I want the experience of college but not the debt

YellowYeti

I know college is brought up a lot on polycount, and i know I've seen countless threads about how j don't need it, but when I see my friends go off to college after their breaks and all it kind of makes me want to go, but any decent school for some kind of game art is ludicrously expensive which then makes me just go back to teaching myself. So just wondering what your guys' thoughts are
Also for the record I've got no problems teaching myself, like I dont just sit and do nothing I just wonder if the ol college experience is worth it.thanks!

pigart

It would be nice to know if you are from America or Europe because college/uni prices seem to have a big difference in price between these regions.

Ged

depends what you mean by worth it, in terms of monetary value - I highly doubt you will feel you are getting your monies worth. In terms of long term life opportunities it might be worth it, for example you might make a few friends that end up recommending you to their boss for a really good job or you might meet a lovely partner for life or you might learn to be independent and manage your life better. Those sort of things have great value too but are not guaranteed and could be learned or found elsewhere.

YellowYeti

@pigart I'm from the,states, and @ged year I was kind of thinking that, that I'd makes friends that I couldn't anywhere else and whatnot. Thanks for theplies BTW!

blankslatejoe

One of the smartest things I did was going to a public state school rather than a private art school... the price difference was huge...like a fifth of the price per semester, and, like you, I was very self-motivated and kept myself working on contests and participating on forums outside of the classroom. Consider going to someplace cheaper with a somewhat decent traditional art program and train yourself in game stuff on the side. Sure, a lot has changed since I went to school 15 years ago, but it seems that one thing is still true: the game industry is still changing too fast for most 4 year colleges to keep up with. Even at the most expensive degree-oriented school you'll still be training yourself on the side in the newest methodologies.  Goodluck.

Darth Tomi

I usually tell people go to a regular established 4 year college, and try to learn some skill on the side. You want to learn art? Fine, take a few art classes, go online and learn some art there, practice practice practice, and by the time you graduate you should have a portfolio showing off your work. You will also get a "broad general education" background that may help you down the road. 
College is also more than just "sitting in lectures, doing the reading, and taking a blue book exam". It is the whole "social experience" thing- meeting new people, making new friends, maybe spending a semester abroad and seeing the world, football games, that sort of thing. 

skyline5gtr

DO NOT GO TO A PRIVATE SCHOOL, you will regret and pay for it the rest of your life. Hell teh government just settled with EDMC owners of Art Institute for fraud

YellowYeti

Darth Tomi said:

I usually tell people go to a regular established 4 year college, and try to learn some skill on the side. You want to learn art? Fine, take a few art classes, go online and learn some art there, practice practice practice, and by the time you graduate you should have a portfolio showing off your work. You will also get a "broad general education" background that may help you down the road. 
College is also more than just "sitting in lectures, doing the reading, and taking a blue book exam". It is the whole "social experience" thing- meeting new people, making new friends, maybe spending a semester abroad and seeing the world, football games, that sort of thing. 

Yea i was thinking of doing this, because like you said i want that whole "social experience" part of it, it gets pretty lonely just teaching yourself everything haha, but it's still extremely fun and i love it, which is what keeps me doing it. Thanks everyone for the feedback as well.

ambershee

Seriously consider leaving the US, there are excellent universities in Europe that teach game art, which may well prove cheaper, and the experience of living abroad would be utterly invaluable.

xvampire

since it hasnt been mentioned yet

More Americans Study in Germany to Avoid College Debt
http://www.voanews.com/content/americans-study-in-germany-to-avoid-college-debt/3044768.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-34132664
I dont know about art major in germany though but it seems interesting
someone from Germany proabably can give more proper point of view of course.

one of my sister friend is American , who studied in SIngapore.   he said also quite cheaper in comparison to his hometown tuition fee

skyline5gtr

WIsh I had thought of that 

CandyStripes05

college for me was worth it for the life experiences and friendships made, pretty much everything minus the educational part. I feel I only learned the very bare basics of a few of the programs I use. I made good friends and lots of them are in various studios and active here on polycount, I don't keep in contact with my school or professors

but from those friends I found polycount and it wasn't till after graduation I really started to develop my skills through self teaching from numerous online sources

In the end I would do it again, but I would enjoy the social atmosphere of it all even more so (the debt part sucks but I was smart with my money and it didn't linger over me for long)

