The most astounding fact [MISLEADING TITLE -mods]
polycounter lvl 6
We can land a probe on a comet:
but we can't feed our own species:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcdtVD8X1-A
:poly131:
but we can't feed our own species:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcdtVD8X1-A
:poly131:
Replies
I would like to assert that our scientific minds as a whole desire to put more effort to space exploration than feeding a portion of the species.
We need Star Ships... like yesterday!
[ame="
In principle I can't argue with you. In practice, what would you suggest as a viable project, and what is the cost benefit analysis?
We have more than enough food to go around, its just a matter of getting it distributed to the people who actually need it. We throw away tons of food that doesn't look right, or isn't perfectly fresh because it wont sell. If all that food was shipped to Africa and given out, we could probably do a good job at stopping world hunger.
If we invested trillions in feeding everyone instead of war, the world would be a better place. But war benefits the rich, feeding the poor doesn't.
If you really just have to pick a single bad guy in our spending priorities, maybe pick a smarter target, like the military, or the influence of corporate money on politics. Those two things alone cost us orders of magnitude more, and deliver orders of magnitude less in terms of benefiting humanity.
Space exploration is a good thing, it's never bad thing to seek out and explore new things, who knows in how many ways that can help humankind. Like, when that comet comes to kill us all, you probably want to have way to defend it.
Now why we spend so much money for fighting each other, for wars, for weapons (i mean just look at the budget some countries spend), now that's a little different i think. But space exploration is really not making kids starve....
I don't want to sound like an ass, but i always find it funny how people who bitch about space exploration, probably uses a lot of stuff that was made at least partially thanks to the space exploration, every day without even knowing it....
IIRC, Tyson once said, if you take a usa dollar coin, and the depth of it represent usa military spendings, and wanted to compare NASA research in that, you wouldn't even go past the ink (or whatever it is) through that coin (as in, nasa's budget was like 0.5% of the miliary, iirc). That's kind saying something i think.
//edited
Eh just look at the pic:
Though i kinda wonder if all of us jumped on the OP a bit too fast, not sure if he was actually saying that science is responsible of that. :P
But if were doing broad blanket statements here is one...
The poorest countries are also the countries with the highest birth rates per person. If you can't sustain yourself with food and shelter why should I feel bad when you bring 4 to 6 more children into the world and complain how they have nothing?
Over population is a real thing and a big problem. Just because you CAN have children doesn't mean you should. Especially when you cannot provide for them. This issue isnt limited to third world countries as its an issue in the States as well, just not to the epic proportions it is in other parts of the world.
I'm pretty sure we could use these sorts of technology to facilitate transports of food and ressources accross the globe.
Not something that can be talked about in a random art forum, let alone using pictures alone.
But OK, sure, whatever, I guess the person over at NASA who is charge of wiring the dry-run circuits, they are part of a billion money laundry service for the US Goverment, it's not like space programs constitute less then 1% of the GDP cost, as well the private sector.
anyway you can check out amazing updates for their photos here
https://www.flickr.com/photos/europeanspaceagency/15560572326/in/set-72157638315605535/
love it, instant desktop background
It's not just all about shooting a rocket into space and look at pretty stars. :P
EDIT: Add a link with a bit more info: http://kearth101.cbslocal.com/2011/07/21/list-stuff-we-use-everyday-that-was-invented-from-the-space-program/
On the flip side, if you think about why people used to have so many children, it's mostly because not all of them would survive.
Very true, not to mention if you go back further in history.... in tribal areas you want your group to be larger then others so the bigger your families are the more warriors you have.
Maybe it's not purely a science problem as much as it is political and economic? There is plenty of food, but getting it to people who need it, without completely destroying what domestic agriculture there is, and without the food being used as a weapon in local power struggles is a very big challenge. Perhaps it's an even bigger challenge than landing a probe on a comet millions of miles away.
At least, I know this happened with supplying clean water to villages over there. They'd have the water for some time, but then a convoy of armed dudes would roll through and just take it.
It's stupid to even focus on space exploration here. Just creates some false dichotomy. Space and feeding the hungry couldn't be more different. As stated above, far higher amounts of money are put into defense.
