Here's my take on this; if you're working in a field where alot of people which are not professional can ''imitate'' or simulate ''professionnal'' work, then you need to push harder so youre stuff clearly proves you're more specialized and worthy than the others...
See, as an artist having knowledge in the field, I can differentiate the work of an actual professionnal photographer and the work of an hobbyist. Same goes for graphic design. Alot of people can't sadly and it decreases the value of your work.
Nowaday, too many people can tweak some automatic buttons on a fancy cam, too many amateurs can play with Photoshop and calls themselves ''artists''...Those who have studied in said fields have more competitions if they don't show what ''professional'' work is.
Same goes for 3D modeling or CG work. Show that you can do better than the other kids out here, show that you're not a hobbyist, show that you have more knowledge and if the client see it in your work, he won't even bother coming to ask you working for free.
I know the reality is far form this but that's how things should be...Everything changes according to the field. I would be really stressed for exmaple, if I studied Liberal Art. Go take a tour on DeviantArt or ArtStations, so many people out there can pull magnificent artworks without having studied painting, color theory and lighting. And they grow by the minute, always adding new competitions every day to the market...when in fact, they learned it by themselves ''just for fun''.
This is why said clients have hard time taking these job seriously sadly. The nice thing with CG is that it requires a good deal of TECHNICAL knowledge to perform which adds more difficulty to the learning, bringing less people to be attracted to it. Unlike Photoshop or Illustrator in which you open the software and start painting; modeling with good topology, scultping, texturing in good texel ratio, making good shaders, lighting, all that in a 3D space brings more material to the learning curve. You can start learning it by yourself, but it's much more harder and complicated than painting, photography and designing; better if you're a CG artist, there's a fair chance you can do at least one those last 3 (a bit).
I can hammer a nail it does not make me a carpenter, the difference between amateur and professional work is always evident. If clients can't make the difference they're in the wrong business, I have yet to see a graphic design or logo made by a non professional that does'nt scream amateurism. That quality comes with years of training and experience and that's worth money. Photoshop buttons/filters will never replace that, a professional would instantly see through them anyway. The problem is not competition in the field, it's the mentality that the creative process is not something that should be paid like a piece of furniture would, that's why people tend to pirate software, music or art without even thinking about it, they do not see all the intelluctual and creative work behind it. btw Painting at a high level is infinitly more complicated then 3d...
it's the mentality that the creative process is not something that should be paid like a piece of furniture would, that's why people tend to pirate software, music or art without even thinking about it, they do not see all the intelluctual and creative work behind it.
I gotta agree with this...
btw Painting at a high level is infinitly more complicated then 3d...
If you're talking about traditionnals like Norman Rockwell or Rembrandt, yes but digital painters, I do not agree...
Eh... the idea that people can pretend to be artists or whatever to get work... that's kinda why we make portfolio's right?
This is what I said. Anyone can build a portfolio just like anyone can build a table and call himself a carpenter. The result work will always be the one defining what you really are.
See, whenever a relative come to ask me to do some 3D design for him for free, I consider that my skills are still amateurish. If my work was truly professionnal, he woudn't even bother to come at me since just by looking at my stuff, he would know I would charge for that quality of work.
It's all bollocks and has been going on for decades, started with the music bizz btw. Once creativity goes down this road everything goes to the shits and no one will or can stop it. Working for free is a wet dream for any CEO and as crazy as it sounds it has become a reality. Ideas stolen, concept stolen and talent abused is the new fronter for 3d artists.
See, whenever a relative come to ask me to do some 3D design for him for
free, I consider that my skills are still amateurish. If my work was
truly professionnal, he woudn't even bother to come at me since just by
looking at my stuff, he would know I would charge for that quality of
work.
The day you'll ask to be paid to do the job, then you'll become a professionist, otherwise they'll abuse your good will. You have to make it clear that you work for money, and your skills are not available for free.
Lol, sorry but the idea that people stop asking if you can do free work because you all of a sudden have become "a professional" or an amazing portfolio is hysterical to me. Having a good portfolio more likely makes you more visible to other people, equaling more "requests." Even programmers sometimes get asked to work for free.
There's plenty of projects I'd like to work on for free, but the reality of the situation is I model to pay the bills and don't have the free time to do additional projects for free beyond my personal work. Time = Money the older I get, versus where I was in highschool or college and didn't have anything serious to worry about and could just work on mods for fun all day long.
