Keep the flat value for spec. Something around rgb 56,56,56 will work fine. All of your work will be done in your gloss map. Your current gloss map looks incorrect to me. You're best off generating your gloss by hand
I'd start with a flat color for your gloss as well. Find your baseline value first and then start hand painting brighter or darker areas to modulate your gloss. Typically you'll have brighter values at the tip of the nose and possibly on the lips if she is wearing some lipstick or lip gloss.
Keep in mind though that this is a lot of push and pull across all of your maps. If you are using a high res normal map with a lot of high frequency detail you'll have to adjust your gloss accordingly. Detail normal maps also have a big impact on your gloss as well because they break up the gloss further. A lot of times if you use detail normal maps or if you have a lot of pronounced detail, you'll probably have to push your gloss values a tad bit higher to compensate
This presentation has some great info for doing realtime heads
edit: here's the chart i was talking about with gloss regions of the face! http://www.pinterest.com/pin/468796642435477013/ note that these values are specific to the shader that acti-blizz used at the time of print (which i believe is phong-based). generally speaking, GGX or Beckmann shaders are better representations of skin reflectivity, and you'll need to adjust the values in the chart if using either of those shaders, but they're still a good baseline.
Thanks for the great reference ZippZopp! This ppt is intense. I'll rework the gloss map according to these tips.
almighty_gir (aka the british guy) haha! Small world. This tightly woven industry never ceases to amaze me. I do have a question: Why do some of my maps look lighter in tone once imported into marmoset? I've been saving my maps as psd's - I thought this had something to do with it so I started saving them as tgas instead, but with the same results. I posted a screenshot in my previous post.
Typically if you're authoring your content in photoshop, you'll want them to be sRGB in toolbag. Exceptions to this are normalmaps (these should NEVER be sRGB) and gloss/roughness, which are better in linear format because gloss/roughness themselves are linear math conversions. However it's not uncommon to use sRGB as your input map type for gloss/roughness especially if you've authored it that way in photoshop.
Thanks for all the help yet again you guys. Here's my new gloss map with a render of the skin against the light. I think the freckles are a great addition!
Also, here is an image I whipped up in PS REALLY fast to get a feel for how I'm going to approach her suit.
As I've said before, the concept is changing as I go. I like a lot of pinup space girls in a wild and funky galaxy. Here is one of my favorites:
No matter how much I tried to make it work, the colors from the original concept were just too desaturated. She looked more like a soldier than a pinup, and I don't think the dull colors will look good in a futuristic spacey environment. I don't usually go for such bold colors in my designs, but I think this is the direction I want to go. Thoughts?
Looking good, I like the suit colors. Would be kinda cool to have some red trimming or highlights or something somewhere to balance out all the red on her head.
Good point BagelHero. Yes, my friends suggested the same thing about highlighting areas in red. Forgot to do that- I'll be sure to add that in areas that make sense. Maybe the thighs, boots, gloves, helmet, and wrist thingys could have some bits of red just to break it up a bit.
Hey guys... Once again, the struggles of not having a solid concept are slowing me down. Once I started polypainting, I couldn't land on a coherent concept. I like elements of all three of these, but can't decide on the one I like the best. The first one is closest to the original image, the last one is closest to the rough PS paint job I did the other night, and the middle one is just a random creation (I'm leaning towards this one). Which one do you like? 1,2, or 3? Feel free to paint over or mix and match.
EDIT: The boots aren't part of this render since they're in another tool as this one is already starting to chug. The plates of the boots will likely match all of the chest/arm plates with a brown leather peaking out at the bottom. The leather will match the jetpack and holster.
Side view of option 1:
(This character is starting to turn into a "choose your own adventure!")
I like 3 and 1 around the same amount, but for different reasons. 1 is sombre, but it's nice. a lot of potentials for matching a similar feel to the original idea here. 3 is fun, though, with cool pin up potential.
My 2 cents... I like the third option. I think the green works better to complement her hair and help frame her face. The red is confrontational and too similar to her hair colour.
Imagine you're doing a model photo shoot (essentially what this is) and you're picking out an outfit to suit her hair colour.
