expected, but here it is. The wood material uses a shader from Silvio Valinhos' substance package, check his work here https://www.artstation.com/artwork/gwlkL



    It's up on the Asset Store http://u3d.as/mYp (renamed for trademark, even though there a lot of others "AK-47")

    Screenshots of unity viewport:





























    Thanks everyone for your critiques! You made it a lot better than it would have been, thank you so much :smiley: 
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