YellowYeti

Wow thanks for the feedback guys! Since it'd take a while to reply to each person individually, i'll do a mass question, since a few mentioned schools in europe, what schools they would recommend there? Since i am not familiar with those schools, also is it like the same process of going to school abroad as it is in the US? Or do i need to do something else. And i think it kind of seems like everyone is talking about a regular state college to make it cheaper if i do stay in the US. 
Edit: if I do go to a state college do you think its alright to just take up a degree that doesn't really have much to do with game art if its cheap but I heard before computer programming might be helpful so I might take that up

Shrike

Here in berlin are several good schools, I paid around 8k-12k per year for the Games Academy which was good (probably high end compared to average US) with some world class teachers, the md.h is even more expensive but seems very sophisticated and there are some other things too here. Ive seen a small one on the web that was fully focussed on modeling, the usual ones will teach you about more or less everything required and you also work on group projects which is great. Generally id say germany is your best bet, (maybe Switzerland and Austria could be something), I personally don't trust schools in france.

Never forget that majority of the impact has to come from yourself. Nobody is leaving any school good just from their teaching.

HausFly

Taking a semester or two at a local community college is also another option.  You can continue your formal education at a reasonable price, and then practice 3d art on the side.  Classes can often costs 1/10 of what they would be at a private or state university, and credits for common classes are transferable if you go on to pursue a bachelor's degree at another university.  I'm not sure how it is across all states, but Texas has a program where you can transfer around 60 credit hours from a community college towards a bachelor's degree at any Texas university (http://www.tccns.org/).

blankslatejoe

Shrike said:

Here in berlin are several good schools, I paid around 8k per year for the Games Academy which was good (probably high end compared to average US) with some world class teachers,.

That sounds like a deal to me. I'm assuming that's 8k Euro, which is what, like 10k USD? That's about the price of a cheaper in-state school PER SEMESTER (with 2 semesters a year, so, like 20k+ a year). A private, high end, out of state, artschool would be more like 50k a year, if not more...and that doesn't generally include meals or boarding. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see how some students can end up a quarter million dollars in debt and have to spend the next 30 years paying it off here in the US.   :-(

skyline5gtr

There are very few schools that will actually prepare or teach you the skills needed as well. Most of them are an utter waste of time your better of spending less money on tutorials from 3dmotive or gnomon BUT you will not get the college experience 

YellowYeti

@skylinegtr i know that much, and it's all about how your portfolio is, not the degree. But if i do attend a school, i plan on still using those sites, just like i had said, i want that experience from college haha, which is why i was thinking of just dorming at a cheap college and getting a cheap degree there.

Shrike

blankslatejoe said:

Shrike said:

Here in berlin are several good schools, I paid around 8k per year for the Games Academy which was good (probably high end compared to average US) with some world class teachers,.

That sounds like a deal to me. I'm assuming that's 8k Euro, which is what, like 10k USD? That's about the price of a cheaper in-state school PER SEMESTER (with 2 semesters a year, so, like 20k+ a year). A private, high end, out of state, artschool would be more like 50k a year, if not more...and that doesn't generally include meals or boarding. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see how some students can end up a quarter million dollars in debt and have to spend the next 30 years paying it off here in the US.   :-(

Oh im sorry, I didn't remember right, I paid 795 per month equaling to 9540 per year + 300 for fees so a bit more, not cheap imo but manageable. There is also a free one here but good luck getting into that. And im not sure about the quality. If you want to live in no mans land then in the east are 100% free schools but maybe just 1 or so that relates. Games Academy, Games Academy Hochschule or MD.H
is what ist the safest to recommend from my knowledge but im not sure about the language barrier. GA was mostly german, MD.H may be more on the english side not sure, just phone them. Expect +-30% higher cost for MD.H

blankslatejoe

Shrike said:

Oh im sorry, I didn't remember right, I paid 795 per month equaling to 9540 per year + 300 for fees so a bit more, not cheap imo but manageable.

Oh! I didn't mean to imply that the fee was cheap. It IS a lot of money..you'd just have a hard time finding many US schools with good art programs for a price anywhere near that (there might be some--like the one I went to might still be affordable). But yeah, the schools with manageable prices aren't the reason colleges in the US are getting the reputation for being predatory.

ExcessiveZero

don't covet thy neighbors debt.

The fundamental advantage of college in this industry is it enables you, if you are social to build your contacts, but there are other ways, game dev groups in your local city, most citys have them, they tend to meet up once a month at a bar or pub here and socialize/talk shop, and then there is short community college courses, they tend to vary wildly in level of quality, but never be above going over the fundamentals once more nor discount the advantage of asking a teacher a very direct specific question that and you get to engage with your peers.