I simply have to ask you, where do you think the money goes once it is spent? It doesn't just dissapear into thin air.
No it goes into the pockets of hard working engineers and scientists, and it goes to all the businesses supplying raw materials and goods. It goes to the super markets and shops to feed those engineers and scientists. India getting a space program is one of the best things that has happened in India for a very long time. Well paid jobs that encourage science and technology and pour money into local communities instead of into the pockets of corrupt politicians and business men. It is also widely reported to be the most efficient branch of the Indian govt. It gives the people a reason to dream, and it gives people hope and the resources to make it out of the slums. A successful space program through history has always benefited economies more than equal investment into almost any other area.
I wish Africa had a space program as well. It would do a a fucking lot more than religious fanatics converting people under the guise of "feeding the poor".
Stealth Banana! Fuck yes! I was thinking of this read I saw the Op's post.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOMDMWzhO9k
Dont get me wrong I have a firm belief that science is the only way forward for humans and I am a big fan of people like deGrasse and krauss but major achievements in space should and are possible to achieve closer to home, the bureaucracy of the western world keeps us from evolving together and that will be our downfall, that should be a warning to all of us but we are far to busy to even notice it. Where do all the resources go once they are depleted ? they actually do disappear into thin air and money cant buy them back.
Remember folks food for though should not be turned into fuel for hatred no matter how it is presented because as I have often noticed it is the hard debates that get people thinking / debating and when people are thinking they are actually hard to pin down and manipulate.
pete :poly121:
Seems kind limited and narrow. Perhaps a dangerous world view in the right hands.
Look, at some point, when i was kid, my family was so poor we didn't even have money for bread. On on the other hand, that never stopped me from like space exploration and anything related to that. In fact, i was totally nut about those things, and even am nowdays.
So i think i have atlest SOME understanding on both subjects, hunger and space exploration. And i still say, if you think space exploration is guilty for world hunger, you have it wrong man.
Did you see that chard i provided you? Do you see char, where it shows, that budget for entire history that nasa exists, meaning, all the money that ever went into nasa in it's history, is still not even for one yearly budget spending on USA military. And that's just talking about USA.
So clearly, If you already must blame something, atleast take a look where most of the money is spent. NASA REALLY isn't your problem at all here.
And iirc, i think Tyson once said, for every dollar that is put into space exploration in nasa, usa gets 3 dollar in return...or something like that. IF anything it seems to be doing good, not bad.
But really, it's a little more complicated subject than that. And lastly, do you know how many poor kids across the world would you feed, if you didn't watch TV, if you didn't ever buy any game, didn't buy any computer, any toy, any mobile phone etc. With your logic, i don't know how you can live with yourself if you assume that for each of mobile phone you buy, countless people die from hunger...and you could help them, but you refused too.
And one last thing, one does wonder if you are such a humanitarian and wants to help people, why do you choose to work in field, that is all about luxury, meaning, for somewhat rich people, at least enough to buy expensive computers only to play some computer games, that is just worsening situation, if i go by your logic?
Nothing personal, just showing why i think your logic is bad....
If you really want to start debate that would in any way help the situation, it's better to ask, how do we think we can help the situation, not just blaming things randomly like that....
http://www.feedthechildren.org/
http://thewaterproject.org/
http://waterwellsforafrica.org/
http://www.backpackfarm.com/
http://www.acfs.org.za/
http://food4africa.org/
http://www.worldbank.org/
http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/
and on and on and on...
Personally I think we humans are capable of working on both.
There is a lot of overlap when figuring out how to feed people with limited resources in space and feed people on earth with limited resources. Also delivering methods like what was developed for the Mars rover can help deliver supplies and aid to remote disaster areas.
Governments by nature are fairly myopic and self centered, they aren't likely to focus on the problems of people outside their borders unless it has some kind of affect within their borders. But that shouldn't stop you from joining some of the people who are doing these things without waiting for their government to wake up.
Well those same places have lack of education, birth control, and many times a Patriarchal society. They also as stated if they are a rural farming society need the children to help with the farming. There is also the social ideal in some of them of your children taking care of you in your old age, so more kids = a better chance for good retirement.