So now that my normals are baked, I've started into the texturing phase. Marmoset makes everything easier, but I was getting frustrated with the color choices I was making (bold teals, reds, and golds.) I just wasn't confident with them. So in a super-quick/non-destructive move, I desaturated all the tones on my textures, added a greenish brown color to my albedo, and highlighted a few red spots to better match the original concept. This is the first render I haven't hated in a while. What do you think? I'll post some of the brighter colored ones later, but for now I'm going to go to bed.
If I decide to go with this color scheme, I'll make the pads on her thighs red to match the rest.
Does anyone know how to eliminate the creasing that's happening on the front of the helmet? The UV island is mirrored and offset to save space. I thought this would also correct such errors when baking, but I guess not. Any solutions?
Her head is a tad too big for her body. If you can scale the LP down a teeeny bit that might be good, not too big an issues otherwise.
As for the seam... Does it appear in the normal map flat in some form, or is it something that only happens when you apply the normal to the mesh? Does it happen when you're not in Toolbag?
These newest updates are looking golden, otherwise.
agreed on the head, it does look too big. is the seam down the middle a hard edge on the mesh? it is most likely caused by a hard edge on the mesh in combination with how it was baked. it almost looks like it could have been baked with soft edges but the normal map is being displayed on mesh with a hard edge there
I shrunk her head, and worked a little more on the textures. I think I'll spend one more night tweaking before I start posing.
From this distance her eyes look a little dead. I'm thinking it might be my AO settings mixed with the parallax slider I have on the eye material. I'll try to adjust that some more tonight after work.
Also, I realized that the problem with the helmet isn't the normal map. When I remove the normal map from the slot in Toolbag, the mesh itself has the pinched seam. It doesn't look this way in Max, and the model is to scale. Does anyone know if there is a way to fix this in Marmoset? If not, I'll just have to re-unwrap that part of the helmet without using mirrored UVs.
I'll also be adjusting the metal textures on the gun and jetpack to better match her armor.
Hey guys, I think I'm done texturing. The only little tweak I need to make is to adjust the material settings on the dark stripes on her elbows and shoulders as well as add an edge loop or two to the shoulders for a less boxy silhouette. Next step, I'll be giving her an expression as well as giving her a more dynamic pose.
Wow I really like your line drawing, and the model looks great!
I think the torso could do with more bulk in her suit. Her helmet looks a bit too large in contrast with the rest of her suit, almost like she's shrugging. Perhaps bigger shoulders would even this out a bit.
Her hair also seems a little too perfect. I appreciate that it's a pin-up style, but I don't think her hair would retain quite so much shape after squeezing her head into her helmet. I prefer the slightly more free flowing hairstyle in your line drawing and the original concept.
It's a really cool project, and some very nice hard surface stuff in there.
Thanks Wesley, I was keeping it bigger to fit her hair, but you're right so I made the helmet as small as I could without clipping through the hair mesh. Just for extra measure, I've scaled up the size of the shoulders. I think these changes were an improvement, so thanks for the crit! (I'm too far in to change her hair at this point - plus I like the way it looks)
Here is my latest. I'd like to make the expression a little softer and open her mouth just a bit more for a sexier look. I need to rotate the resting hand so it's not so straight on and I'm going to move her aiming arm forward more so she's actually looking down the barrel of the gun. I'm getting closer to finishing this little project. Let me know if you have any more crits or easy fixes. (Big changes are out at this point. I just want to call her done and move on.)
Congrats on making it this far! Texture turned out pretty nice
As for crits, the pose is pretty stiff, needs to be more dynamic. The first thing making this seem like this is that your shoulders and hips are on the same angle, which tends to make things look stiff and uncomfortable. They tend to be on opposing angles. So, suggestion/example.
EDIT: also, if she's shooting like this, it looks "cooler" to have her arm extended out completely. Having it pulled back kind of works better for a shot where she's not shooting, like she's identifying a threat or something. But if it's pulled back and shooting it seems like it would look indecisive.
