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Has anyone moved from a commercial modeling app to Blender?

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  • Defunct
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    Defunct polycounter lvl 10
    wats a Tatarus? :poly004:
  • Dataday
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    Dataday polycounter lvl 8
    Defunct wrote: »
    wats a Tatarus? :poly004:

    Its a one handed keyboard of sorts, geared for gaming but also popular with some artist.

    Here is an example of one such product: http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-keyboards-keypads/razer-orbweaver
  • Rev
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    Rev
    BTolputt wrote: »
    FWIW, the UI Team (most of whom are at one remove from the Blender Foundation) are working on improving some of the "bat-sh%t crazy decisions" in the user interface. Standard LMB style selection of objects (click, drag-box, etc) is going to become default, there is going to be a home-row for the common operations, etc. The revamp is not getting (any?) priority from the Blender Foundation many outside the "Blender bubble" think it deserves, but it is making headway despite that.

    Whilst not a final map, the below keymap is the kind of thing that we can expect from the new defaults when they get around to finishing it. Perhaps not everyone's cup'o'tea but nowhere near as bass-ackwards as it is now.

    2hz3bqs.png

    Looks like that was started nearly 2 years ago?
  • BTolputt
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    DireWolf wrote: »
    @BTolputt what's the chance of Blender Foundation accepting this new key map?
    If you were to ask me personally, in my somewhat jaded view, I think Ton will delay this as long as he can. If he wanted to give the new keymap (& mouse interactions) priority - I think he would have by now. He was forced by a community explosion (i.e. the Andrew Price surveys & discussions thereof) into allowing others to override his preferences without his veto hanging over them. I personally think this will make it into Blender when Ton runs out of room to delay it further and not before.

    That said, I am very cynical about leadership decisions in Blender. I don't react well to being fed bullsh%t and I can no longer simply trust public statements made by the Blender Foundation. As such, I'm not the best person to ask.
  • Zephiris
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    Zephiris polygon
    Since many of you seem interested in the pies - it's not that hard to make/bake your own.
    There's a tutorial on it here https://vimeo.com/103321600 .
  • passerby
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    passerby polycounter lvl 12
    Zephiris wrote: »
    Since many of you seem interested in the pies - it's not that hard to make/bake your own.
    There's a tutorial on it here https://vimeo.com/103321600 .

    can those be nested to act like the maya marking menu?
  • flat-D
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    flat-D polycounter lvl 6
    passerby wrote: »
    can those be nested to act like the maya marking menu?

    They can be nested.
    Here's a chart of a Pie Menu that has Nested Pies.
    This is part of the Wazou's RMB Pie Menu Addon (with minor edits on my end). It is context sensitive and this is what you get when you are in Sculpt Mode (other thigs pop-up in other Modes).
    So this demonstrates how this Pie Menu is Context Sensitive even for Sculpting, depending weather Dyntopo is enabled or not. You should get the picture. Basically Pie Menus in Blender stretch as far as your python coding abilities.

    Wazou's%20RMB%20Pie_SculptMode_NestedChart.jpg

    In effect, this one hotkey, allows for everything I need when sculpting in Dyntopo - right under my mouse. Not to mention that same hotkey has other things in other Modes.

    I strongly recommend both Wazou Pie Menus.
    Wazou's Pie Menus
    Wazou's RMB Pie Menu

    And while I'm at it selling the goodies, I might point anyone new to Blender to this impecably arranged Addon, that will help you learn Blender easier. You don't know where to find something - you'll find it here!
    rRMB Menu
  • Spiffy
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    Spiffy polycounter lvl 12
    Jesus, I understand wanting to group like keys together but if they're going to change the layout they may as well just go to the standard QWER Transform bindings that nearly every other piece of 3D software uses.
    I get they're trying to find a middle ground but I don't think it's necessary, especially when most people use Blender in conjunction with other software. May as well stop confusing the new comers with constantly changing controls between software.
    Kind of related:

    https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png

    Anyway, I didn't switch from Blender, it's wlays been my No.1 go to piece of software. I tried to switch to Maya and couldn't, give the strides Blender has been taking, I don't think I will ever switch.
  • xrg
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    xrg polycounter lvl 10
    QWER is the plan, that image is old is all.

    I think they need to get more active people on the UI team to actually get it done though. Current members seem to be too busy with other things, and progress on it is extremely sluggish to say the least.
  • Dataday
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    Dataday polycounter lvl 8
    xrg wrote: »
    QWER is the plan, that image is old is all.

