3D Coat vs zBrush (noob post)

cgBrad

I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for this, but I recently took up doing some 3d sculpting. The industry standard seems to be zBrush. I understand why, mostly because it "feels good" but overall if it was any other 3d program everyone would be up in arms over how bad the interface is (and it is terrible btw). zBrush has a lot of weak spots for the price. 3d Coat has a sane interface, that makes sense, and can be modified to your content.

3d coat has great sculpting tools, painting, retopo, and more. Which makes me ask, why not 3d coat? I am aware of the crazy Christian vibe they give. I'm atheist and it doesn't bug me (because I'm a better person than you are).

I don't know, I need to hear it from pros that zBrush is the definitive way to go.

Tiles

It's imho not a versus. But a and. It all depends of your goals and if the tool does the job. 3D Coat has much better retopo for example. ZBrush much better hard surface sculpting.

ysalex

I hear this soooo much about zbrush, and my answer now is just this:

Suck it up, learn it. It takes 2 weeks to get a good feel for it. Its the industry standard for a reason, if you want to get anywhere as an character artist you have to learn it, and last if I chose not to learn every 3d package that made me feel a little uncomfortable when I started it up for the first time, I'd be nowhere.

>I understand why, mostly because it "feels good"

not even close. People like it because its powerful and frankly for me at least the interface is part of why its so quick to model in.

>I need to hear it from pros that zBrush is the definitive way to go.

I suspect you've already heard it several times over.

PyrZern

Mostly I use 3d coat for retop and UV mapping. However, for sculpting, Zbrush is def. the way to go. Just learn the interface, then everything becomes a breeze.

Play with the interface, customize it to your liking. Once I customized my canvas, all problems I was having went away.

PolyHertz

As a regular 3DCoat user, I would say its great for painting, and good for retopology and UVs.

But for sculpting it just lacks too much;
-no sculpt layers
-no 'step up/down subdivion' workflow
-no fibermesh equivalent
-no micromesh equivalent
-no painting at the same time as sculpting
-etc.

As much as I like 3DC, for sculpting, it's simply not in the same league as ZBrush, and I don't think it ever will be.

RogerP

Honestly I never got the whole "zBrushs UI is so complicated" you can customize it to your liking and as with any other piece of software is just a matter of getting used to it.

I do use 3D Coat, the retopo and UV tools are wayyyyy better than zBrushs. Sculpting wise I'm not sure as I haven't tried 3D Coats sculpting tools, but I have a feeling it's not gonna be better than zBrush for sculpting.

kanga

I keep checking out 3d coat to see how it is coming along and its come a long way. I think the maker (of 3d coat not the Maker ) backpedaled after the release statement that no devils were permitted from the software. It was probably a burnout statement anyhow. First time I fired up a demo it didnt work and I never went back. I also think calling the Z UI awful is really odd. I think Maya has a ton of hidden tools, probably more than Z so its just a case of learning your way around.

Aabel

3d-coat handles booleans and dynamesh type sculpting tasks way better than zbrush.

Urzaz

I think it's the design and computer nerd in me that really loves Zbrush. Zbrush is really well designed. It's just not like other programs, which makes sense, because other programs didn't do what Zbrush was trying to do. I'm very glad Zbrush threw away the CAD interface inheritance and created something new.

It's fairly difficult to learn though. I recommend learning camera controls and basic hotkeys first, I work with minimal UI modifications, personally. I'm sure I'll add on eventually, though.

As others have said 3DCoat for retopo and UV, especially for your organic stuff. I could see an argument made if you're doing indie games on a tight budget and only want to hipoly sculpt occasionally, but there's so much you can do with Zbrush it's not even funny. There's also a huge benefit to the support and userbase that won't exist with 3DCoat. Don't underestimate being able to google answers to anything, it's really important.

FourtyNights

I'm using Zbrush as it is, with a default UI and keyboard shortcuts and it still feels good and reasonable fast, especially when using certain hotkeys.