Also feeling like the lighting is pretty weak, and I've no clue where any of the sources would be. Get a rimlight in there, maybe a planet that's creating that source in the background, and maybe tweak the basic setup of the other ones. Maybe get your ambient darker so the contrast created by the lights is increased.
Good points as always, BagelHero. I'm copying a pose directly from an image I liked online:
Cool paint over though, I like that pose. Very pinup. It's crazy how often I have to be reminded of basic principles such as opposing hip/shoulder angles. (duh! I knew that!) I'll get on these edits tomorrow.
(I haven't put much into lighting yet. It's just the standard marmoset scene lighting.)
I think I want to add the alien/octopus tentacle grabbing her leg like the image above.
Ah! It makes more sense with the tentacle (which I'm totally behind btw). I reckon you'll be able to come up with something that works. If you look at your ref, it's actually got the opposing lines too, so you should be able to balance it back out using that if you'd like. looking forward to the updates!
More updates. I tried to turn the hips and shoulders as much as I could without deforming the mesh (I'm not the best at skinning/rigging) I still want to model the octopus tentacles and I like this pose, so I think this will work for now. I'm mostly happy with the expression, although if I come back tomorrow with fresh eyes and hate it, I'll re-adjust.
thanks, almighty_gir. yeah I have a very slight roughness in my gloss map for the glass, but I can definitely make it more intense if it's not showing up. It's a good point since the rest of her armor looks pretty worn in.
Unfortunately, the tentacles will have to wait. I won't be able to call this character done until next week since I'll be traveling home for the holiday.
Lack of edge wear or ao on things like the helmet, and shoulder pads really would push this further. (The visor hairband horseshoe shape thing is a great example of what I'm talking about. just looks so undefined, lack of edge quality/distinction, the material is nice, but no bevel....no edge wear.) The white padding on the inside of the helmet makes it look unfinished, I'd change the cololr and go with a similar orange you used for the trim, or a slight variant. Looking good though. A little baked in/hand painted shadow where the hair line meets up with the skin texture would go a long way as well. Keep going.
Thanks Wesley! It's an awesome feeling being this close to the finish line. I appreciate the crits! They really helped balance out the character's proportions.
PixelPatron: These are all achievable fixes, I'll be sure to address them when I get back home next week. These edits will push it just a little further and won't take too long. I'd like a second opinion about the white cushion. I like the contrast as plain white. Maybe if I just give it some more wear and tear instead of changing the color? I'll experiment to find what I like. (I can see your point about it looking unfinished though).
I'll add the baked shadow around the hair line. I hadn't thought of that! Thanks for the input!
If you want to keep the white cushion, making it a cream color might help, I think. Also, seconding the need for ao and edge wear. Might edit this post later to be useful and less phone-y.
Looking great! Definitely love the final color scheme. I do agree with BagelHero on the white padding. I wouldn't go too creme. Just a slight off white. You're almost there!
Hey guys! I've added the alien's tentacles, given the cushion a creamier color, and I roughed up some edges on the armor. Unless you have any very minor tweaks, I'm going to call this one done. For the future, I might try to give the scene a better environment/background (not sure about that wispy smoke). Thanks for all your help polycounters! I would have a much weaker final piece if not for your guidance.
Needs more space. On that, also, I wold tone down the orange in that Keylight and maybe even the rim, white/light yellow or purple might be the way to go with this shot. it would make the alien seem more mysterious and intimidating, and less studio...y. Almost there!
Looking great! Yea, given that you decided to put the character in an environment I would definitely add a bit more. Maybe a slight matte painting including a moon in the background or some planet. Doesn't have to be much, but something. I second bagel hero on the lighting. The whole beauty shot feels flat and I would add more spot lighting on the girl and make the creature fade in the dark a bit.
Crap, just realised-- the studio look I was complaining about might actually be the result of your sky data. Your ambient source is from an inside environment with very even lighting, you can even see the lights in the reflection so I'm not sure about that.
And while the lighting looks better, and the new background is awesome, this is still wigging me out:
It looks too warm for space.
