Struggle to model/sculpt characters

Bokche

Hey Guys, i need help from you. I am struggling to build characters in Maya and Zbrush. I am not sure how to start, how to approach, and what to do. I watched many tutorials, and it is easy when you see what to do. But when i try to build something without any kind of tutorial, i am stuck.

I would like to build some stylized/cartoon characters, before i go to any high end realistic models. But i am not sure what to do. I start a model in Zbrush, i delete after couple of hours, because i am not sure how to even get close to the concept.

Most concept i found have one picture.And it is in some dynamic pose or 3/4 view. I search from this site http://www.pinterest.com/search/boards/?q=Cartoon%20%20concept

How to build some, where i have only one reference/one source from that character?

And my Anatomy sucks, no idea how to even study anatomy...

Help????

Neox

good cartoon characters do not need less anatomical knowledge, or artistic experience etc. Before you can break anatomy down to simplification you need to understand how things work. Otherwise your cartoon characters will look shit.

second of all, get an anatomy books and eat that thing, you don't have to know every muscle by name (yeah yeah ryan kingsliens says otherwise) but knowing the outer shape defining ones wouldn't hurt.
abstracting things needs another skillset than working photorealistic, but they rely on the very same base.

get used to concepts in perspective and posed, orthos are rare and NEVER match.

EmAr

Drawing from life/photographs would be very helpful in addition to what Neox suggested. This site is good for that. Use the class mode for 1 hour every day for example. It doesn't matter if you don't like the results. Just try to understand the pose and recreate it on paper:

http://artists.pixelovely.com/practice-tools/figure-drawing/

If you have no idea about drawing, I'd recommend the Vilppu Drawing Manual. Drawing 3 dimensional objects on 2 dimensional media and modeling 3d characters from 2d concepts go hand in hand. You don't have to learn how to draw, but it really helps.

These suggestions are meant as a way to make you feel more confident while working from non-ideal references which is the case most of the time in my experience.

EDIT: The Vilppu Drawing Manual suggests reading a book on perspective in a section. Just watch Ctrl+Paint's premium Perspective Sketching videos. They are by far the fastest way to understand perspective that I know of.

Suba

What tutorials did you watch? Cause there is a lot of tutorials out there, but a lot of shitty ones too.

Bokche

Neox wrote: »

good cartoon characters do not need less anatomical knowledge, or artistic experience etc. Before you can break anatomy down to simplification you need to understand how things work. Otherwise your cartoon characters will look shit.

second of all, get an anatomy books and eat that thing, you don't have to know every muscle by name (yeah yeah ryan kingsliens says otherwise) but knowing the outer shape defining ones wouldn't hurt.
abstracting things needs another skillset than working photorealistic, but they rely on the very same base.

get used to concepts in perspective and posed, orthos are rare and NEVER match.

How to understand things? I mean, what the heck i have to understand?
I am nit confused when i am watching Ryan courses. I don't have a clue of what he is saying.

How to get know that 'outer shape'I know orthos i never the same, i can't even get one good reference. How to approach concept that are drawn from perspective, or have some very dynamic pose. Any courses? Recommendation for something?

cgmonkey

But making a cartoon character in Zbrush? It is the absolutely hardest thing you can do in Zbrush. It takes a lot of know-how and intuition to get to a point where the characters look good.

Shiniku

I think it just comes from experience. You shouldn't need a full turnaround to model a character, and even in production you may rarely ever get one, depending where you're working, so you can't depend on it. Drawing from life is probably a good way to get the hang of how to interpret forms and measure with your eyes.

I know it's mentioned in almost every thread of this kind, but search up Andrew Loomis Figure Drawing for all it's worth. Great starting point for anatomy and it should be easy enough to understand if you take it slow and really study it.

Bokche

Thanks guys, i will get that book this weekend.
I know everything comes down on experience. But, i would really like to know how to actually approach a sculpt with only one concept art. I know that i will not get orthos on every single character.

I thought making cartoon character in Zbrush is easy. I know for hyper realistic it is extremely hard.

Should i start then to model in Maya?

pior

Hi there !

Indeed, sculpting characters (cartoony or realistic) is not easy. I suppose that cartoony ones seem easier because there is less apparent complexity involved ... but removing details and maintaining strong surface tension is just as hard, if not harder, than cramming in details.

Regarding the issue of most concept art being in perspective while you would prefer orthos : if that's a problem , then just draw your own front, back and side views man ! There is no point in guessing all that while modeling, especially if you are not familiar with the subject. Be humble, and don't put the cart before the wheels.

Don't get influenced by video tutorials showing someone just "making it happen" straight in 3d. These artists most likely have years of experience with the subject, which is something that you admittedly do not have. So, take your time, and if you feel like there is an aspect of the character that you do not understand, avoid trying to "figure it out" straight in Zbrush. Simply take the time to draw diagrams, cross sections, side views before even opening your 3D program. Solve all the problems first !

Regarding building things in regular 3d first in Maya : it's a tricky question. There is no doubt that artists who went through that in the past learned a lot of valuable things that way. For instance, it forces one to be economical and clever with polygons, which ironically is very similar to doing a rough block out in real clay. However now that sculpting programs are so powerful, it can feel like a waste of time. Therefore my advice would be to take on a hybrid approach : using Max/Maya to throw some deformed primitives together in order to get close to the overall read of the character ; and then, bring that to Zbrush for some dynamesh fun.

Bokche

Thanks pior.

I was thinking the same thing, about to do hybrid approach. I know how powerful Zbrush can be now, i have seen what can do in Zbrush, and in Maya, like you say is waste of time. But, i am not sure how much to spend between these programs.

I do not have an issue for concept being in perspective, i just don't know how to approach. Those tutorials i am watching, don't even say about it. They just start in Zbrush and bum there is the character.

