I do worry a little bit that images on the thread page will widen the feedback gap that already exists.
Played out like that at zbrushcentral, in my opinion, the new zbsee led to less constructive crits, and more just people leaving "awesome" type comments, probably because it was super easy to see what kind of thread (beginner, learning, advanced) you were going into.
Just a thought. I like the pimping title change and addition of 'critique'.
Pimping and Previews was never a terribly clear title. Little point clinging to the past if you can make things simpler for the newbies and stop them from posting in the wrong parts of the forum. If it makes things a little friendlier for women here, so much the better.
While you're noodling with the front page, you've got a typo in the Sketchbook forum description that you might as well fix up:
"Similar to the P&P forum, each thread in DS is for a single artist to post any artwork that the choose. This is used to show a progression of projects and skills or for general art dumping without regret, worry, or intent. Please, one Sketchbook per artist."
In contrast to some of you, i love the new zbrushcentral look. I don't need to click and see all the threads, just the interesting ones. Right now we have several threads with very nice works that are being ignored due to a poor title.
If you are going to "showcase", something like Zbrushcentral is pretty cool.
Well, the new Zbrushcentral main forum look sure has its strengths ; if anything, I like the fact that it pushes users to work hard on a nice main picture to use as a thread thumbnail. And of course it makes it much easier for the user to identify the nature of a thread quickly.
However ... I feel like the way they used a waterflow layout is a bit of a mess, and they are also trying to cram waaaaay too much information in the little space they have. Still, an interesting experiment.
The word 'pimping' itself is in no way misogynistic and ultimately it comes down to the context of its use.
I'm sorry, but your answer could not be correct as typed. Please try your point again.
In a slightly more serious response, that word hasn't severed from its origin yet. You can hang on to it while the sociolinguistic reality catches up if you'd like, but on the whole it makes people think of real pimps as well as whores/whoring (which also hasn't severed from its origin, so no crying context on that either). Those are guys who are beating the hell out of prostitutes and stealing their money on an ongoing basis in return for "protecting" them the same way the mafia "protects" businesses. My guess would be that you've never had to deal with actual pimps in any way, and that's why you don't see a problem with it. As MattQ86 already pointed out, actual pimps use violence, threats, lies, and often drug addiction to force people, frequently minors, in to having sex for money then giving that money to the pimp. It's not a particularly tasteful metaphor. I wasn't ever offended by it, but I'll never say that it's wrong for someone else to find it offensive.
The main reason I've lurked Polycount forever is the casual atmosphere and mutual respect of individuals as artists. By altering the title you're perpetuating the myth that women are so weak that even words themselves are victimising. That women are so easily offended and guided that the term "pimping" in and of itself is alienating. Glad to see the subject object dichotomy is still being perpetuated, now under the mascaraed of feminism; the abused become the abusers, ironic. Yay equality
You're citing an opinion article, and it's even one that doesn't support your point. That's talking about decrying words such as "complaining", not "pimping". See above if you're confused as to why "pimp" has a wholly different context and meaning. You're going to have a really hard time actually convincing most people that "pimp" and "whore" have no bearing on women and how welcome they feel in a particular venue on average. For the record, some people will always be bothered, some never will, and we're not talking about either of those subsets right now. Also, no one is saying "you can't say that," they're saying, "Perhaps some people might find this immature or offensive." You want to call it pimping and talk about pimping, go for it. Also, if you're still confused, (re)read that link dustinbrown gave you.
In my experience ZBrushcentral has never been a good place for feedback. It's a great place for top level artists to get exposure, but I've asked far too many questions on there that have gone completely ignored and posted too much work that's also been completely ignored to have any interest in returning to that community. It's fun to look at for five minutes while I'm having my morning coffee, but as a community it really sucks. From what I can tell it's 90% lurkers and fanboys.
Apologies, for going off topic.
When I was starting out I learned this quite quickly. I was mainly posting on Zbrushcentral and would get 0 comments or feedback... Then one day I posted on Polycount and couldn't believe how nice the community was... Polycount reminds me of taking art classes at community college, it's extremely diverse and people are usually quite open in sharing their feedback.
Good change and the reasons for it included. Around 2008-2009 I began joining several forums from CGtalk, game-artist, Polycount, ConceptArt, etc. I admittedly saw the old name and (without judgement) I first was like, "Where's the critique forum?" and then sort of thought, "Really?! LOL ... can't they at be least be a little more understanding that not everyone thinks that's funny to keep it off the name of the most commonly used place on the site? LOL SMH!?" :poly124:
It took me until this year to realize how great this place is, with all its vast knowledge. So I'd like to think that I'm a good example of why this change can benefit. And it is just a name, but the point is that this place is for anyone ... and it is! :thumbup:
...Our crime here is making Polycount accessible to anyone and everyone. This wasn't a knee-jerk reaction, but a long and calculated one we've wanted to do for a very long time, not just in the recent months.