You could probably add some color correction in post FX (I tried it out in PS and it looks much better with some color correction so that'll probably work even better with the source in Toolbag) and make it mesh a little more without messing with the light colors or HDRI too much, too. I think it should be a cooler color, maybe a purple since that direction is the direction of the purple haze and everything else is like... blue. So more blue would be overkill.
Not sure how well a space HDRI would work, but really unsure about that studio lighting from the current one. Maybe, maybe not. I think with color correction/keylight edit you could probably get away with it.
I was having trouble with local reflections in the viewport. I hadn't tried rendering the image to see my results, but I didn't like what I was seeing on screen so I shut it off.
It sticks out that you didn't use it because you have a lot of reflective surfaces. It's particularly noticeable on the jetpack, where the three metal tubes go into the main bottom bit-- None of them reflect each other and that's the kinda thing that sticks out like a sore thumb.
It's no biggie, but it'll date your renders pretty quick (and I know marmoset has some issues with the local reflections so I'm not going to be like "go fix it!!", just nit-picking because I care).
Replies
I'd start with a flat color for your gloss as well. Find your baseline value first and then start hand painting brighter or darker areas to modulate your gloss. Typically you'll have brighter values at the tip of the nose and possibly on the lips if she is wearing some lipstick or lip gloss.
Keep in mind though that this is a lot of push and pull across all of your maps. If you are using a high res normal map with a lot of high frequency detail you'll have to adjust your gloss accordingly. Detail normal maps also have a big impact on your gloss as well because they break up the gloss further. A lot of times if you use detail normal maps or if you have a lot of pronounced detail, you'll probably have to push your gloss values a tad bit higher to compensate
This presentation has some great info for doing realtime heads
http://www.iryoku.com/downloads/Next-Generation-Character-Rendering-v6.pptx
let me know if you have any questions.
edit: here's the chart i was talking about with gloss regions of the face! http://www.pinterest.com/pin/468796642435477013/ note that these values are specific to the shader that acti-blizz used at the time of print (which i believe is phong-based). generally speaking, GGX or Beckmann shaders are better representations of skin reflectivity, and you'll need to adjust the values in the chart if using either of those shaders, but they're still a good baseline.
almighty_gir (aka the british guy) haha! Small world. This tightly woven industry never ceases to amaze me. I do have a question: Why do some of my maps look lighter in tone once imported into marmoset? I've been saving my maps as psd's - I thought this had something to do with it so I started saving them as tgas instead, but with the same results. I posted a screenshot in my previous post.
Typically if you're authoring your content in photoshop, you'll want them to be sRGB in toolbag. Exceptions to this are normalmaps (these should NEVER be sRGB) and gloss/roughness, which are better in linear format because gloss/roughness themselves are linear math conversions. However it's not uncommon to use sRGB as your input map type for gloss/roughness especially if you've authored it that way in photoshop.
Also, here is an image I whipped up in PS REALLY fast to get a feel for how I'm going to approach her suit.
As I've said before, the concept is changing as I go. I like a lot of pinup space girls in a wild and funky galaxy. Here is one of my favorites:
No matter how much I tried to make it work, the colors from the original concept were just too desaturated. She looked more like a soldier than a pinup, and I don't think the dull colors will look good in a futuristic spacey environment. I don't usually go for such bold colors in my designs, but I think this is the direction I want to go. Thoughts?
EDIT: The boots aren't part of this render since they're in another tool as this one is already starting to chug. The plates of the boots will likely match all of the chest/arm plates with a brown leather peaking out at the bottom. The leather will match the jetpack and holster.
Side view of option 1:
(This character is starting to turn into a "choose your own adventure!")
2 misses the mark for me, personally.
Imagine you're doing a model photo shoot (essentially what this is) and you're picking out an outfit to suit her hair colour.
but mybe some more bright gold would work also rly nice with
the hair in #3
If I decide to go with this color scheme, I'll make the pads on her thighs red to match the rest.
EDIT: Grammar
As for the seam... Does it appear in the normal map flat in some form, or is it something that only happens when you apply the normal to the mesh? Does it happen when you're not in Toolbag?
These newest updates are looking golden, otherwise.
i'm liking the new color scheme
From this distance her eyes look a little dead. I'm thinking it might be my AO settings mixed with the parallax slider I have on the eye material. I'll try to adjust that some more tonight after work.