On the opposite end, sometimes I'll do a little research into something like industry developments in water simulation or visuals after work and share it with my manager if I think it's something that might be worthwhile looking at. I'll do that "for free" because it's something that I personally did in my spare time on my own choice, which is a huge difference versus if my manager specifically tells me to do a task or I'm on company time where I have to be focused on specific goals.
The factor attributed to skill level as an example is you can hire a junior artist who can model something to your level of detail required and it will take him a week and possibly some guidance, or you can hire a more experienced artist that might take them half that time to model the same thing = more money because he can now model a second object = quicker production cycle = chance to create more within a set amount of time or the same number of objects but to a higher quality OR the same number of objects at the same level of quality in less time but you can get your product out the door faster.
The other factor on why a experienced "professional" would get paid more is that they require less guidance, are more dependable on reaching set tasks and estimating correctly the amount of time it will take, and of course can oversee other junior artists and improve the team and/or workflows. A higher level of skill also usually means that person has spent more of their time in their life on their skills = more time spent = higher pay.
Why do you think doctors get paid so much? They're always in high demand, and to gain their level of knowledge and skills requires years of JUST schooling + working. But that also doesn't stop those same doctors from working for free going to a poor country to help save lives, because the ones who do it do it because something they want to do, believe in, and can actually afford to do it without having to worry about their bills/starving to death (humanitarian donations and savings/covered medicine and transportation, government aid, etc.). It also is a profession that's more of a necessity compared to entertainment which factors into the demand rate being much higher, although entertainment is in a high demand in more developed countries = a higher demand for quality entertainment than say somewhere where the mortality rate is atrocious.
But all of that doesn't matter, because someone who wants something for free will ask that person if they will work for free no matter who they are. And there are people that will work for free or at low costs because they either have the luxury of time and really enjoy the project, their costs of living are cheaper, or they are working solely on improving themselves and gaining some renown (and hopefully don't have to worry about doing it for money yet).
You can run into some problems of course due to supply and demand (more artists = more competition), which can also work the opposite way such as a new studio being formed (might pay more for more experienced/local artists), a new project getting commissioned (can actually pay their artists to do it now that they have the budget), or a falling behind in/tight deadlines (need to bring in experienced people who work fast and deliver quality reliably.)
Wow that went all over the place and probably contradicted itself a couple of times. Oh well another night of discussions on polycount
[EDIT] I also don't mind not paid until completion if its a relatively quick job and the client has proved to pay on time in the past. If it's a long project that's not a few days of work, or a new client, there should be payment milestones.
if anyone is coming to you for any work, they are coming to you for something they cannot do, I cannot generate electricity, hence why I go to a electricity company and pay them to keep the lights on, if you come to me wanting me to do 3D, you are going to have to pay me, because if you didn't want my skills you wouldn't ask me to do it, so clearly you believe my skills are up to the task at hand, and unless you can hand crank me some electricity while baking me some bread, I suggest we come to an agreement on what I am going to get paid.
Now one caveat to that is, we are all at different levels, and we wont get all paid the same, this is a meritocracy you get by on the work you are able to produce and often the speed you can produce it, so I am not saying, to start overcharging beyond your level although obviously don't take work that isn't going to cover your costs, but do get PAID.
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Replies
After seeing this I understand better.
Here's my take on this; if you're working in a field where alot of people which are not professional can ''imitate'' or simulate ''professionnal'' work, then you need to push harder so youre stuff clearly proves you're more specialized and worthy than the others...
See, as an artist having knowledge in the field, I can differentiate the work of an actual professionnal photographer and the work of an hobbyist. Same goes for graphic design. Alot of people can't sadly and it decreases the value of your work.
Nowaday, too many people can tweak some automatic buttons on a fancy cam, too many amateurs can play with Photoshop and calls themselves ''artists''...Those who have studied in said fields have more competitions if they don't show what ''professional'' work is.
Same goes for 3D modeling or CG work. Show that you can do better than the other kids out here, show that you're not a hobbyist, show that you have more knowledge and if the client see it in your work, he won't even bother coming to ask you working for free.
I know the reality is far form this but that's how things should be...Everything changes according to the field. I would be really stressed for exmaple, if I studied Liberal Art. Go take a tour on DeviantArt or ArtStations, so many people out there can pull magnificent artworks without having studied painting, color theory and lighting. And they grow by the minute, always adding new competitions every day to the market...when in fact, they learned it by themselves ''just for fun''.
