I'm trying to recall the first time I saw Pior post on Polycount, sometime in the early 2000's, I think? He was awesome then and has accrued 15 years of more awesomeness under his belt. No offense to everyone else but I'd put a lot more weight on Pior's advice.
Aw thanks for the kind words Justin
But hey at least it doesn't necessarily have to take *that* long either - it's just like everything else, everybody follows their own unique road with shortcuts, detours and mistakes ...
One thing for sure, progressing in a field like this is easier and smoother when done out of personal pleasure rather than under pressure. Man, doing Quake3 models sure was a blast !
You just gave up man, its a longrun, you juste did 3 years its nothing
More like I don't have the time I had all these 3 past years. If you have a thesis to write and only have a half semester to do it... you kinda write it
I am still on the character modelling but... simply don't have the time to do it all day like I did these past years. Not to mention that now I "have to" earn my life.
I think it's much wiser to take the progressive path, fully embrace 3D modeling and start as a prop modeler/environment artist instead. That will allow you to work on small projects at first, learn the basic, learn sub-d modeling, game texturing, how to work with colors, shapes, image composition, lighting, shaders, etc. And eventually you will naturally feel comfortable enough to step up your game and work on highly detailed game characters. And to complete challenges quickly might make you happier during the long trip.
But if you just want to become strictly a character artist, just focus on zbrush, photoshop and the UE4-meterial editor. You'll only need 3DS Max for retopo or a few things here and there.
And if you want to become a character designer, well just focus on zbrush and photoshop.
You just don't need to do traditional art to learn how to draw, sculpt in zbrush, learn how to use colors, how to create interesting shapes, etc. You can learn and master all that through digital arts.
Edited:
Also...
Become an active member of polycount, build relationships with talented artists that you respect and/or admire. So just stay in your basement like a hermit. We evolve as a group and technology evolves quickly. Participate to contest, start to get some visibility, take a look at the show-off threads, give feedback to people, etc. It's a really small industry.
honestly, this is so full of horrible advices, i don't even know where to start.
How long have you been working as a character artist in the industry i wonder ? From what i could gather on linkedin, you have zero experience.
Stop giving advice for fields you have no clue about, please.
You even don't need any advanced traditional art skills with a soft like zbrush. You probably will be just recreating the concepts of other person.
All this makes the work of character artist not that unique. Often characters looks like siblings from one game to another. Same faces, same style, same big boots, boobs and huge swords.
As a result companies would easily find an other person for your position.
An environment art is often completely different story, it's extremely challenging, engine and shaders specific , brain storming , pazzling, subtle nuances and good taste driven. And it's what people see on 90% of their screen all the time. I know very few good environment artists who are able to do something within a given engine limitations, not just nice pictures in portfolio. So they have better chances to stay non-replaceable.
Keep in mind that all this is just an opinion of environment artist currently who moved on that years ago.
While reading your post, it really doesn't sound like anything I'd expect coming out of someone who is an experienced character artist. Because it doesn't make sense.
Regardless of the area, to be one of the best in the industry is not easy and requires tremendous amount of artistic skill. I can't think of a master character artist who can't work at similar levels in traditional art.
If you want to be one of the best, you're going to need advanced art skills, this translates well to "traditional art skills". Knowing how to paint, knowing how to sculpt etc... Zbrush is not going to make amazing looking art without the necessary skill. It's just a tool.
To make amazing looking characters requires all of the same challenges you listed for environment art. I don't think one is easier than the other. Your reference point is lacking. Compare an artist who is creating a character for a game like Overwatch (Blizzard). That is just as challenging as any beautiful environment. They all have their own unique challenges, to say one is always easier than the other just doesn't make any sense.
Okay I think I'll do it this way:
I'll continue to learn the fundamentals of drawing but not the anatomy, gesture, etc...
I'll focus on drawing for a while, but mainly on modelling in Max in the objectiv of getting a job Asap.
And when I'll get a job, I'll slowly climb the ladder by learning on my side.
Is that a good way ? Do you think it's a possible scenario?
EDIT: The fact is, If I find a job, i'll be very unskilled to model any character or creature because of my lack of anatomy. I would be simply a 3D Modeller.