Well... them minimal customization is that I drag and drop some options/settings to the left bar area for easier access, such as "Stroke" and "Light" which I use a lot.

Carlosan

The sculpt on 3DCoat is more similar to Sculptris -Dynamic tessellation-
You only add detail where is needed.

The new paint system with PBR materials is very good.

To achieve more goals -as Polyhertz said- the dev team is refactoring all the code preparing the way for the new Version 5.

Standard = ZBrush
Swiss army = 3DC

Note:
You can test the new demo at:
http://3d-coat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=17076

Equanim

I read somewhere (probably here) that ZBrush's UI was designed specifically with a stylus in mind as its primary input.

The real advantage to ZBrush is the workflow. Proper subdivision and edge flow management are insanely powerful because they allow you to make large and small edits at the same time, so you create good results very quickly.

Admittedly though, you have to do a few projects with it to really understand why all of the above is a good thing. 3D Coat is much more approachable for beginners, and as Carlosan said, it's a great Swiss army knife, but ZBrush is by far the most powerful sculpting tool at an intermediate level and above.

edit: I own, use, and recommend both for the various reasons already in this thread.

Tobbo

The interface may be a learning curve, but it's really not that bad once you get used to it.

I think the price point is pretty reasonable too. And considering every upgrade has been free is pretty nice.

DireWolf

Zbrush is not complicated... it's just different.

If you have never used other 3d apps before, this isn't even an issue. Every apps have their initial learning curve and Zbrush is no harder than anything else.

Even so, go ahead and visit zbrushcentral.com. If what you see there can't inspire you to learn Zbrush, then there's no point discussing about this any further.

raleif

At school, I heard a story that the person who designed the zbrush interface had never used a computer before.
I'm still not sure if it was a joke or not.

I've never used 3dcoat, so I can't give you any advice side by side. However, the biggest argument for using zbrush was already stated here: its the industry standard. Basically, until that changes, you should learn it.

prubini87

Go ZBrush. The viewport and the UI, in general, may be disorienting but the tools are amazing. Pixologic has recently released a stripped down version of ZBrush called ZBrushCore, and they're already making some interesting changes to the interface... ZBrushCore, I believe, is much cheaper than ZBrush and, if it goes by its own name, it has the core features of ZBrush in it and it may suit your needs!!  Good luck!

Justin Meisse

Zbrush has improved so much since it's initial release. Once you learn it's ins and outs it feels like second nature.

I use 3DCoat primarily for painting 'old school' diffuse textures, it's 3d painting tools are great for it's price but since I've been doing PBR work, Substance Painter wins, hands down.

Mant1k0re

RogerP said:

Honestly I never got the whole "zBrushs UI is so complicated" you can customize it to your liking and as with any other piece of software is just a matter of getting used to it.

Not targeting you in particular... just an example among countless others. Zooming is a 3 steps operation and the key combination is super weird. You can get used to anything but is that good user experience? I don't know if it changed but last time I checked there was no way to customize that for instance. And why is that? If Pixologic was really awesome at empowering users they would give them options for everything, including for this very questionable design choice that is hated by many, not just me.

I use Zbrush like everyone else because it's very powerful but that doesn't prevent me from hating its UI for the things I can't change.

cryrid

Mant1k0re said:

Zooming is a 3 steps operation and the key combination is super weird. You can get used to anything but is that good user experience?

This feels like a  deceptive argument to make. When you have something like camera controls which have three different types of movements involved (rotate, translate, and scale), then you're going to wind up with 3 different combinations. If one of those three combinations does not involve a "3-step" operation then you're going to be looking at using more than three keys in total. 

There is actually an elegant simplicity to zbrush's setup that focuses on using just one button for all navigation (right-click), whose behavior gets changed by the (universal) keyboard modifiers. 

