Getting crits when you're a beginner
I realize being a broken record isn't fun for anyone, so I can see how people simply don't comment on newbie threads.
Not complaining, rather seeking a solution. What's the best way for a new (ish) zbrush artist to get critiques, just on the simple boring stuff like anatomy and clothing?
I've noticed a strange, "middle ground" here on Polycount, always have. Extremely new people seem to get a lot of feedback. Extremely talented people get a lot of feedback. The middle area isn't addressed well.
Reference is, of course, very important but sometimes you just need an extra set of eyes.
Thanks!
Not complaining, rather seeking a solution. What's the best way for a new (ish) zbrush artist to get critiques, just on the simple boring stuff like anatomy and clothing?
I've noticed a strange, "middle ground" here on Polycount, always have. Extremely new people seem to get a lot of feedback. Extremely talented people get a lot of feedback. The middle area isn't addressed well.
Reference is, of course, very important but sometimes you just need an extra set of eyes.
Thanks!
Replies
High end artists don't need explanation, if you say it needs more contrast, they know all of the ways to add contrast, like material, color, value, visual density, etc, etc. And newbie artists can thrive off of simple critiques like "it's all large and small shapes, you need to add medium-sized shapes as well" So that's why you see so many of those.
Also... what Justin said.
At least that's how it's always been in the studios I've worked for.
However, "it is how it is" is a bad mind set. Obviously, the answer is, "just keep going." There has to be something you can do, post to, join, etc? Maybe its not on these forums? If that's the case, has anyone had better luck elsewhere?
What also stinks is if you do have a mid range piece and you take the advise of someone who writes out an actual explanation, then it's can become a decent piece.
Being able to learn and improve by yourself is probably the single most worthwhile skill any artist can have. You need to learn to critique your own work, see flaw in your own pieces. When you do a study, nothing is stopping you from comparing that piece to life or professional work and analyzing the differences. You'll get better at analyzing work over time, and your own artwork will improve as a result.
Something else I think not a lot of people realize is that getting crits online can be nice, but it's usually passing thoughts at best - and they're coming from people who don't know you, your goals, or much other than what you're showing them and mentioned along with the image. Interpreting critique from random strangers will still require a lot of personal study - either to understand the critique, determine the validity of it, or even to decide if you should disregard it. At the end of the day, the work and study will still come from you - having a stranger potentially point you in the right direction isn't something I think you should try too hard on if you could be putting that time into experimenting yourself. Nice if it happens, but don't let it distract you from improving on your own.
Yeah it happens quite a bit. I've struggled with this quite a bit in the past but it makes me think about all the critiques I used to get to how I didn't get as many. While it made me sad when I started, I also too it to mean I had leveled up a little bit.
The best advice is keep plugging away and being critical of your own work. I saw someone mention it once before, but make an inspiration folder of reference art and throw a screenshot or two of your current art in there as well. When you get to a point that you can skim through the folder and your art quality matches the professional reference it means you're doing something right.
openly and clearly state you need crit in the topic, otherwise people won't take the time to crit because it is unclear if you are showing off or wanting to progress with the piece.
Also, if you want to improve on the zbrush side of things, you are probably looking for anatomy crits (not actual zbrush techniques) so that might help guiding the people into what problems they are looking to solve about the sculpt.
to elaborate on what justin has said, which is great advice, Try to understand what exactly about the pieces isn't working..be your own self-critic, especially at a mid level, you will improve a lot faster if you can pin-point areas that are not working for you...what looks wrong? the head, the neck, the hands, the lighting, the posing etc.. this will show you have already pushed yourself and are actively looking for someone else's eye.
hope that helps!
Yea, I don't get much crit either unless it's from someone I know or I'm being a total nub. It's interesting what Justin said though
I guess that's a good skill to learn!! Figure out how to pick apart your own pieces.
I think some people are a bit confused though about self criticism. Normally, when I make anything. I'll work for the day or until my brain feels like mush, and then critique my own work.