While reading your post, it really doesn't sound like anything I'd expect coming out of someone who is an experienced character artist. Because it doesn't make sense.
Regardless of the area, to be one of the best in the industry is not easy and requires tremendous amount of artistic skill. I can't think of a master character artist who can't work at similar levels in traditional art.
If you want to be one of the best, you're going to need advanced art skills, this translates well to "traditional art skills". Knowing how to paint, knowing how to sculpt etc... Zbrush is not going to make amazing looking art without the necessary skill. It's just a tool.
To make amazing looking characters requires all of the same challenges you listed for environment art. I don't think one is easier than the other. Your reference point is lacking. Compare an artist who is creating a character for a game like Overwatch (Blizzard). That is just as challenging as any beautiful environment. They all have their own unique challenges, to say one is always easier than the other just doesn't make any sense.
I am sure being the best in something is always a challenge, whatever it is.
I am really don't want to sound as someone prising his own current field over the work of others. If it sounds that way it's just nothing more than my personal experience and what I saw around.
I do saw people who hardly knew how to take a pencil but still doing fantastic character work in Zbrush. Still you are definitely right, you would probably never find it easy to be the best out of best.
Question is why. To put a super detailed up to microbes level character in your portfolio while you would never do so in your real pipeline based job where time price is more important.
To compete in the field where hundreds of people do more or less the same and where animation is probably more important part then your craftsmanship.
The character work always seems me an art of possible where you can do what's possible with Zbrush. While games environments I would call art of impossible where everything is restricted, every step have two sides and balance and taste are everything.
honestly I am in no position to comment because im still not very good...
but I think you are over thinking this, the fundamentals of drawing are anatomy, gesture, etc. The fundamentals of sculpting (digital or tradional..its still sculpting..) are anatomy, gesture, etc.
I could add correct me if I'm wrong at each line, it would be great if the pros could answer you, but thx for giving your opinion. How about you ''start''?
''From what i could gather on linkedin, you have zero experience.''
And whoever doesn't have a LinkedIn account probably doesn't know anything about making game characters, right? Oh wait... :shifty:
You telling him how to become a character artist, is like me telling someone else how to become a lawyer.
You have no experience in this field, but maybe i missed some info, possible you are working as a professional character artist since 2012. Your portfolio and linkedin tell otherwise. Sorry if i am wrong with my assumptions.
So how much experience do you have, as a character artist, in production?
You always put such strong advices out there and i have yet to see the foundation of all this, but maybe thats just me.
Anyways, even if. I work with so many character artists, freelancers and onsite people, small and huge productions. I can tell you classical 3d apps (you mentioned 3dsmax) are still a hell lot more in use by character artsis, than the unreal material editor.
And for much more than a bit of retopo and a little here and there. I would consider Unreal material editor a plus (at best), while knowing Maya or Max, or better both is still pretty much a must.
Even in very unreal centric productions, most character artists will not touch the materials at all. The principal or leads maybe, setting up the master materials.
Now to zbrush, don't get me wrong, Zbrush is strong, and in some cases the biggest part in the character pipeline, but only in some.
But the chances you work only in zbrush on a project are so small, it needs a whole different level of expertise to do just the sculpting. Its very unlikely in games. In film it happens more often, and maybe games will pick up with this, but atm most character artists will need to know how to go from initial concept to final ingame asset, and this always, always leads through one of the big 3dapps. Those who do sculpt exclusively, are usually ones with a solid classical sculpting background, in my experience.
But as said, it's super rare.
I agree on the become a member of the community part, participate, but how does this mean to become a hermit? What this industry needs is teamplayers, not loners who will only work on their own. you will work with concepters, artdirectors, colleagues in your department, riggers, animators, maybe texture and shadingfolks. tons and tons of people, don't become a hermit.
@paquette, i think this sounds very doable. I will not talk much about the artistic side of the job, i think others did already very well with this.
Unless you go indie, you will most likely not start as a character artist. But if thats your goal, keep pushing in your freetime, people in your company will notice and you might get a chance. The smaller the production, the more likely i would say. Once you get better people will see, just don't hide yourself, participate.