Zbrush:

Rotate = Right

Translate = Alt + Right

Scale = Ctrl + Alt + Right

That is not weird at all. It plays off the same modifiers you'll be using all throughout zbrush while sculpting and painting, and is actually extremely well suited for a stylus as pens do not traditionally come with several buttons and a scroll wheel. One camera button with two modifiers means you do not have to take your pen off the tablet in order to change views as you sculpt. Other painting programs such as Substance Painter also offer very similar Ctrl+Alt modifiers for pen-only navigation, though its setup is not nearly as simple.

Substance Painter:

Rotate = Alt + Left 

Translate = Ctrl+ Alt + Right

Scale = Alt + Right

Because the right and left clicks are already bound to menus and painting, SP relies on using at least two modifiers for each type of camera movement. This still leads to one 3-step operation to cover the third type of movement, and it makes things even more complicated by alternating between left and right clicking depending on the type of movement you want. Now this is a mess that becomes harder to find the thought behind. Thankfully it offers the traditional mouse controls,  which is almost the reverse of zbrush.

"Mouse":

Rotate = Alt + Left

Translate = Alt + Middle

Scale = Alt + Right

I say reverse because it uses one keyboard key for the camera (the alt key, compared to zbrush's right click), whose behavior then gets changed by combining it with different types of clicking. In other words it uses the right hand for modifiers instead of the left - neither is exactly weird. This setup works out well for traditional modeling programs which use a mouse, but makes it harder for pen navigation as it can require a total of four different keys (with the burden being placed on the pen's buttons) compared to zbrush's three keys (with the burden placed on the keyboard's). If you're using a pen then you're most likely taking it off the tablet in order to use the mouse when it comes time to navigate. But hey, you can get used to anything...

----

Additionally ZBrush does have the "Alt+Release" method which lets you completely control the camera with just one thumb and the pen. It is weird only in that it is unique, but otherwise it is very easy to learn and extremely fast when in use (not to mention extremely handy if you use a button on your tablet for the Alt key, or if the tablet itself is a touch screen). So yes, I think this does make it a good user experience and other pen-based programs would do well to adopt similar toggles.

Lastly, zbrush also has a one-step operation for zooming ;P

musashidan

@Mant1k0re Nothing hateful about it at all. Zooming is the same combo as Maya(ctrl instead of alt) when using the Right mouse button nav style.

CTRL+R  = zoom
R = orbit
ALT+R = pan.

Simple.

Plus, all of these can be initiated anywhere on the canvas without having to find a blank part off the tool, or the canvas buffer region.

blankslatejoe

You're not crazy to be second guessing zbrush. The Zbrush interface is backwards, ignores 35 years of cross-program, cross-OS, standardization that helps ground new users, often reveals its weird rarely-still-used legacy 2.5d roots, and is otherwise an exercise in raw memorization of unique-to-zbrush categories and commands that no other 3d tool, regardless of complexity, comes even close to matching.

However, it is ALSO probably the most revolutionary, and probably most powerful, single program in the history of 3d modeling. If you decide not to learn it, you'd better be very, very, very good at other tools in the pipeline.

Mant1k0re

Guys, you're making valid points comparing to other packages, but I never said Maya or Substance Painter or Max for that matters had the ideal UI either. I'm saying I should be able to change this behavior if I so please, which is not the case in Zbrush. I'm happy for you that you enjoy Zbrush UI; but I know for a fact my opinion is shared by many, some of them experienced and respected artists. I'm saying the combo is weird because it goes against 90% of the other tools I use, that's it.

miriamylam

Honestly, if you can do all you need in 3Dcoat, why not stick with it? Just use whatever tool best fits your needs and preferences.

nervouschimp

3D-coat has a fairly conventional UI so there is nothing really to learn. It's easy to pick up and use. You can rip through most background props really fast in 3D-coat because it's an all-in-one complete game asset pipeline. For hero assets, maybe stick to zbrush. Why not get them both and use the tool most appropriate for the task at hand?

pior

For those interested it is definitely possible to set the Zbrush viewport controls to be exactly like Maya, and once you do that there is zero reason to go back. Every personal preference can be debated and argued forever but it is undeniable that being able to control all 3d programs exactly the same way is a plus, not a minus - regardless of one considering a given scheme to be good or bad.