Also, I realized that the problem with the helmet isn't the normal map. When I remove the normal map from the slot in Toolbag, the mesh itself has the pinched seam. It doesn't look this way in Max, and the model is to scale. Does anyone know if there is a way to fix this in Marmoset? If not, I'll just have to re-unwrap that part of the helmet without using mirrored UVs.
I'll also be adjusting the metal textures on the gun and jetpack to better match her armor.
I think the torso could do with more bulk in her suit. Her helmet looks a bit too large in contrast with the rest of her suit, almost like she's shrugging. Perhaps bigger shoulders would even this out a bit.
Her hair also seems a little too perfect. I appreciate that it's a pin-up style, but I don't think her hair would retain quite so much shape after squeezing her head into her helmet. I prefer the slightly more free flowing hairstyle in your line drawing and the original concept.
It's a really cool project, and some very nice hard surface stuff in there.
Here is my latest. I'd like to make the expression a little softer and open her mouth just a bit more for a sexier look. I need to rotate the resting hand so it's not so straight on and I'm going to move her aiming arm forward more so she's actually looking down the barrel of the gun. I'm getting closer to finishing this little project. Let me know if you have any more crits or easy fixes. (Big changes are out at this point. I just want to call her done and move on.)
As for crits, the pose is pretty stiff, needs to be more dynamic. The first thing making this seem like this is that your shoulders and hips are on the same angle, which tends to make things look stiff and uncomfortable. They tend to be on opposing angles. So, suggestion/example.
EDIT: also, if she's shooting like this, it looks "cooler" to have her arm extended out completely. Having it pulled back kind of works better for a shot where she's not shooting, like she's identifying a threat or something. But if it's pulled back and shooting it seems like it would look indecisive.
Also feeling like the lighting is pretty weak, and I've no clue where any of the sources would be. Get a rimlight in there, maybe a planet that's creating that source in the background, and maybe tweak the basic setup of the other ones. Maybe get your ambient darker so the contrast created by the lights is increased.
Cool paint over though, I like that pose. Very pinup. It's crazy how often I have to be reminded of basic principles such as opposing hip/shoulder angles. (duh! I knew that!) I'll get on these edits tomorrow.
(I haven't put much into lighting yet. It's just the standard marmoset scene lighting.)
I think I want to add the alien/octopus tentacle grabbing her leg like the image above.
Here's an updated glass gloss.
The helmet and shoulder proportions look much better now, nice and balanced. Some awesome texturing and a nice crisp model. Very impressive piece!
PixelPatron: These are all achievable fixes, I'll be sure to address them when I get back home next week. These edits will push it just a little further and won't take too long. I'd like a second opinion about the white cushion. I like the contrast as plain white. Maybe if I just give it some more wear and tear instead of changing the color? I'll experiment to find what I like. (I can see your point about it looking unfinished though).
I'll add the baked shadow around the hair line. I hadn't thought of that! Thanks for the input!
You are so close!
And while the lighting looks better, and the new background is awesome, this is still wigging me out:
It looks too warm for space.
You could probably add some color correction in post FX (I tried it out in PS and it looks much better with some color correction so that'll probably work even better with the source in Toolbag) and make it mesh a little more without messing with the light colors or HDRI too much, too. I think it should be a cooler color, maybe a purple since that direction is the direction of the purple haze and everything else is like... blue. So more blue would be overkill.
Not sure how well a space HDRI would work, but really unsure about that studio lighting from the current one. Maybe, maybe not. I think with color correction/keylight edit you could probably get away with it.
Looks great! Those texture breakdowns are fab. Good job sticking to this and polishing it off.
One last question for the future from me, do you have all these options ticked on in all these shots?
As far as your question...Everything but local reflections, yes.
Were you having issues with local reflections? It stands out a little.
In the image itself or just that I didn't use it?
It's no biggie, but it'll date your renders pretty quick (and I know marmoset has some issues with the local reflections so I'm not going to be like "go fix it!!", just nit-picking because I care).