Learning a modelling app is not a bad idea, you will use those a lot, no matter what department. Just don't forget about sculpting, it is important and will only become a stronger part in the industry.
How you learn anatomy, to me isn't that important. Drawing will be the most direct and transfer the easiest to another medium, but lets be honest. I am by no means any good with the pencil, most of the knowledge i have, i learned in 3d, and even after almost 15 years, there is still a lot to study.
Personally I think, you could put the medium in the same category as your software, any you know is a plus, but anatomy is indepent of the medium you use to learn it.
But as a character artist you will definitely need it.
Either way push your skills, you are competing with many people, even for entry level positions. Getting a job NOW, without a solid base is unlikely.
before this thread devolves any further I would second justin. Pior is a beast, listen to him
Its also worth noting that the people advocating traditional art skills are pro character artists, and the people that are against it, afaik aren't. (if you dont have a folio link I aint going to go stalking you )
Get your head down and learn a modelling package and a sculpting package and a texturing package, when you are sick of looking at a computer screen but want to be productive bust out the clay or get your sketchbook....as long as you are creating something, even if its just mistakes to learn from, then you are moving in the right direction.
I wish you the best, because character art is definitely a challenging and satisfying role in this industry. It is a good plan imo, break in as quick as possible because that is when you get access to experience and knowledge from coworkers, that is when the real learning begins. And thats why you should respect your coworkers. Sure, your first job might not be character modeling, you will have the luxury of keeping that as a hobby until someone looks at your work and will want to pay you for your characters.
Just keep working hard, motivated and disciplined. Thats all we can really do. Do our best and hope for our wishes to come true... Best of luck and keep that drive, it will get you where you want!
I don't know how much my opinion counts compared to someone like Pior but I've been doing character art going on 9 years and I think traditional art is the basis of any good 3d artist. You see a lot of people getting into game art that have no traditional art background and think it's easy to do simply because it's "computer" art and they know "computers." In fact, in art school, there was a large group of very technical artists that just didn't have an innate ability for art and you could see it in their 3d modeling. Sure they could model but nothing was proportioned correctly, or posed properly, or textured with proper color use. All of this is rooted in traditional art IMO. Does this mean that if you don't have a traditional art background that you can't do character art successfully? Of course not! It's just a good way to tell if someone has the base skills to move onto the next level and succeed. I think saying that you should ignore basic traditional art skills and only focus on digital media is a HUGE MISTAKE. But, again, what do I know...or any of these super talented artists saying the same thing...
these are useful and important tools to learn and understand, i wish i'd taken the time to do it! one of the biggest things for me is that with traditional medium there really is no "undo", you have to learn to be bold and confident, you have to learn how to apply shape and form properly otherwise you risk having to start over completely. you have to learn gesture and you get the opportunity to truly understand "space". the space an object is contained within, these are things that are really difficult to gauge in zbrush particularly but in other applications too.
nothing helps your brain process information more than using as many senses as you can at the same time, too. it sounds weird but even the smell of clay can help you remember a sculpting lesson... but more importantly, unlike sitting at your pc looking at an area of your screen and using your tablet, you're using your hands, your fingers, your fingertips, and more than just looking at what you're working on, you're looking at the space around it, you're moving around it, seeing it compared to other things. these are all things that help your brain process information better.
Tidal Blast: i understand your need to go on the defensive, Neox is german and so his criticism is efficient and deadly. But he's also correct. Outside of your university course you have no experience, it's evident in your artwork as much as it's evident in what you're saying. give it a year or two and i hope you come back to re-read this thread, i promise you'll think differently.
traditional arts can be referred to art fundamentals which have nothing to do with programs, shortcuts, tools or any other technical skills. Not that they are not related at all but the technical side is there to serve the art, and not the other way around.
art fundamentals are: lines, shapes, values, colors, space, lighting and texture.
Mastering those in time will help to reach the goal of making character art.
you don't need a computer to improve in any of those, in fact I would strongly suggest those who experience lack of motivation to just switch up the medium, e.g go paint ouside, it is a great way to improve your skill without computer headaches (lack of RAM and max crashes :P )
To me, traditional art can include traditional mediums but also traditional practice. Traditional medium being what you would expect, pencil, paper, clay, paints, etc. Traditional practice to me is sculpting, drawing, life-drawing, painting etc. These are essential to all artists IMO. The more you have dabbled in these traditional forms, the better prepared you will be when you tackle them in a digital medium.