The following day (when I'm fresh) I'll check out my work again and fix all the issues my less exhausted eyes see.
Repeat process until completion.
Self critique is not the issue. As stated by someone up the thread, self critique is something that you get better with over time. My difficulty is the things I'm just not seeing or don't know to look for. In these situations, a critique from someone else is most helpful.
The rough thing about relying on friends is even though I went to art school, I was the only one interested in 3D. Doh!
Anyways, I've been plugging away at this so people can see what I mean if anyone is curious: http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=140513
But I just got a paint-over so that is freakin awesome
I also have been too lazy to really analyze it, but I think the thread title has a lot to do with the number of views. Like..
[TB2] Sci-fi Gun
[TB2] Proto-plasma Disruptor Super-Dooper Rifle *CRITS PLEASE*
I think I overdid it but hmm...
***Suggestions to get more feedback***
-Enter contests and leave others helpful feedback. You scratch my back I'll scratch yours. Group hug! It's why contests are great.
-Monthly character challenge thread-> group learning with emphasis on giving critics.
-Stick around and be persistent. Not persistent in begging for critics but showing your working hard.
***End of suggestions***
As others have said -> Self-reliance. Plenty of tutorials on the internet for everything you could dream up. Gum-roads are awesome.
;/
Don't know what to say. I go through threads of zero crits too. Most of my feedback now comes from my network of awesome art friends who are better than me in any given area.
even if they just recognize your avatar from a lot of threads as they comb through PC - the sense of familiarity can often lubricate the feedback machine.
Here's an example:
And you should post regularly enough that you'll have decent chances of getting help (and post your work responding to crits!) but don't flood the board with your stuff or people will just skip over you.
But, yeah - read some books on the thing you want to learn and practice every day, and get good at self-critique. They are so important.
Then if you want to help newer members/modellers and critique them you can go there to help.
But equally this will not be an enforced rule, as in if you're a newbie you have to post there, as that is a bit unfair, especially if your new to the forum but not new to modelling. Ideally it should be thought as a better place for newer modellers to post as it will get the right kind of attention & critique that will be targeted for their level ?
I think this has been brought up before and the issue is mainly with content bloat. You may notice the sub-forum for digital sketchbooks. This area has been talked about specifically for posting your WIP stuff in the past and hardly anyone really uses it because it's a extra work.
I tend to stick to specific forums. I'll venture into sketchbooks every now and again but it's mainly to see specific artists stuff. Polycount has gotten pretty big. It's hard to keep your stuff on the front page of P&P but when you get too much "forum bloat" people tend to just ignore stuff they don't care to see. I think splitting off a "noob" area is a bad idea because I think it would actually further separate you from professional eyes.
there is a time when you are heading in the right direction, and simply just keep working is the answer. and the only real crit you can give is "Hey, this is pretty good, you have some problems, but do 10 more of these and youl be fine"
buut what do I know, might be just me =P
Do you crit other peoples work?
(Invariably the answer has almost always been "no".)
This is a community. And when people remember your awesome crit from a piece they were making, they are probably more likely to return the favour.
QFT! It's definitely a two way street when it comes to crits.
I used to post critiques until people would just start shutting me down.
I stopped posting my work when PnP became a total PIMPED SHOWOFF, and the work that needs to be critiqued gets buried under the third page instantly. I mean, that section completely lost its meaning, because experienced people started posting their arts that does not require any judgement none what so ever.
It's also one of the downers that makes you quit.
Just to let you know that you are not the first one who feels this way.
if professionals have time to post their art dumps and get massive applause on polycount, they have time to critique.
People at every level will always have something co contribute. Sometimes just, "that looks funny, but I'm not sure how to fix it" can be enough. And if you don't know how to fix it, it's a good excuse for you to pull out your reference books and have a look yourself!