But to your direct question, I must wonder towards your own motivations when you mention breaks, I get breaks from doing art, I take a few here and there myself, but fundamentally I love to do the work, couldn't imagine taking a 3 month break out of the year, your skills in this profession unfortunately do rust, and with new techniques workflows and software ever changing, you can't afford to rust when you forever have to be perpetually pushing forward.

fmnoor

Well what do you plan on learning in college and what do you want to do?  There are lots of cheaper options (fine arts / traditional vs 3D oriented schools), scholarships for some and you can always study part time while working. You could take classes or workshops online, or just go through tutorials. You can also take  your general electives at a community college and just do the art stuff in the higher priced school later on if you want to. Your options are as open as to how self-disciplined you are.

I went to one of the schools SkylineGTR seems to vehemently dislike (and bring up time and time again), but the friends I made and the skills I learnt there helped me for many years after.  Would I have had the motivation and drive at that age (18/19) to push myself to learn art otherwise? I'm not sure - probably not. And the work ethic I picked up helped me teach myself skills down the road and continue learning well after graduating. I've also made friends who are now at other studios and we help each other out.

I will say this. As somebody who transferred as a computer science major to an arts program - I had to work much harder and be more self-critical of myself studying art. You need to get real and know when your work isn't good enough and that simply "doing the coursework" isn't going to fly.

JacqueChoi

I still have absolutely NO idea why Americans aren't flooding into Canada to get in on the cheaper education.

I am in no way affiliated or an alumni.. but:
Sheridan is a degree granting school that's highly recognized across the world with Acadamy Award winning alumni, and is NOT PRIVATE.
Same could be said for Seneca, and a myriad of other schools in Toronto/Vancouver/Montreal.

Due to NAFTA, the Tuition for an American Student at Sheridan would be $25k (for us canadians, it's half that).



I keep bringing this up, yet I do see many Americans continue to look at their $250,000 national options like they are better.

skyline5gtr

JacqueChoi said:

I still have absolutely NO idea why Americans aren't flooding into Canada to get in on the cheaper education.

I am in no way affiliated or an alumni.. but:
Sheridan is a degree granting school that's highly recognized across the world with Acadamy Award winning alumni, and is NOT PRIVATE.
Same could be said for Seneca, and a myriad of other schools in Toronto/Vancouver/Montreal.

Due to NAFTA, the Tuition for an American Student at Sheridan would be $25k (for us canadians, it's half that).



I keep bringing this up, yet I do see many Americans continue to look at their $250,000 national options like they are better.

Cause were dumb and do not realize how bad it truly is here until we get old or wise enough and by that time already in debt for the rest of our life. Wish I could talk to younger me for sure.

American republican politicians do nothing but talk smack about Canada and how bad its education and healthcare if because SOCIALISM is SCARY BOOOO!!!!!!!

YellowYeti

@jacquechoi  when you say 25k do you mean for one year or all 4 years? And does it give a degree or like a certificate 

Justin Meisse

Where'd you get that $250k number?  The internet says an MBA from Harvard will set you back $158,800

AFAIK most of the financial aid and scholarships you can get won't follow you out of the country.  My route was getting an Associates degree from community college for free because of state scholarships and transferring credits to a 4 year school.

beefaroni

Hmm I'm surprised no one has mentioned Gnomon or Futurepoly yet. 

Those two would be a lot more inexpensive than a traditional four year college (private, not public) and you won't have to deal with the bullshit courses (science, math, etc) that you may have to take at a larger college/university. It also seems that the teachers at those schools are more up-to-date with the industry. 

I think a school like that would be a great way to meet like minded people who really just want to study art above all else. I believe surrounding yourself with people eager to learn and better themselves has a huge positive effect on personal growth, both artistically and mentally. While I'm sure not every student will be super motivated to push themselves outside of the classroom, I feel that there will still be a substantial amount who do.

Of course, you will miss out on the typical social experience of a four year college; however, I believe working incredibly hard on art at a focused school and leaving with a great portfolio may lead to more interesting experiences down the line.

blankslatejoe

Justin Meisse said:

Where'd you get that $250k number?  The internet says an MBA from Harvard will set you back $158,800

AFAIK most of the financial aid and scholarships you can get won't follow you out of the country.  My route was getting an Associates degree from community college for free because of state scholarships and transferring credits to a 4 year school.