What you need is two plugins :

• Zswitcher from DigitalRaster for alt-based navigation :
https://draster.com/ZSwitcher/

• The "Middle Button" plugin, letting you set mousewheel to zoom (amongst other features that I personally don't use) :
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?183019-quot-Middle-Button-quot-Plug-in-for-ZBrush-4R6

Yes it works, and no you won't lose any Zbrush features by relying on these plugins. Zswitcher simply relocates Ctrl masking to Tab, and all the mesh hiding/unhiding combos remain untouched (ctrl-shift + alt still works and so does shift-snapping). The only time when Zswitcher needs to be disabled is when rearranging UI elements with Enable Customize.

JedTheKrampus

I don't like the way that the Zbrush camera navigation works, but I do like the way that it's set up with mouse clicks and such. Maybe it's just me but if you're using the program all day it's a lot easier to do most of your navigation using the tip of the stylus only rather than the tip and both of the side buttons. It's at least a bit more ergonomic.

pior

Jed : running Zswitcher does not disable the "click the canvas outside the model to rotate" and "let go of pan to zoom" behaviors.

The plugin basically gives you Maya navigation along with the benefits of the clever default Zbrush paradigm.  It's pretty much best of both worlds really

That said I personally use both mouse and stylus at the same time therefore I can't comment on spending a whole day with stylus input only !

JedTheKrampus

Interesting. Next time I'm working on something 3D I'll have to give it a try.

CreativeSheep

I'm considering buying ZBrush Core, as I own Mudbox, I doubt I'll need the full zBrush.  After the sting Autodesk did to Mudbox, I'm not into spending another grand on a sculpting program.

Dataday

CreativeSheep said:

I'm considering buying ZBrush Core, as I own Mudbox, I doubt I'll need the full zBrush.  After the sting Autodesk did to Mudbox, I'm not into spending another grand on a sculpting program.

There are some serious restrictions however that you should be aware of. You only get 30 brushes and cant import new ones. There is a polycount limit within core. No spotlight/No texture maps apparently.  Its a hard sell for many.

You might get more out of 3D Coat in that case. Just food for thought.

CreativeSheep

At this point I'll continue to use Mud, until I decide to buy full zBrush.

gbball

As a long time 3D Coat user, I'd like to chime in.  I think 3D Coat is amazing for low poly sculpting and blocking things in using voxels and then bringing your sculpt to a certain point, but then there is a gap where you might want to take a sculpt to a more polished state after retopology.  Zbrush's ability to allow you step up and down through subdivision levels and make changes non destructively is such a big benefit that is hard to replicate in 3D Coat.  3D coat is really good for concept art and environment creation and it also offers a complete start to finish pipeline for making game ready assets that is pretty amazing.  It is also a pretty solid complementary tool to the substance suite and Zbrush...Also, it is especially good for people looking for an entry point into asset creation.  I owe almost all my understanding of the game asset creation pipeline to this software.  However, in terms of raw sculpting power and overall polish, Zbrush definitely takes the cake. 

I'm not a Zbrush expert, but I've recently purchased it after using 3D Coat for 7 years exclusively.  A few things I've noticed off the bat.

Zbrush handles symmetry along the center seam better than 3D Coat, especially when using the move tool. 
Zbrush has a topological move tool which 3D Coat inexplicable does not as of version 4.8.25.
Zbrush has a better masking workflow
Zbrush encourages finishing up with a uniform quad based sculpt using subdivision levels which gives the overall sculpt a much superior quality and cleanliness
Zbrush makes it easier to work on a mesh in tight corners without destroying adjacent areas
Zbrush has a faster and more consistent Retopo (Zremesher) But whether or not the results are better is debatable.  3D Coat can make some very high quality autotopo meshes with very good edgeflow...even in faces
Zbrush has way better edgeflow control while sculpting   
Zbrush has a much deeper sculpting system overall 
Zbrush sculpting shaders look a lot better and it's a lot easier to see the state of your sculpt.  Literally the same sculpt in 3d coat and Zbrush looks better in Zbrush which alone gives the impression to a user that it makes better sculpts.