Nobody is helped with saying "Oh great" and while getting praise is surely what everyone wants and needs, I think giving such Yes-sayer feedback is invaluable. If its great then the artists knows anyways, its not constructive and if anything, then it hurts the artist. There is always stuff to improve, and the problem with the beginner stuff, especially characters like thread creator's is that many people dont know anatomy and if characters are not mastered, there will usually be many mistakes and it would be tedious to point them all out I suppose. I per example have no clue about anatomy
Also ive never seen it that way, from my experience are you getting pretty good help on the PNP forums in 90% of the cases and if not then ask again. Its free anyways : P
Also never forget around 80% of the forums are readers and they very rarely post. Thats about the conversion rate
of every forum, it takes comittment and time to write, and there are only invisible benefits
Shit got weird at that GDC meetup this year. So many lurkers... it was hard to work out who was actually a poster.
I was kind of a creepy feeling being known by strangers, and you don't know who they are. Just this silent army of onlookers reading this very post.
That's right readers, I'm breaking the 4th wall and talking directly to you.
Avoid being creepy at meetups with one simple trick that doctors hate. Just sign up and post some art and contribute to the forums!
That's actually a really good point. I've got pointers like that even from people who aren't 3d artists. Sometimes all you need is a second opinion, even if they can't really tell you what is wrong and it's up to you to figure it out. Helps you grow a lot, I think.
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On a serious note tho this is pretty common, alot of peeps do just this, making a thread about "Why aren't I getting any crits?" and thus letting everyone know that they do indeed want a proper crit.
It's all about ASKING FOR CRITS, even if you have to ask in block capitals. If peeps know that you are willing to take a proper real legit harsh crit then they will give you one. So make a thread and throw some art in there already.
Man, one of the first people I ask for crits is my wife. She isn't professionally trained nor can she do anything when it comes to 3d or 2d art, but she can tell when something doesn't look right. It makes me step back and re-evaluate.
Don't ever take crits for granted. I mean this both for giving crits (thinking you're not good enough to point out potential flaws in someone else's work) as well as receiving crits ("their art is terrible, how DARE they critique my work). Someone doesn't have to be pro level over 9000 for their opinion to be relevant. :poly121:
Just kidding of course, I like what you've mentionned about asking your spouse, friends or anyone really you can trust will give their honest opinion. That is very crutial, in fact, this forums is one of the best for valid honest crits but you should definately take some of the larger non-artist feedback as they are usually the main cosummers and target audience for art.
Ahaha I mostly lurk precisely because I don't feel qualified to comment on peoples' art most of the time - I've never worked in the industry and haven't yet even got a portfolio up to snuff where I'd be comfortable seeking work.
+1
The monthly challenge threads (whether it be for DOTA2 items, environment art, character art , or the gun thread) are some of the best places for beginner critiques lately. One of the rules is that every time you post your own work, you need to give at least one valid critique of someone else's work. People are of course welcome to give critiques anyways.
Some of the best feedback I've ever gotten were from designers, programmers, or non-artists.
You get a very un-technical explanation of what works, or what doesn't, but I still find their feedback invaluable.
I'm also a part time teacher, and a few of my students have given me amazing crits on my work.
Qualification has nothing to do with it.
Learning to crit, is very important for developing your critical eye. And your critical eye helps you when you create your own art.
Every good artist is always learning.
Same here and look how many dumbass posts I make. I figure someone will yell at me when it gets annoying
Also...if you aren't getting replies...just keep going man...you don't need reaffirmation to keep on going yourself. Post some work...if you don't get critique post an update and keep going. Eventually people might take note and see that you are trying pretty hard (not to mention you will just get more exposure over time) and you might stand a better chance of getting critique.
Also, don't listen to Nightwalkr, that defeatist attitude isn't going to help matters any.
agree 100%
If you gave up because of what other people were doing then it might be a clue.
A clue of what?
Oh and I didnt stop doing arts I just stopped posting because I didnt get any critiques. People there are usually looking for arts that makes them come.