    I think they need to get more active people on the UI team to actually get it done though. Current members seem to be too busy with other things, and progress on it is extremely sluggish to say the least.

    The annoying thing is that the few arguing for ASD and hating on QWER used the "my fingers cant reach"/"its too far" argument. *insert facepalm*

    I cant help but question if the slow development/lack of interest in more UI developers is done by design...or maybe they are just too jaded at this point.
  • BTolputt
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    I think the slow development on the part of the UI Team is down to the amount of time they have spare to work on it. Remember that the Blender Foundation is not paying for work on that area (insert snark about BF priorities here). They are (or were) slotting this in between tasks that pay the bills.

    It's a big job which is problematic in & of itself. When you combine that with passive resistance from inside the Blender Foundation, active resistance from Blender fanboys encouraged by that, and the fact that the main contributors to that code cannot afford to piss off either of these groups when it comes to their livelihood - it's a wonder they're working on it at all!
  • xrg
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    xrg polycounter lvl 10
    I doubt it's by design. Ton has even tried pushing the UI team. Jonathan Williamson is the coder for keymaps afaik, and he's been busy doing the new version of CGCookie and Retopoflow stuff. I think they just need someone else with more freetime.
  • SonicBlue
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    SonicBlue polycounter lvl 10
    Why I clicked on that link, why?!

    The gamers argument is so stupid, really, what games have to do with a DCC?

    I don't believe this people really understand what they are doing, S=Scale, G=Grab (lol the M for Move was too far away), R=Rotate, because in other software W=Wove, E=Eotate and R=Rale, simply as that.

    If I where them, I would take some times and study the other applications, in which they actually spent money researching UI and key functionalities, not some guess work or "I like that because I have kid hands".
  • Wolthera
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    Wolthera polycounter lvl 5
    SonicBlue wrote: »
    Why I clicked on that link, why?!

    The gamers argument is so stupid, really, what games have to do with a DCC?

    I don't believe this people really understand what they are doing, S=Scale, G=Grab (lol the M for Move was too far away), R=Rotate, because in other software W=Wove, E=Eotate and R=Rale, simply as that.

    If I where them, I would take some times and study the other applications, in which they actually spent money researching UI and key functionalities, not some guess work or "I like that because I have kid hands".
    They are arguing about things like that because they are taking it very seriously. Proffesional UX designers actually re-examine industry standards as well. I wouldn't worry too much about it, it's probably going to be WER regardless, but I don't think the debate is useless. It's just what a design process looks like.
  • SonicBlue
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    SonicBlue polycounter lvl 10
    Wolthera wrote: »
    They are arguing about things like that because they are taking it very seriously. Proffesional UX designers actually re-examine industry standards as well. I wouldn't worry too much about it, it's probably going to be WER regardless, but I don't think the debate is useless. It's just what a design process looks like.

    What I find strange are the absurd explanation for some kind of uncomfortable key set, totally ignoring that in video games, the W key is the one you use the most, along with E.

    I have Blender almost at its default keys, because if I change something, I break something else for sure, and this is one of the bigger problems of Blender, they leave the user with no other choice than search for every function that may use the same key you assigned. They need to address this kind of problems first, then think of a unified key set to please the majority of people.

    Easiest way is to do what XSI and now Maya do, this:

    BNmpfB3.png
    EHT4DG0.png

    Showing which key is assigned, in Blender you find a cascade of menus and submenus, the names are not helping either.

    Since we are talking about shortcuts and you seem to be the right person to ask this; in Krita on Windows (I have to check on Manjaro) the Save As... is assigned to CTRL+SHIFT+S, well, it doesn't work, also is not shown on the UI (File-->Save As...).
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    At the risk of sounding overly simplistic, I can think of a very straightforward way to solve the keymap/new users issue which consist of giving access to two input schemes from the splash screen :

    "New user" : relies on QWER for transformation, Maya-style navigation in all 3d and 2d windows, left and right mouse click switched, and not a single other shortcut assigned. And of course a mini tutorial explaining the above and also explaining how to assign one's own shortcuts. This would also force the Blender devs as well as third-party addon creators to make sure that they provide a UI input for every feature - and that can only be a good thing.

    "Legacy user" : the current input scheme, unchanged - that way users who like to use the defaults can still do it, and more advanced users can still import their own preferences from earlier releases without breaking anything.

    No need to reinvent the wheel !

    (and of course as mentioned above, the input editing window is in need of a serious refresh since the way it relies on filtering can cause one to easily lose track of things)
  • MmAaXx
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    MmAaXx polycounter lvl 10
    I think people should invest few days of their life to learn the blender workflow/shortcuts.
    also because all the infos and the tutorials are based on the default keymap.