Some great advice in this thread from industry vets. I would just like to add that you should absolutely pursue traditional art skills, not only because they are crucially important to being a great character artist, but also because drawing, painting, and sculpting are incredibly fun! I feel lucky to be working in a time when we have access to amazingly sophisticated creative tools, but I still find that I get the most satisfaction from scribbling in a sketchbook.
More like I don't have the time I had all these 3 past years. If you have a thesis to write and only have a half semester to do it... you kinda write it
I am still on the character modelling but... simply don't have the time to do it all day like I did these past years. Not to mention that now I "have to" earn my life.
It is fine mate, don't sweat it. I'll make a come back when I have the chance.
By the way I see that Neox is " lettin' 'em 'ave it" again... Naah I am just kiddin' . I know he is doing it for the sake of that mate. He has a direct approach that is all.
In fact once you get used to it it feels quite good
I am new artist, never done any kind of art, I started to sculpt "full-time"(I mean every day at least two hours) in August last year and it was going slow to the point I took some online courses(Gnomon School). That allowed me to compare my work with others, on Skype, live and get feedback from amazing artists(Scott Spencer), so if you have the means, that is one of the things that I'd recommend. But make sure you're not signing up for one of those pre-recorded courses.
When it goes to sculpting in clay, like someone mentioned, Grassetti said somewhere that he started using Zbrush and sculpt traditional at the same time, so maybe that is the reason, he is who he is right now - outstanding character artist.
The same thing was also mentioned by Scott Spencer during a course, he encouraged us to try some traditional sculpting, because nothing will teach us how the clay works better than that. So, once again, if you have the means, I'd say go for it!
That is purely newbie-to-newbie advice. Good luck on your path and let us both be one of those 800 in future
Thanks guys to have made this tread so meaningful, I think it's going to help other people also!
If I ever have other question, I'll post them right here!
I am new artist, never done any kind of art, I started to sculpt "full-time"(I mean every day at least two hours) in August last year and it was going slow to the point I took some online courses(Gnomon School). That allowed me to compare my work with others, on Skype, live and get feedback from amazing artists(Scott Spencer), so if you have the means, that is one of the things that I'd recommend. But make sure you're not signing up for one of those pre-recorded courses.
When it goes to sculpting in clay, like someone mentioned, Grassetti said somewhere that he started using Zbrush and sculpt traditional at the same time, so maybe that is the reason, he is who he is right now - outstanding character artist.
The same thing was also mentioned by Scott Spencer during a course, he encouraged us to try some traditional sculpting, because nothing will teach us how the clay works better than that. So, once again, if you have the means, I'd say go for it!
That is purely newbie-to-newbie advice. Good luck on your path and let us both be one of those 800 in future
This is along the lines of being taught color theory through Photoshop vs actual paint.
Learning how actual light affects actual paint and how those paints mix together is invaluable. Only learning how to do it digitally will never be the same since light works totally different through the monitor.
Replies
But hey at least it doesn't necessarily have to take *that* long either - it's just like everything else, everybody follows their own unique road with shortcuts, detours and mistakes ...
One thing for sure, progressing in a field like this is easier and smoother when done out of personal pleasure rather than under pressure. Man, doing Quake3 models sure was a blast !
More like I don't have the time I had all these 3 past years. If you have a thesis to write and only have a half semester to do it... you kinda write it
I am still on the character modelling but... simply don't have the time to do it all day like I did these past years. Not to mention that now I "have to" earn my life.
Soooo... you decide ?
honestly, this is so full of horrible advices, i don't even know where to start.
How long have you been working as a character artist in the industry i wonder ? From what i could gather on linkedin, you have zero experience.
Stop giving advice for fields you have no clue about, please.
While reading your post, it really doesn't sound like anything I'd expect coming out of someone who is an experienced character artist. Because it doesn't make sense.
Regardless of the area, to be one of the best in the industry is not easy and requires tremendous amount of artistic skill. I can't think of a master character artist who can't work at similar levels in traditional art.