Love this Adam. One more thing: There's a difference between judging + mud-slinging, versus simply not liking something. It's sad that we can't bring the subject of these matters up without people yelling about it. I never complained or made judgements on anyone here while the name didn't appeal to me, but the new name is, in fact, far more inclusive. Whats wrong with realizing some people don't relate to it and changing?
Good change and the reasons for it included. Around 2008-2009 I began joining several forums from CGtalk, game-artist, Polycount, ConceptArt, etc. I admittedly saw the old name and (without judgement) I first was like, "Where's the critique forum?" and then sort of thought, "Really?! LOL ... can't they at be least be a little more understanding that not everyone thinks that's funny to keep it off the name of the most commonly used place on the site? LOL SMH!?" :poly124:
It took me until this year to realize how great this place is, with all its vast knowledge. So I'd like to think that I'm a good example of why this change can benefit. And it is just a name, but the point is that this place is for anyone ... and it is! :thumbup:
Love this Adam. One more thing: There's a difference between judging + mud-slinging, versus simply not liking something. It's sad that we can't bring the subject of these matters up without people yelling about it. I never complained or made judgements on anyone here while the name didn't appeal to me, but the new name is, in fact, far more inclusive. Whats wrong with realizing some people don't relate to it and changing?
looks like you survived your heartattack from seeng the word "pimping" on the internet.
i dont know what to feel about the thumbnails suggestion. it worries me that it will support some kind of getting-as-many-views-as-possible competition with more and more spectacular thumbnails. just look at the cgsocietys top banners. its like 90% hot girls.
i want to focus on making good art, not something that looks best at a small thumbnail.
i can easily see how props and envirnemt would get short end of the stick compared to the women characters on this.
looks like you survived your heartattack from seeng the word "pimping" on the internet.
Admittedly its times like this I wish I had a magic "internet-comment-tone-reader" (why I usually don't comment on such discussions, but alas, I did this time). Either way, as I implied in my final statement, there was no heart attack but simply a reasonable having of a reaction, opinion, or preference for something else. This is of course followed by all kinds of art, posting art, critiquing art, asking for help on art, sharing art, liking art, disliking art, etc.
Admittedly its times like this I wish I had a magic "internet-comment-tone-reader" (why I usually don't comment on such discussions, but alas, I did this time). Either way, as I implied in my final statement, there was no heart attack but simply a reasonable having of a reaction, opinion, or preference for something else. This is of course followed by all kinds of art, posting art, critiquing art, asking for help on art, sharing art, liking art, disliking art, etc.
I don't have a tone reader, but I do have a reminder from the first page that may help you:
i dont know what to feel about the thumbnails suggestion. it worries me that it will support some kind of getting-as-many-views-as-possible competition with more and more spectacular thumbnails. just look at the cgsocietys top banners. its like 90% hot girls.
i want to focus on making good art, not something that looks best at a small thumbnail.
i can easily see how props and envirnemt would get short end of the stick compared to the women characters on this.
Maybe ... but we won't know until we try it out. I honestly doubt that the spirit of the PC community is going to change all of a sudden just because of a new layout, with said change giving everyone more visibility to everyone than before. I don't think that any thread will become less attractive because of that. And even a wip model can be presented nicely ! I am personally very impatient to see what can possibly happen
The PC banners are curated by hand, so I think there is nothing to worry about on that front either... Similarly, the PC forums do not display any ego-stroking stats (no "likes", no "thanks", no stars, no views count) which I think says a lot of good things about the vision carefully crafted by the team in charge.
Tbh when I first saw this change I thought it was to keep people from dumping their art into the "featured artists" section which they were doing from time to time...
If you're trying to make polycount more accessible then someone should come up with a solution to the sketchbook forum cause that place is nothing but noob bait, new artists go there all the time, start threads, then abandon polycount entirely because they get no attention or feedback.
this is about misogyny? now that is ridicilous.
don't get me wrong the new name is fine, but i really don't like the reason why you did that.
Misogyny is a strong word that has been thrown around a lot lately, I don't think anyone here (save a questionable few) are truly misogynistic. Most dudes around here are chill guys who maybe don't realize the meaning or implications of what they say and do can sometimes be a little off putting to some people, and might be unintentionally unwelcoming. I think it's good to try and be aware of this, and be sensitive about it (within reason).
And that's not a terrible offense. That's the sort of person I try to be, and for the most part that's the sort fc community we've always been. And we're getting better. No harm done in changing a title, or the reasons behind it.
Some people are treating the name change as a huge "tragedy", a "horrible drama". WTF?