    I move easly between blender/max/zbrush. I really don't see this as an issue.

    of course I'm not saying that blender is perfect, but a different keymap could not be a wall, If you really think that learning new shortcuts is too much for you, well you have dozen of expensive and bad developed software out there, don't waste your time with Blender.

    the question was if someone moved to blender, yes I did, I use it in production, for example I used in for the trailer of dark souls 3, to make the final king, the circlet and other few thing., I used it to make almost all the character in the smash brother trailer and I also used it to make other projects, but the list will be super long so I don't bother you too much.
    I'm not using blender because I'm a fan boy, I use it because I feel confortable and my workflow had a super boost in these years. I'm also using it because I can use everywhere in every company without any problem.
    As a modeler is easier to use blender in pipeline, but I don't see any huge problem to use it as main software in a mid-size pipeline.

    another cool thing is that it doesn't require any install, so you can save a specific copy of blender inside the project folder, so you can open and edit old files without any problem.

    sorry for the bad english.
  • Wolthera
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    Wolthera polycounter lvl 5
    SonicBlue wrote: »

    -snip images-

    Since we are talking about shortcuts and you seem to be the right person to ask this; in Krita on Windows (I have to check on Manjaro) the Save As... is assigned to CTRL+SHIFT+S, well, it doesn't work, also is not shown on the UI (File-->Save As...).
    That is bizare, because I have a nearly clean config on Linux Mint and ctrl+shift+s works here... If it still happens after the next new build(we're gonna have new builds somewhere at the end of this week if everything goes right), please report a bug at bugs.kde.org. I learned today from someone that f5 didn't work for them on win7 either(it's supossed to open the brush settings), which worries me. We need bugreports for these kind of things so that we can try to figure out what is happening.
  • SonicBlue
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    SonicBlue polycounter lvl 10
    Wolthera wrote: »
    That is bizare, because I have a nearly clean config on Linux Mint and ctrl+shift+s works here... If it still happens after the next new build(we're gonna have new builds somewhere at the end of this week if everything goes right), please report a bug at bugs.kde.org. I learned today from someone that f5 didn't work for them on win7 either(it's supossed to open the brush settings), which worries me. We need bugreports for these kind of things so that we can try to figure out what is happening.

    Tomorrow I'll try with Manjaro, but as for now the default CTRL+SHIFT+S on Windows 8.1 doesn't work.

    If you change it to something else, it does work:

    QbKB29P.pngUfYWHaC.png
    Default

    I would have reported the bug if wasn't for the fact that I don't want to register an account on a website that I know I won't use that much. The bug reporting could be improved by simply provide a form in which you input the problem description (the other informations are collected automatically by the software, like OS version and Kirta version) and an email to be contacted, this will make bug report much easier for everyone, and I know there are many people annoyed about these kind of things.

    Same thing with Blender, I don't know how many times I tried to report a bug (which is now solved) and their "register to report the bug" won't let me complete the registering operation, their site was buggy too.

    The F5 shortcut on Windows 8.1 x64 for me is working.
  • Wolthera
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    Wolthera polycounter lvl 5
    I would have reported the bug if wasn't for the fact that I don't want to register an account on a website that I know I won't use that much. The bug reporting could be improved by simply provide a form in which you input the problem description (the other informations are collected automatically by the software, like OS version and Kirta version) and an email to be contacted, this will make bug report much easier for everyone, and I know there are many people annoyed about these kind of things.
    Okay, but how do we know that when we try to communicate with you, you are indeed that e-mail address? Because the bugzilla account is literally only a password+e-mail address.

    More realistically, we just don't have the manpower to set that up, we can't even get a reliable system in place for making back-traces on windows. Maybe somewhere in the future, but not with our current resources. I guess you can use the help->report bug to skip the boring stuff, but that still requires an account. :(

    I am sorry if this comes across as unhelpful, but I don't want to baby you about these things, at the very least you deserve an explanation of why it isn't that way.

    We're getting a little off-topic here though.
  • passerby
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    passerby polycounter lvl 12
    pior wrote: »
    At the risk of sounding overly simplistic, I can think of a very straightforward way to solve the keymap/new users issue which consist of giving access to two input schemes from the splash screen :

    "New user" : relies on QWER for transformation, Maya-style navigation in all 3d and 2d windows, left and right mouse click switched, and not a single other shortcut assigned. And of course a mini tutorial explaining the above and also explaining how to assign one's own shortcuts. This would also force the Blender devs as well as third-party addon creators to make sure that they provide a UI input for every feature - and that can only be a good thing.