3D Coat is better for early block ins and offers really free sculpting both in Voxel sculpt mode and surface sculpt mode.  You almost never have to worry about polygon stretching
3D Coat has way easier interface
3D Coat has fully customizable PBR shaders for sculpting which can be baked down to your retopo mesh within the program and used as a basis for further PBR texture painting
3D Coat is probably the best tool for hand painting textures
3D Coat lets you make custom PBR smart materials (I would generate smart materials in Substance Designer and import texture maps to 3D Coat for PBR sculpt shaders and PBR smart materials for texture painting)
3D Coat has great retopo and UV tools
3D Coat booleans are really powerful
3D Coat has tons of untapped potential...it's literally a few sculpting tools away from really good alternative to Zbrush sculpting wise (topological move tool, quad based sculpting with subdivision levels and image based re-projection of sculpt data onto mesh, more sensible sculpt shaders by default and better handling of the mesh along the center when sculpting with symmetry) 
3D Coat recently added sculpt layers that leverage it's powerful texture painting toolset
3D Coat has 3D bezier curves that can be used for sculpting in a multitude of ways.

My workflow will likely be to start a sculpt in 3D Coat.  Block out my main forms using Voxels and then refining in surface mode.  Then when I'm ready to move forward, doing an autotopo or manual retopo in 3D Coat to move into Zbrush.  Or bring my high poly sculpt mesh from 3D Coat into Zbrush and do a Zremesher before finalizing things in Zbrush with sudivision levels.  When done sculpting, I'll do my baking and finish texture painting in 3D Coat or Substance.

CreativeSheep

Will that untapped potential arrive to 3D Coat anytime soon ? And if you where to buy one of the two today, would you still buy 3D Coat over ZBrush ?

gbball

CreativeSheep, That's a great question.  Since 3D Coat is such a broad program that allows you to make your assets start to finish, it has a lot of users who use it for just for 1 or 2 specific things in their pipeline and they'll often request features that work for their particular workflow so often things like sculpting tools get neglected for a while.  The developers do their best to provide features that people ask for, but with a small team, it often takes quite some time until the features you're looking for get addressed.  It can't keep up with more specialized programs, it really is a jack of all trades master of none issue.  It's great for making game ready assets across the board, but when you want to do more with your sculpting, or texturing, you might want to use more specialized tools such as Zbrush for sculpting or Substance/Quixel for textures.  If I had to choose only one of them today, I personally would probably choose 3D Coat again.  The lack of quad based, non-destructive subdivision sculpting is a huge issue for me, but I can work around it, I also use Blender which does offer that so for a long time I had a hard time justifying the purchase of Zbrush.  If 3D Coat had that, I probably would have stuck with it alone for the time being.  I've found ways to do some nice sculpts in it, but it involves a few tricky workflow hacks that just aren't necessary in Zbrush.  So many progams do subdivision sculpting that it seems like a fairy easy thing to implement, same for a topological move tool, but the whole program is based around triangle based sculpting with of course lends itself to dynamic remeshing and voxel sculpting where it kills it, but there is a glaring hole in the sculpt workflow where subdivision sculpting needs to be.

3D Coat is a great innovator, but needs to nail some of the basics to really shine.  Zbrush's Zremesher, dynamic subdivision and even dynamesh are all things that 3D Coat had first, so Zbrush has no issue copying from a competitor.  I would love to see 3D Coat do the same thing, as I write this the devs could be coming up with something far superior to subdiv sculpting that no one has seen before.  I wouldn't put it past them.