Maybe that was JUST for the master's degree--the 2 years post Bachelors..or maybe just tuition isolated from other expected costs? This here says it's more like 65k (65k*4=260k): https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/how-aid-works/cost-attendance   Priiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiicey stuff.
Also, my art lead back at a previous gig did the Gnomon route for 6 months (after a doctorate in chemistry and ten years in that field, believe it or not), and I believe that was the only formal art training she had. She's now a lead at blizzard, last I checked. So, yeah, that road seemed to work very very well for her and I think that's a great option...as is doing the community college road that Justin mentioned.

YellowYeti

blankslatejoe said:

Also, my art lead back at a previous gig did the Gnomon route for 6 months (after a doctorate in chemistry and ten years in that field, believe it or not), and I believe that was the only formal art training she had. She's now a lead at blizzard, last I checked. So, yeah, that road seemed to work very very well for her and I think that's a great option...as is doing the community college road that Justin mentioned.

Oh wow really? So she went to a regular state college then did gnomon? That's awesome, and something i might look into doing then.

blankslatejoe

YellowYeti said:

blankslatejoe said:

Also, my art lead back at a previous gig did the Gnomon route for 6 months (after a doctorate in chemistry and ten years in that field, believe it or not), and I believe that was the only formal art training she had. She's now a lead at blizzard, last I checked. So, yeah, that road seemed to work very very well for her and I think that's a great option...as is doing the community college road that Justin mentioned.

Oh wow really? So she went to a regular state college then did gnomon? That's awesome, and something i might look into doing then.

Yeah, game art was a second career for her, after she got tired of chemistry. I'm not sure if the wages were as competitive to what someone with an actual PhD in a private sector science gig would make, but if you're not enjoying what you're doing...good wages only matter so much I guess? I never actually asked her about that.
But again, it's like what others are saying in this thread: this industry boils down to a few things: good portfolio, good reputation, ability to learn quick, etc. Where you go to school isn't really on that list beyond getting your foot in the door.

skyline5gtr

My BA in Game Art and Design was about 50k , 60k after capitalized interest 

YellowYeti

skyline5gtr said:

My BA in Game Art and Design was about 50k , 60k after capitalized interest 

Really? Where did you graduate from?

JacqueChoi

YellowYeti said:

@jacquechoi  when you say 25k do you mean for one year or all 4 years? And does it give a degree or like a certificate 

All 4 years.

Degree program. Not a useless certificate.

JacqueChoi

Justin Meisse said:

Where'd you get that $250k number?  The internet says an MBA from Harvard will set you back $158,800

Bleah. realised I made a mistake. $250k is the international rate us Canadians would be paying.

You guys pay half.

xChris

I went to a 4 year university, and stayed there an extra year cause I was getting a good amount of financial aid to double major, and get the most out of the courses that weren't under my curriculum. I think there's no university/college besides gnomon or digipen that has enough people coming out and going straight into the industry from what i've read, and honestly the debt I came out (25k), from my university, would probably be better put to use out of those two schools. I feel like a lot of the game art/dev courses that schools put up are way out of date, and don't have industry people teaching them, and I mean recent/still in the industry people. That's what's most valuable. I know of a professor who still teaches mudbox (which has its own pluses), but its getting outdated, from my school. 

IMO gnomon = artists,  digipen = programmers. If you really want to go to school, I highly recommend those. As an artist, I'm always looking out for gnomon's streams, I learn a lot, in particular the zbrush summit they had there and the various naughty dog talks, they're awesome and insightful.

Edit: I think surrounding yourself with like minded people would be really helpful. The friends I made from my game dev courses led me to my first industry job and contracts.

YellowYeti

xChris said:

I went to a 4 year university, and stayed there an extra year cause I was getting a good amount of financial aid to double major, and get the most out of the courses that weren't under my curriculum. I think there's no university/college besides gnomon or digipen that has enough people coming out and going straight into the industry from what i've read, and honestly the debt I came out (25k), from my university, would probably be better put to use out of those two schools. I feel like a lot of the game art/dev courses that schools put up are way out of date, and don't have industry people teaching them, and I mean recent/still in the industry people. That's what's most valuable. I know of a professor who still teaches mudbox (which has its own pluses), but its getting outdated, from my school. 