Might mention with the education, the opposite end would be religious beliefs that press for more children.
The core arguments you need to address being.
I want hard clear rebuttals to these.
this is the most ingorant thing ive seen in a while.
we are obligated to help them, solely because we constatly steal their natural resources. which in turn creates poverty. which causes wars. and starvation. and stops the prevention of famine like aids and ebola.
does people serously think that the african people are solely responsible for this themselves?
when you see red cross ad, of a starving person somewhere in africa, you think; "yeah you should have thought of that before your parents brought you into this world?"
if so, we are further from the solution than i thought.
heres a thing. none of us, me, you, the white people of the western world, DESERVES our current living standard. we simply had luck, to be born into the minority that oppresses the majority. our priviliges wasnt given to us by earlier generations, it was STOLEN.
so please, try to understand that we live in a global world, and most of the things happening, if not all, should be the concern to all of us. all other mindsets are backwards and lead to conflict.
In other words, maybe they're poor because of my country's oppression and theft of resources or whatever it might be. And you can put that on me if you'd like, sure. However, if you have nothing and don't foresee having anything in the future ... having kids you can't feed seems like a logical failure. However, there are religious and societal pressures at play as noted earlier.
Blah, it's complicated...
We get to choose who we care about, I hate to say it. If you want to live with guilt for your ancestors be my guest, but I refuse to take part in that guilt. Now I'm not saying that we shouldn't help, in fact that isn't what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying this wearing your heart on your sleeve facebook activism is not the answer.
And besides if you actually do the research you will realize how little charity has helped in Africa. I'm about to say something super controversial, but none-the less as far as i can tell is true.
The number one best thing we could do for Africa is set up a manufacturing industry in Africa employing the people and giving them jobs. You need to make africa a functioning economy, not a calf suckling on the tit of the developed world for the rest of time.
http://www.ted.com/talks/leslie_t_chang_the_voices_of_china_s_workers?language=en#
in under developed countries, there is usually no social safety net. like wellfare, statfunded pension, minimum wage, or free healthcare. so, if you want to be taken care of when you are old, or cant work for other reasons, the family is the only thing you can count on. if you have tons of children, you have way better chances of living the last part of your life in somewhat comfort.
this is supported by the fact, that if you raise the standard of living in any country, the birthrate goes down. in sweden its down so far, we die more than we give birth.
btw, if anybody want me to support these facts with sources, i will do
EDIT; was a response to warren
"Now I'm not saying that we shouldn't help, in fact that isn't what I'm saying at all"
"Just because people are popping out babies without the ability to support them doesn't mean we are obligated to help them."
those two sentences dont really give of the same vibe.
for the rest of the stuff, like charity isnt working, and that improving the industry trough manufactories would be more viable, i agree. but then we are talking about HOW TO help. which is good. what bothers me is when people asking why we SHOULD help. that we live in excess, and others in dispair, should be reason enough.
oh wait
"that we live in excess, and others in dispair, should be reason enough."
I want to know what the limits of that are? If there was a dying alien race on mars, are we obligated to help them because they exist? Is your compassion exclusive to humans? I can't think of a logical reason for why I am obligated to help these people.
Instead if you feel compassion, let it be compassion. Don't try and rope others into this obligation speak.
the limits is obviously to what extent we can. would we surive if we consumed less, and gave that money and resources to the more needing? yes. then we should. we HAVE enough recources to feed eveyone. its just a matter of distributing them right.
i dont think its very controversial to say that we can consume less. it doesnt mean you have to live like a monk in a monestary, without worldy posessions, but when you are considering to bying your secound car, or buy clothes eveyday just cause you like shopping, or the new ihpone when your old one is working perfectly, i think you are doing excessive consuming, and that money would be better spent somewhere else, on someone else.
edit: the reason to do this, is simply that the world would be a better place.
Obvious trolling aside that gallery is pretty freaking sweet.
I am a bit disappointed on how small indirect lighting in outerspace no matter how much we crank up the exposure
probably this is why most space game and movie use exaggerated nebula or planetary light bounces
(although its wrong saying we fail to feed our species. we acomplish it, given the right proportions)