If you want to be one of the best, you're going to need advanced art skills, this translates well to "traditional art skills". Knowing how to paint, knowing how to sculpt etc... Zbrush is not going to make amazing looking art without the necessary skill. It's just a tool.
To make amazing looking characters requires all of the same challenges you listed for environment art. I don't think one is easier than the other. Your reference point is lacking. Compare an artist who is creating a character for a game like Overwatch (Blizzard). That is just as challenging as any beautiful environment. They all have their own unique challenges, to say one is always easier than the other just doesn't make any sense.
I'll continue to learn the fundamentals of drawing but not the anatomy, gesture, etc...
I'll focus on drawing for a while, but mainly on modelling in Max in the objectiv of getting a job Asap.
And when I'll get a job, I'll slowly climb the ladder by learning on my side.
Is that a good way ? Do you think it's a possible scenario?
EDIT: The fact is, If I find a job, i'll be very unskilled to model any character or creature because of my lack of anatomy. I would be simply a 3D Modeller.
I am sure being the best in something is always a challenge, whatever it is.
I am really don't want to sound as someone prising his own current field over the work of others. If it sounds that way it's just nothing more than my personal experience and what I saw around.
I do saw people who hardly knew how to take a pencil but still doing fantastic character work in Zbrush. Still you are definitely right, you would probably never find it easy to be the best out of best.
Question is why. To put a super detailed up to microbes level character in your portfolio while you would never do so in your real pipeline based job where time price is more important.
To compete in the field where hundreds of people do more or less the same and where animation is probably more important part then your craftsmanship.
The character work always seems me an art of possible where you can do what's possible with Zbrush. While games environments I would call art of impossible where everything is restricted, every step have two sides and balance and taste are everything.
honestly I am in no position to comment because im still not very good...
but I think you are over thinking this, the fundamentals of drawing are anatomy, gesture, etc. The fundamentals of sculpting (digital or tradional..its still sculpting..) are anatomy, gesture, etc.
Learn the art fundamentals and learn the tools.
You telling him how to become a character artist, is like me telling someone else how to become a lawyer.
You have no experience in this field, but maybe i missed some info, possible you are working as a professional character artist since 2012. Your portfolio and linkedin tell otherwise. Sorry if i am wrong with my assumptions.
So how much experience do you have, as a character artist, in production?
You always put such strong advices out there and i have yet to see the foundation of all this, but maybe thats just me.
Anyways, even if. I work with so many character artists, freelancers and onsite people, small and huge productions. I can tell you classical 3d apps (you mentioned 3dsmax) are still a hell lot more in use by character artsis, than the unreal material editor.
And for much more than a bit of retopo and a little here and there. I would consider Unreal material editor a plus (at best), while knowing Maya or Max, or better both is still pretty much a must.
Even in very unreal centric productions, most character artists will not touch the materials at all. The principal or leads maybe, setting up the master materials.
Now to zbrush, don't get me wrong, Zbrush is strong, and in some cases the biggest part in the character pipeline, but only in some.
But the chances you work only in zbrush on a project are so small, it needs a whole different level of expertise to do just the sculpting. Its very unlikely in games. In film it happens more often, and maybe games will pick up with this, but atm most character artists will need to know how to go from initial concept to final ingame asset, and this always, always leads through one of the big 3dapps. Those who do sculpt exclusively, are usually ones with a solid classical sculpting background, in my experience.
But as said, it's super rare.
I agree on the become a member of the community part, participate, but how does this mean to become a hermit? What this industry needs is teamplayers, not loners who will only work on their own. you will work with concepters, artdirectors, colleagues in your department, riggers, animators, maybe texture and shadingfolks. tons and tons of people, don't become a hermit.
@paquette, i think this sounds very doable. I will not talk much about the artistic side of the job, i think others did already very well with this.
Unless you go indie, you will most likely not start as a character artist. But if thats your goal, keep pushing in your freetime, people in your company will notice and you might get a chance. The smaller the production, the more likely i would say. Once you get better people will see, just don't hide yourself, participate.