    "Legacy user" : the current input scheme, unchanged - that way users who like to use the defaults can still do it, and more advanced users can still import their own preferences from earlier releases without breaking anything.

    No need to reinvent the wheel !

    (and of course as mentioned above, the input editing window is in need of a serious refresh since the way it relies on filtering can cause one to easily lose track of things)

    +1

    Having a default Keymap that makes sense out of the box would be amazing, and i think would really help people who come to blender from other apps. Since it is really discouraging when you come to blender and you cant even do simple shit navigating or selecting things without having to look at the binds first.

    I work for a very small startup studio, and we had to go a week or so before we had money for our Maya licenses. So we used blender for 2 days just to get some basic exports and edits done. It was rather discouraging when to just do basic things like like deselecting everything, box selection and navigation i had to teach people since the controls for such things are so foreign to people who used any other 3d package.
  • SonicBlue
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    SonicBlue polycounter lvl 10
    Wolthera wrote: »
    Okay, but how do we know that when we try to communicate with you, you are indeed that e-mail address? Because the bugzilla account is literally only a password+e-mail address.

    More realistically, we just don't have the manpower to set that up, we can't even get a reliable system in place for making back-traces on windows. Maybe somewhere in the future, but not with our current resources. I guess you can use the help->report bug to skip the boring stuff, but that still requires an account. :(

    I am sorry if this comes across as unhelpful, but I don't want to baby you about these things, at the very least you deserve an explanation of why it isn't that way.

    We're getting a little off-topic here though.

    I totally understand the problem, I was also speaking in a general way, register to 10 different bug trackers is inconvenient for the normal user.

    The "Launch Bug Report Wizard" fooled me, it directs you to the KDE bugtracker website.

    Indeed, but this could be an idea for a Blender bug report application, as I had a really bad experience in the past reporting bugs for Blender. I still have the mails of the failed accounts registration for it, dating 2012.
  • Wolthera
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    Wolthera polycounter lvl 5
    Then you should definitely try again, they moved to phabricator, and phabricator is quite an update on their version of Bugzilla. (Both architecturally as well as usabiltiy wise.)

    (We're moving to phabricator as well, but we're still in testing phase)
  • Torch
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    Torch interpolator
    Random q - I am coming from a Maya background and have tinkered with Blender, but would like to take more time to learn it. If I use the Maya preset for navigation, will that mess with some of the essential hotkey's/functions?

    I'd ideally like to keep the same navigation style as Maya but be able to learn as much as I can from Blender tutorials... although this might be tricky if a lot of the hotkeys are switched around due to a different preset.
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    Torch : you are correct - using the Maya style preset offered from the splash screen will cause issues. The problem is that whoever designed this keymap "tried to hard", attempting to not only recreate the Maya navigation ... but also some of the Maya tool shortcuts, thus making the Blender documentation relying on the default Blender keymap hard to follow.

    Follow this instead :

    [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12fqTUyDts0[/ame]
  • .nL
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    .nL polycounter lvl 3
    I'd just keep the Blender defaults. It's a little weird at first, but it only took a couple of hours to get used to it (for me), and it makes the documentation out there a lot more immediately accessible.

    I may end up switching over to the Maya preset eventually, but I think it's best to learn a piece of software in its default state, before making decisions as to which parts need to be changed.
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    .nL - that's exactly my point. Following this video allows one to use the now widely accepted "Maya style" viewport navigation, without breaking anything. Best of both worlds :)
  • Torch
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    Torch interpolator
    Ahh sweet, thanks!!
  • flat-D
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    flat-D polycounter lvl 6
    Torch:
    You can try my setup. Besides having Maya Alt-Navigation, it's LMB-centric, with more familiar selection schemes and a bunch of other stuff. It's more than just hotkeys, comes with all of the Addons I use (my main focus is content creation), and with blender system settings that make it work more like Silo/Maya

    I've also tried to make it consistent throughout all the Editors/Windows. for instance in the timeline you use LMB for timeScroll, and Maya Alt-Navigation to navigate.
    In the Outliner you can click and Drag to (highlight)Select Multiple. Etc