Come on, come on, where's the harm?. I'm perplexed reading some comments.
I think the name change is quite good and very appropiate ("pimping" was not a serious term), and i still think that small thumbnails would help a lot. Art station is a good example of a great way to showcase works.
There are several Vbulletin forums that are not using the default old table style. We can see dynamic/liquid forums that can be easily readed in a smartphone.
@Blazier: Agreed. It just wasn't a serious or accurate term. Why it this an issue to get upset over?
@Iconplast: Thanks. I appreciate that. I'm sensitive so I'm torn between "I'm trying to be professional, I don't have time for insecure arguments, I have art to make and contacts to network with" and "I'm pretty sure this guys just threw a cheap shot at me for something I never said at all and after I tried carefully to avoid such a thing" Ironically I carefully worded my post to sound non-contentious (LOL :poly124:), never indicated that I was seriously upset or offended or even had any issue with the word "pimping" at all, only that I had 5 years ago for around 5 seconds gotten a cultural vibe that I didn't relate to (and never said anything) and went to game-artist.net instead. Edit:.
There are 20 Posts on the 3D art sections right now. So what if you doubled the height of each post and put a thumbnail on the left side of the thread text. Hmmm but that does mean a lot of wasted space between each thread title text. Maybe at the top of the board a toggle button to show thumbnails? I'm no good with clean web design!
@Blazier: Agreed. It just wasn't a serious or accurate term. Why it this an issue to get upset over?
@Iconplast: Thanks. I appreciate that. I'm sensitive so I'm torn between "I'm trying to be professional, I don't have time for insecure arguments, I have art to make and contacts to network with" and "I'm pretty sure this guys just threw a cheap shot at me for something I never said at all and after I tried carefully to avoid such a thing" Ironically I carefully worded my post to sound non-contentious (LOL :poly124:), never indicated that I was seriously upset or offended or even had any issue with the word "pimping" at all, only that I had 5 years ago for around 5 seconds gotten a cultural vibe that I didn't relate to (and never said anything) and went to game-artist.net instead. Edit:.
yes i did throw a cheap shot at you and you took the high road. so i just let it go.
about the whole thumbnail thing i have to say artstation is probably a bad example. 99% of all work that gets uploaded gets 20 minutes of facetime on the top of latest and is never seen again after that.
i agree about the thumbnails , it will make people check out of projects even before they checked them if the person doesnt have an appealing thumbnail.
I do worry a little bit that images on the thread page will widen the feedback gap that already exists.
Played out like that at zbrushcentral, in my opinion, the new zbsee led to less constructive crits, and more just people leaving "awesome" type comments, probably because it was super easy to see what kind of thread (beginner, learning, advanced) you were going into.
Agree 100%
The amount of times I've gone into a thread just curious about the name. Also ended up critiquing in threads I might not have bothered checking if there was a thumbnail.
Yeah, same, I've gone into threads with no knowledge of skill level, and after reading their commentary, decided to leave critique that they later found helpful.
thumbnails: bad for critique. May be useful for people who just want to see cool art for inspiration though. Although there's already the weekly recap for that.
Replies
Played out like that at zbrushcentral, in my opinion, the new zbsee led to less constructive crits, and more just people leaving "awesome" type comments, probably because it was super easy to see what kind of thread (beginner, learning, advanced) you were going into.
Just a thought. I like the pimping title change and addition of 'critique'.
While you're noodling with the front page, you've got a typo in the Sketchbook forum description that you might as well fix up:
If you are going to "showcase", something like Zbrushcentral is pretty cool.
However ... I feel like the way they used a waterflow layout is a bit of a mess, and they are also trying to cram waaaaay too much information in the little space they have. Still, an interesting experiment.
In a slightly more serious response, that word hasn't severed from its origin yet. You can hang on to it while the sociolinguistic reality catches up if you'd like, but on the whole it makes people think of real pimps as well as whores/whoring (which also hasn't severed from its origin, so no crying context on that either). Those are guys who are beating the hell out of prostitutes and stealing their money on an ongoing basis in return for "protecting" them the same way the mafia "protects" businesses. My guess would be that you've never had to deal with actual pimps in any way, and that's why you don't see a problem with it. As MattQ86 already pointed out, actual pimps use violence, threats, lies, and often drug addiction to force people, frequently minors, in to having sex for money then giving that money to the pimp. It's not a particularly tasteful metaphor. I wasn't ever offended by it, but I'll never say that it's wrong for someone else to find it offensive. You're citing an opinion article, and it's even one that doesn't support your point. That's talking about decrying words such as "complaining", not "pimping". See above if you're confused as to why "pimp" has a wholly different context and meaning. You're going to have a really hard time actually convincing most people that "pimp" and "whore" have no bearing on women and how welcome they feel in a particular venue on average. For the record, some people will always be bothered, some never will, and we're not talking about either of those subsets right now. Also, no one is saying "you can't say that," they're saying, "Perhaps some people might find this immature or offensive." You want to call it pimping and talk about pimping, go for it. Also, if you're still confused, (re)read that link dustinbrown gave you.