Learning a modelling app is not a bad idea, you will use those a lot, no matter what department. Just don't forget about sculpting, it is important and will only become a stronger part in the industry.
How you learn anatomy, to me isn't that important. Drawing will be the most direct and transfer the easiest to another medium, but lets be honest. I am by no means any good with the pencil, most of the knowledge i have, i learned in 3d, and even after almost 15 years, there is still a lot to study.
Personally I think, you could put the medium in the same category as your software, any you know is a plus, but anatomy is indepent of the medium you use to learn it.
But as a character artist you will definitely need it.
Either way push your skills, you are competing with many people, even for entry level positions. Getting a job NOW, without a solid base is unlikely.
before this thread devolves any further I would second justin. Pior is a beast, listen to him
Its also worth noting that the people advocating traditional art skills are pro character artists, and the people that are against it, afaik aren't. (if you dont have a folio link I aint going to go stalking you
Get your head down and learn a modelling package and a sculpting package and a texturing package, when you are sick of looking at a computer screen but want to be productive bust out the clay or get your sketchbook....as long as you are creating something, even if its just mistakes to learn from, then you are moving in the right direction.
I was a traditional artist and I can tell you it was a lot easier for me to transition to digital because of it.
Just keep working hard, motivated and disciplined. Thats all we can really do. Do our best and hope for our wishes to come true... Best of luck and keep that drive, it will get you where you want!
real clay, pencil and paper etc.
these are useful and important tools to learn and understand, i wish i'd taken the time to do it! one of the biggest things for me is that with traditional medium there really is no "undo", you have to learn to be bold and confident, you have to learn how to apply shape and form properly otherwise you risk having to start over completely. you have to learn gesture and you get the opportunity to truly understand "space". the space an object is contained within, these are things that are really difficult to gauge in zbrush particularly but in other applications too.
nothing helps your brain process information more than using as many senses as you can at the same time, too. it sounds weird but even the smell of clay can help you remember a sculpting lesson... but more importantly, unlike sitting at your pc looking at an area of your screen and using your tablet, you're using your hands, your fingers, your fingertips, and more than just looking at what you're working on, you're looking at the space around it, you're moving around it, seeing it compared to other things. these are all things that help your brain process information better.
Tidal Blast: i understand your need to go on the defensive, Neox is german and so his criticism is efficient and deadly. But he's also correct. Outside of your university course you have no experience, it's evident in your artwork as much as it's evident in what you're saying. give it a year or two and i hope you come back to re-read this thread, i promise you'll think differently.
art fundamentals are: lines, shapes, values, colors, space, lighting and texture.
Mastering those in time will help to reach the goal of making character art.
you don't need a computer to improve in any of those, in fact I would strongly suggest those who experience lack of motivation to just switch up the medium, e.g go paint ouside, it is a great way to improve your skill without computer headaches (lack of RAM and max crashes :P )
Al'right sorry I misunderstood
It is fine mate, don't sweat it.
By the way I see that Neox is " lettin' 'em 'ave it" again... Naah I am just kiddin' .
In fact once you get used to it it feels quite good
I am new artist, never done any kind of art, I started to sculpt "full-time"(I mean every day at least two hours) in August last year and it was going slow to the point I took some online courses(Gnomon School). That allowed me to compare my work with others, on Skype, live and get feedback from amazing artists(Scott Spencer), so if you have the means, that is one of the things that I'd recommend. But make sure you're not signing up for one of those pre-recorded courses.
When it goes to sculpting in clay, like someone mentioned, Grassetti said somewhere that he started using Zbrush and sculpt traditional at the same time, so maybe that is the reason, he is who he is right now - outstanding character artist.
The same thing was also mentioned by Scott Spencer during a course, he encouraged us to try some traditional sculpting, because nothing will teach us how the clay works better than that. So, once again, if you have the means, I'd say go for it!
That is purely newbie-to-newbie advice. Good luck on your path and let us both be one of those 800 in future
If I ever have other question, I'll post them right here!
Have a great day everyone, make good art!
This is along the lines of being taught color theory through Photoshop vs actual paint.
Learning how actual light affects actual paint and how those paints mix together is invaluable. Only learning how to do it digitally will never be the same since light works totally different through the monitor.