    Even though I have changed a lot, the goal was to keep defaults as much as possible so people (and myself) could follow tutorials. Whatever was remapped is documented in that page I have linked on BA.
  • MmAaXx
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    MmAaXx polycounter lvl 10
    that's ridiculous are you seriously still talking about HOTKEYS?? xD this is very depressing to me.
  • BTolputt
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    It is depressing to many of us MmAaXx. However, kind of hard to skip the UI hurdle when it comes to a discussion about "moving to Blender". It's a pretty big hurdle for those new to the application ;)
  • Pizdos
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    Pizdos triangle
    I've took all possible trials for commercial so called "pro" tools. Nothing beats Blender for me. One is free, second starts instant, works on everything, do everything I need for my hobby. No point to spend lot's of money for a commercial tool to do same stuff.
  • passerby
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    passerby polycounter lvl 12
    Pizdos wrote: »
    I've took all possible trials for commercial so called "pro" tools. Nothing beats Blender for me. One is free, second starts instant, works on everything, do everything I need for my hobby. No point to spend lot's of money for a commercial tool to do same stuff.

    ya for hobby work i would never steer someone to maya or max. Its when working professionally where collaboration needs to happen and you work needs to fit into a existing pipeline that maya or max becomes important.
  • Pizdos
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    Pizdos triangle
    passerby wrote: »
    you work needs to fit into a existing pipeline that maya or max becomes important.

    That's why some commercial tools are still popular.
  • flat-D
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    flat-D polycounter lvl 6
    MmAaXx wrote: »
    that's ridiculous are you seriously still talking about HOTKEYS?? xD this is very depressing to me.

    I can feel so much rage :)

    MmAaXx, I have all the respect for you as an artist, and dig it that you use and promote Blender, so please don't take this personally - it's not.

    From my point of view there's 3-4 things that make eficient software

    1. Interaction (this is where Hotkeys, Mouse and GUI would fall under)
    2. Tool functionality
    3. Stability
    4. Customizability (which is tightly bound with 1. Interaction)

    Why would you be surprised we're discussing one of the most important aspects of a software, especially taken into account that this given software has one of the worst interaction schemes in modern software history. I'm going for the record with this one :) 'one of the worst interaction schemes in modern software history' LOL.

    Given that you use Blender on a daily basis, how many times a day do you use Box Select? Don't tell me that you still have it mapped to a key, B? That would be the worst spot to have it bound to, basically in the middle of the keyboard, so weather you're left/right handed, using a mouse/tablet, you always have to take your eyes off the screen look into the keyboard in order to Box Select. Why, when nearly every app on nearly every platform supports click and click-drag-box with same mouse combo. Why not take the time to set it up like that?!

    Here, try it out for a couple of days :)
    ...you don't have to use the same keys, just mix and match it with any combo you prefer, keep it all on the Mouse though! This will make your Click Select and Box Select be on the same Mouse button.
    BorderSelect.jpg
  • SonicBlue
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    SonicBlue polycounter lvl 10
    Actually I'm using a modified version of Max's box selection:

    B43lpaP.png

    So yes, he knows what he's doing ;D
  • flat-D
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    flat-D polycounter lvl 6
    Cool, it actually makes me feel better knowing he actually remapped it. I find it hard to believe anyone would leave Blender at it's defaults.

    But then you guys know how hard it is to customize Blender and should understand where all this discussion comes from. It is next to impossible for a novice to either customize, or use Blender without reading a bunch of tutorials. And we're not talking some super complex techie shit, just regular interactions.
  • SonicBlue
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    SonicBlue polycounter lvl 10
    Yeah, that's why I posted on the previous page why the shortcuts are not the main problem but rather the way you change them and the fact that you broke some function by changing something.

    Like in the Maya navigation style video (yes again) where the knife tool won't let you pan around if you don't change other stuff too.

    Blender needs a new system to handle shortcuts.
  • MmAaXx
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    MmAaXx polycounter lvl 10
    flat-D wrote: »

    Given that you use Blender on a daily basis, how many times a day do you use Box Select? Don't tell me that you still have it mapped to a key, B? That would be the worst spot to have it bound to, basically in the middle of the keyboard, so weather you're left/right handed, using a mouse/tablet, you always have to take your eyes off the screen look into the keyboard in order to Box Select. Why, when nearly every app on nearly every platform supports click and click-drag-box with same mouse combo. Why not take the time to set it up like that?!



    eheh yeah...

    I come from 2.4x era... so I customisation was not a feature at all!
    Now I changed/added something but not a lot..
    Here is the list:


    * as a Wacom user, of course left click selection

    * I inverted F6 and the Space bar functions, so with the space bar I always have the operator properties under my mouse.

    * ALT+RIGHT CLICK box selection

    * ALT+C make circle from looptools

    * ALT+M make flat from looptools

    * SHIT+Y select sharp edges


    thats all :)
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