This is why said clients have hard time taking these job seriously sadly. The nice thing with CG is that it requires a good deal of TECHNICAL knowledge to perform which adds more difficulty to the learning, bringing less people to be attracted to it. Unlike Photoshop or Illustrator in which you open the software and start painting; modeling with good topology, scultping, texturing in good texel ratio, making good shaders, lighting, all that in a 3D space brings more material to the learning curve. You can start learning it by yourself, but it's much more harder and complicated than painting, photography and designing; better if you're a CG artist, there's a fair chance you can do at least one those last 3 (a bit).
So yeh...
The problem is not competition in the field, it's the mentality that the creative process is not something that should be paid like a piece of furniture would, that's why people tend to pirate software, music or art without even thinking about it, they do not see all the intelluctual and creative work behind it.
btw Painting at a high level is infinitly more complicated then 3d...
cheers
If you're talking about traditionnals like Norman Rockwell or Rembrandt, yes but digital painters, I do not agree...
Arguing that case is like arguing that cowboy builders don't exist.
This is what I said. Anyone can build a portfolio just like anyone can build a table and call himself a carpenter.
The result work will always be the one defining what you really are.
See, whenever a relative come to ask me to do some 3D design for him for free, I consider that my skills are still amateurish. If my work was truly professionnal, he woudn't even bother to come at me since just by looking at my stuff, he would know I would charge for that quality of work.
I don't know if I'm being clear here?:D
people come to you and ask you to work for free because they think it's both normal and acceptable in our line of work. it's not and it needs to stop.
full stop.
Refuse/Resist
The day you'll ask to be paid to do the job, then you'll become a professionist, otherwise they'll abuse your good will. You have to make it clear that you work for money, and your skills are not available for free.
There's plenty of projects I'd like to work on for free, but the reality of the situation is I model to pay the bills and don't have the free time to do additional projects for free beyond my personal work. Time = Money the older I get, versus where I was in highschool or college and didn't have anything serious to worry about and could just work on mods for fun all day long.
On the opposite end, sometimes I'll do a little research into something like industry developments in water simulation or visuals after work and share it with my manager if I think it's something that might be worthwhile looking at. I'll do that "for free" because it's something that I personally did in my spare time on my own choice, which is a huge difference versus if my manager specifically tells me to do a task or I'm on company time where I have to be focused on specific goals.
The factor attributed to skill level as an example is you can hire a junior artist who can model something to your level of detail required and it will take him a week and possibly some guidance, or you can hire a more experienced artist that might take them half that time to model the same thing = more money because he can now model a second object = quicker production cycle = chance to create more within a set amount of time or the same number of objects but to a higher quality OR the same number of objects at the same level of quality in less time but you can get your product out the door faster.
The other factor on why a experienced "professional" would get paid more is that they require less guidance, are more dependable on reaching set tasks and estimating correctly the amount of time it will take, and of course can oversee other junior artists and improve the team and/or workflows. A higher level of skill also usually means that person has spent more of their time in their life on their skills = more time spent = higher pay.
Why do you think doctors get paid so much? They're always in high demand, and to gain their level of knowledge and skills requires years of JUST schooling + working. But that also doesn't stop those same doctors from working for free going to a poor country to help save lives, because the ones who do it do it because something they want to do, believe in, and can actually afford to do it without having to worry about their bills/starving to death (humanitarian donations and savings/covered medicine and transportation, government aid, etc.). It also is a profession that's more of a necessity compared to entertainment which factors into the demand rate being much higher, although entertainment is in a high demand in more developed countries = a higher demand for quality entertainment than say somewhere where the mortality rate is atrocious.
But all of that doesn't matter, because someone who wants something for free will ask that person if they will work for free no matter who they are. And there are people that will work for free or at low costs because they either have the luxury of time and really enjoy the project, their costs of living are cheaper, or they are working solely on improving themselves and gaining some renown (and hopefully don't have to worry about doing it for money yet).
You can run into some problems of course due to supply and demand (more artists = more competition), which can also work the opposite way such as a new studio being formed (might pay more for more experienced/local artists), a new project getting commissioned (can actually pay their artists to do it now that they have the budget), or a falling behind in/tight deadlines (need to bring in experienced people who work fast and deliver quality reliably.)
Wow that went all over the place and probably contradicted itself a couple of times. Oh well another night of discussions on polycount
[EDIT] I also don't mind not paid until completion if its a relatively quick job and the client has proved to pay on time in the past. If it's a long project that's not a few days of work, or a new client, there should be payment milestones.
Now one caveat to that is, we are all at different levels, and we wont get all paid the same, this is a meritocracy you get by on the work you are able to produce and often the speed you can produce it, so I am not saying, to start overcharging beyond your level although obviously don't take work that isn't going to cover your costs, but do get PAID.