I prefer to use someone orthos, thant to draw, since my draw is not near beginning level, so drawing something, would be pain in the ass, maybe for now.


Would be nice, if you have time, to tell me hoe to take this hubrid approach between maya and Zbrush.

Should i start in Zbrush, and do retopo in Maya, Or to make base mesh, and then to use Zbrush.

slosh

I would suggest starting in Maya. Block out a rough body and head with very few polys. Look at a lot of reference and try to get the proportions correct...proper head size, arm lenth, etc. Post WIP to get feedback to make sure it looks accurate. When you have a well proportioned human body and head modeled out, you can take the next step into zbrush to sculpt in the anatomy. You have to learn proper proportion and anatomy before you try stylized cartoony characters or they aren't going to look right.

Something like this. This is slightly stylized but the proportions are good and the geo is optimized for good sculpting.

stevston89

I think the most important thing to keep in mind is that all of the really good artists made bad art when they were starting out. Unfortunately you have to power through the early stages of bad art until you start to make art you think is actually good. That is why you really have to want to make art. A lot of people get into this simply because they like games and that isn't enough. You have the passion to make art in order to get through the bad art stages.

My best recommendation is to take your time. A lot of people start out wanting to speed through to the good art and that is not how it works. You have to take your time and push for the highest quality possible. Try participating in the noob character challenges here on polycount. There are tons of great anatomy resources available now one of my favorites is https://www.anatomy4sculptors.com/ . Just keep making art and you will get there.

Bokche

Do i need more tutorials for this? I don't know how many i have. But half of them are useless. I do not believe anymore for tutorials, because.... i don't know, many things they don't explain, they do very fast things and don't explain why they are doing.

This is what i want to learn

How to approach a concept art,
-either with one or more pictures or orthos. Not just, take a concept and start modeling, like everyone is doing

How to learn Anatomy,
form, shape, proportions. I do have some tutorials, but they are very unclear for me, and seems the author/s don't want to explain more.

How to actually make character from start to finish

And i need some help . I am very broke at the moment. But i really want to get the course from Zbrushworkshops, Stylized character from Mike Defeo. Can you one wanna help me?

marcosfd

Nice topic and nice replys, i'm a beginner too and what makes me crazy in zbrush is the perspective sculpting, I really don't know when to use it.

Bokche

Would be nice if you guys, suggest me some Drawing books. I know there are lot of books, but i want some really good. I want to learn everything about Anatomy, proportions,shape forms, etc

PyrZern

http://illustrationage.com/2013/04/02/free-andrew-loomis-art-instruction-downloads/

It might also help if you post images of what you're making/capable of right now. So others can help further and tailor to your specific needs.

skankerzero

Yeah.

Put away Zbrush. Pick up a pencil and learn that stuff first. You're trying to run before you can even crawl.

Bokche

It is hard for me to put away Zbrush. I felt in love with Zbrush, even most of the things i do not understand what i am doing, or how to make it. But i am having fun.

PyrZern

If the fun comes from messing around in ZB, then it might take quite awhile until it starts to look better

Blood, Sweats and Tears, Man.
Them Blood, Sweat, and Tears.

pior

Also : precision matters. Zbrush is great at providing instant-fun results, using things like the clipping curves or the highpolish brush ... but it is irrelevant when it comes to precisely handling the connection and intersection between shapes.

Like here :



As a matter of fact, I do find that maintaining a hard edge on a concave intersection is pretty hard to do in any sculpting package. I think you will be much better off practicing medium polygon modeling first and foremost, relying on hard edges/smoothing groups in order to get that cartoony effect.



Once you master that, it is then quite easy to port the model over to a sculpting program and refine things there.

The irony is that there is a lot of videos out there showing people doing things "straight in Zbrush" ... but more often than not, when played back at 1x speed, many show a lot of tedious back and forth just to get basic things right. Now some artists don't mind this, since there are indeed benefits in being able to do everything in one program. Personally I am not a huge fan of working that way as I find it to be inefficient ; your mileage may vary.

Bokche

Oh yeah, i am learning to model with polys in Maya,but also 2-3 times in a week i am using some time with Zbrush, learning the tools, tricks, techniques etc.

ExcessiveZero

once you understand form and scale this stuff becomes easy enough to estimate.

You aren't looking to do a technical blueprint of a car, which is how I started mind you with perfect orthographic views, but this is where the CG artist part comes in rather than just someone with technical skills to make a copy, its a lot more fluid than that, just think about the shapes, the forms, the scale, the shape the same way the concept artist did when he drew it.

marym

Hi all
I have a similar question.  I'm an illustrator (so yes, I know how to draw), but I want to begin learning 3D for my character designs.  Where do I start first, since I have no clue?  Do I start with Blender (since Maya is too expensive), and then move on to sculpting in Zbrush, or what?  In other words, do I need to model my character designs before I even think about sculpting?  What are the steps I need to take?
I appreciate any help, and thanks!

kanga

Neox said:

good cartoon characters do not need less anatomical knowledge, or artistic experience etc. Before you can break anatomy down to simplification you need to understand how things work. Otherwise your cartoon characters will look shit.

I agree with this one! Although for really super simple characters its more of a question of being good at volumes, which is something you learn with anatomy and the quickest way to get your anatomy up and running is by sculpting studies in zbrush while you have good reference beside you. If your stuff is looking crap to you that is a good thing. It means your eyes are ahead of your skill. Studying anatomy through reading and sculpting is probably the quickest way to get up to speed. Also dont forget to have fun while you are working away at becoming awesome!

PyrZern

MARYM I'd say it depends ?  If you want good 3d foundation, starting from Blender making lowpoly -> sculpt will be better. Because then you'd learn the topology and edges and such.