This now replaces "rouge/rogue" as my favorite makeup-related misspelling ever. (You're looking for "masquerade".)
When I was starting out I learned this quite quickly. I was mainly posting on Zbrushcentral and would get 0 comments or feedback... Then one day I posted on Polycount and couldn't believe how nice the community was... Polycount reminds me of taking art classes at community college, it's extremely diverse and people are usually quite open in sharing their feedback.
It took me until this year to realize how great this place is, with all its vast knowledge. So I'd like to think that I'm a good example of why this change can benefit. And it is just a name, but the point is that this place is for anyone ... and it is! :thumbup:
Love this Adam. One more thing: There's a difference between judging + mud-slinging, versus simply not liking something. It's sad that we can't bring the subject of these matters up without people yelling about it. I never complained or made judgements on anyone here while the name didn't appeal to me, but the new name is, in fact, far more inclusive. Whats wrong with realizing some people don't relate to it and changing?
Joking aside, the change makes more sense regardless of the reason.
looks like you survived your heartattack from seeng the word "pimping" on the internet.
i want to focus on making good art, not something that looks best at a small thumbnail.
i can easily see how props and envirnemt would get short end of the stick compared to the women characters on this.
Admittedly its times like this I wish I had a magic "internet-comment-tone-reader" (why I usually don't comment on such discussions, but alas, I did this time). Either way, as I implied in my final statement, there was no heart attack but simply a reasonable having of a reaction, opinion, or preference for something else. This is of course followed by all kinds of art, posting art, critiquing art, asking for help on art, sharing art, liking art, disliking art, etc.
Maybe ... but we won't know until we try it out. I honestly doubt that the spirit of the PC community is going to change all of a sudden just because of a new layout, with said change giving everyone more visibility to everyone than before. I don't think that any thread will become less attractive because of that. And even a wip model can be presented nicely ! I am personally very impatient to see what can possibly happen
The PC banners are curated by hand, so I think there is nothing to worry about on that front either... Similarly, the PC forums do not display any ego-stroking stats (no "likes", no "thanks", no stars, no views count) which I think says a lot of good things about the vision carefully crafted by the team in charge.
If you're trying to make polycount more accessible then someone should come up with a solution to the sketchbook forum cause that place is nothing but noob bait, new artists go there all the time, start threads, then abandon polycount entirely because they get no attention or feedback.
Misogyny is a strong word that has been thrown around a lot lately, I don't think anyone here (save a questionable few) are truly misogynistic. Most dudes around here are chill guys who maybe don't realize the meaning or implications of what they say and do can sometimes be a little off putting to some people, and might be unintentionally unwelcoming. I think it's good to try and be aware of this, and be sensitive about it (within reason).
And that's not a terrible offense. That's the sort of person I try to be, and for the most part that's the sort fc community we've always been. And we're getting better. No harm done in changing a title, or the reasons behind it.
Come on, come on, where's the harm?. I'm perplexed reading some comments.
I think the name change is quite good and very appropiate ("pimping" was not a serious term), and i still think that small thumbnails would help a lot. Art station is a good example of a great way to showcase works.
There are several Vbulletin forums that are not using the default old table style. We can see dynamic/liquid forums that can be easily readed in a smartphone.
@Blazier: Agreed. It just wasn't a serious or accurate term. Why it this an issue to get upset over?
@Iconplast: Thanks. I appreciate that. I'm sensitive so I'm torn between "I'm trying to be professional, I don't have time for insecure arguments, I have art to make and contacts to network with" and "I'm pretty sure this guys just threw a cheap shot at me for something I never said at all and after I tried carefully to avoid such a thing" Ironically I carefully worded my post to sound non-contentious (LOL :poly124:), never indicated that I was seriously upset or offended or even had any issue with the word "pimping" at all, only that I had 5 years ago for around 5 seconds gotten a cultural vibe that I didn't relate to (and never said anything) and went to game-artist.net instead. Edit:.
yes i did throw a cheap shot at you and you took the high road. so i just let it go.
about the whole thumbnail thing i have to say artstation is probably a bad example. 99% of all work that gets uploaded gets 20 minutes of facetime on the top of latest and is never seen again after that.
lol that's so sad, it's funny. Don't they know Polycount is the kickassestestestest place on the intarrwebs?!?
Agree 100%
The amount of times I've gone into a thread just curious about the name. Also ended up critiquing in threads I might not have bothered checking if there was a thumbnail.