IMO gnomon = artists,  digipen = programmers. If you really want to go to school, I highly recommend those. As an artist, I'm always looking out for gnomon's streams, I learn a lot, in particular the zbrush summit they had there and the various naughty dog talks, they're awesome and insightful.

Edit: I think surrounding yourself with like minded people would be really helpful. The friends I made from my game dev courses led me to my first industry job and contracts.

I might do something similar then, Although i'm a bit hesitant to get back to college at 20, i think it would still be worth it, it's only 2 years. Where i would go to a regular college and try to get as much financial aid to help me get a degree in something unrelated, then go and try to pay for myself to go to gnomon, because if i took gnomon i'd have to move to california which is not a cheap thing to do, since currently the only way you can get into gnomon is if you go on campus or a resident of california, or their workshops.

Justin Meisse

JacqueChoi said:

Justin Meisse said:

Where'd you get that $250k number?  The internet says an MBA from Harvard will set you back $158,800

Bleah. realised I made a mistake. $250k is the international rate us Canadians would be paying.

You guys pay half.

What school?  I quoted a masters degree at the rich kid school.

JacqueChoi

Justin Meisse said:

What school?  I quoted a masters degree at the rich kid school.

Here's the school I teach at:
http://www.champlain.edu/current-students/financial-aid-and-student-accounts/student-accounts-and-payment-options/undergraduate-tuition-and-fees
$37,436 per year (4 year degree program).

CalArts is $43,400 per year.
RISD is $45,840 per year
Parsons is $49,200

Are my estimates really that far off?

Shrike

atleast its power of two : P
"Even" 37k for a year sounds insane to me. Move to europe, learn a language, and live like a king from the rest money.

Justin Meisse

Don't go to private schools and get the first half of your degree out of the way at community college: http://www.austincc.edu/tuition-and-financial-aid/compare-costs

bounchfx

There is a lot of great advice here. Personally I wound up going to an Art Institute and over 3 years totaled around 60k I think (this was in 2005). I do not think it was worth it at all. Ask yourself what you're really looking for, do some research (already a lot of great info in this thread), and dive in. There's just no reason you have to go into substantial debt and if you're able to do a 3-4 year thing for under 30k I'd say you're golden. Just remember that no matter where you go, the responsibility is on YOU above all to bust some serious ass and level up your skills through hard work and determination. Good luck!!

kanga

http://www.poopinmymouth.com/tutorial/formal_art_training.html
I do some part time teaching and the advice here rings pretty true.
Hope it helps.

Cheerio

xChris

YellowYeti said:

xChris said:

I went to a 4 year university, and stayed there an extra year cause I was getting a good amount of financial aid to double major, and get the most out of the courses that weren't under my curriculum. I think there's no university/college besides gnomon or digipen that has enough people coming out and going straight into the industry from what i've read, and honestly the debt I came out (25k), from my university, would probably be better put to use out of those two schools. I feel like a lot of the game art/dev courses that schools put up are way out of date, and don't have industry people teaching them, and I mean recent/still in the industry people. That's what's most valuable. I know of a professor who still teaches mudbox (which has its own pluses), but its getting outdated, from my school. 

IMO gnomon = artists,  digipen = programmers. If you really want to go to school, I highly recommend those. As an artist, I'm always looking out for gnomon's streams, I learn a lot, in particular the zbrush summit they had there and the various naughty dog talks, they're awesome and insightful.

Edit: I think surrounding yourself with like minded people would be really helpful. The friends I made from my game dev courses led me to my first industry job and contracts.

I might do something similar then, Although i'm a bit hesitant to get back to college at 20, i think it would still be worth it, it's only 2 years. Where i would go to a regular college and try to get as much financial aid to help me get a degree in something unrelated, then go and try to pay for myself to go to gnomon, because if i took gnomon i'd have to move to california which is not a cheap thing to do, since currently the only way you can get into gnomon is if you go on campus or a resident of california, or their workshops.

This is very true. But honestly you should really consider investing in yourself, which would hopefully pay for itself later if you work hard. Mostly everyone here starts with nothing, you just have to build yourself up! That's something I've learned post college, anything I can get my hands on and learn I'll buy it, whether its a 50 dollar gnomon video or a 5 dollar gumroad. I wish I had made the move to california when I was starting out college, but didn't know about it, or these forums. I think you're in a good place with a lot of people who have diverse opinions, and you should use it to your best judgement. Also, don't worry about your age and going to school, that's the most insignificant thing about you, school, and art, its about your work and the effort you put in!