Home General Discussion

How much to charge client ?

Red Deliallisi
polycounter lvl 3
Offline / Send Message
Red Deliallisi polycounter lvl 3
Hello,

I'm working on 3d visualisations for an interior designer.

So i model and render.

I made a free project for him , not a client, a test, and he was satisfied.
I helped him on a table, modeling , rendering and giving ideas bout the design even though he picked his idea.

Now he has a real client.
I never did this professionally. I have no idea how this paying thing will go. I dont want him to abuse me ...

Is it I who decides the price or him ? I dont think he is my clinet or is he ? As we talked , i'm part of his team ... ( he has some ingineers in his team too. )

Replies

  • aesir
    Offline / Send Message
    aesir polycounter lvl 13
    Estimate how many hours it'll take you, then come up with an hourly wage that sounds fair to yourself.
  • PyrZern
    Offline / Send Message
    PyrZern polycounter lvl 8
    Ehh...... [Your Desired Hourly Rate] x [How long it takes] ?
    What kind of team or setup or contract do you have going on there ?
  • Red Deliallisi
    Offline / Send Message
    Red Deliallisi polycounter lvl 3
    money / hour huh ? How can i calculate that ? I might move , go out ...

    we just communicate online, i met him twice...the work is done online right now cuz his studio is not jet finished, he is just opening... ( he worked from home before, with sketches ).
  • Xendance
    Offline / Send Message
    Xendance polycounter lvl 7
    money / hour huh ? How can i calculate that ? I might move , go out ...

    we just communicate online, i met him twice...the work is done online right now cuz his studio is not jet finished, he is just opening... ( he worked from home before, with sketches ).

    You don't generally go out when you're working.
  • Abidus
    Offline / Send Message
    Abidus polycounter lvl 2
    You don't have tell him "okay, pay me X amount per hour", you just estimate to yourself how much time you think it will take you from start to finish, then you give him a number and tell him that's how much I want.

    As for calculating the hourly rate, a lot of things would go into it. for example:

    1- Your skill level
    2- Your monthly expenses (rent, transportation, groceries, etc.)
    3- Number of people doing the work (on your own, in a team, etc.)
    4- Local economy (people expect to pay different prices for the similar service around the world)

    and so on.

    So, for instance, if you're kinda new/inexperienced, don't have a lot of monthly expenses to worry about, and are working alone, you should consider working at a fairly low rate to build your clientele up, then slowly raise your rate as you take on more business (i.e. the demand for your services goes up).
  • Red Deliallisi
    Offline / Send Message
    Red Deliallisi polycounter lvl 3
    Xendance wrote: »
    You don't generally go out when you're working.

    http://postimg.org/image/c9b9wve7l/
  • Red Deliallisi
    Offline / Send Message
    Red Deliallisi polycounter lvl 3
    Abidus wrote: »
    You don't have tell him "okay, pay me X amount per hour", you just estimate to yourself how much time you think it will take you from start to finish, then you give him a number and tell him that's how much I want.

    As for calculating the hourly rate, a lot of things would go into it. for example:

    1- Your skill level
    2- Your monthly expenses (rent, transportation, groceries, etc.)
    3- Number of people doing the work (on your own, in a team, etc.)
    4- Local economy (people expect to pay different prices for the similar service around the world)

    and so on.

    So, for instance, if you're kinda new/inexperienced, don't have a lot of monthly expenses to worry about, and are working alone, you should consider working at a fairly low rate to build your clientele up, then slowly raise your rate as you take on more business (i.e. the demand for your services goes up).

    Yea im kind of inenxperienced with interior visualisations. If i work from home : money/hour makes no sense. So if i say i worked 20 hours on a project he must trust my word ? He cant check me ...
  • iconoplast
    Offline / Send Message
    iconoplast polycounter lvl 7
    Yea im kind of inenxperienced with interior visualisations. If i work from home : money/hour makes no sense. So if i say i worked 20 hours on a project he must trust my word ? He cant check me ...
    It's a rough guideline for you, not necessarily how you charge the client (though it could be). You estimate how many hours it is going to take you and use that to quote the client a price. For example, if I think a project will take me 10 hours and I expect a $25/hour rate, I would quote $250 as my price.
  • EarthQuake
    Him "checking" how much work you do is irrelevant. The point of estimating how long the task will take, and deciding an hourly rate which you think you are worth is so you can give him a quote on for how much you will charge for the task. Estimated hours * hourly rate = cost per task.

    Your hourly rate will be decided by many factors, including your cost of living, expenses (computer equipment, software, renting a house, heating/electricity bill, etc), taxes (make sure to account for taxes!!!!), your talent/experience level, etc. Only you can decide your hourly rate.

    Usually you will be paid by task, or hourly. By task is more common, so if you under or over estimate how long it will takes, thats either good or bad for you.

    Hourly pay is less common, but in that case you record how much time you actually work on the project (eg, you do not count going out or watching youtube or anything else not work related) and then send an invoice with the hours worked. Yes, the client will have to take your word for this. If you try to screw him over and send an invoice for 4x the amount of work it will likely be obvious, at which point he will no longer want to work with you, and word of this sort of thing tends to spread (3d industry is small and everyone talks).

    So yes, you will be taken at your word, and you will sign a contract which legally binds you to that, and if the client thinks you have filed fraudulent invoices, they could take you to court as well. You will also take the client at their word that they will actually pay you for the work, and they will sign a contract for that as well, again you would have legal rights there too.

    Make sure not to do any work without a contract, and talk to a legal professional if this doesn't make sense to you.
  • Red Deliallisi
    Offline / Send Message
    Red Deliallisi polycounter lvl 3
    EarthQuake wrote: »
    Him "checking" how much work you do is irrelevant. The point of estimating how long the task will take, and deciding an hourly rate which you think you are worth is so you can give him a quote on for how much you will charge for the task. Estimated hours * hourly rate = cost per task.

    Your hourly rate will be decided by many factors, including your cost of living, expenses (computer equipment, software, renting a house, heating/electricity bill, etc), taxes (make sure to account for taxes!!!!), your talent/experience level, etc. Only you can decide your hourly rate.

    Usually you will be paid by task, or hourly. By task is more common, so if you under or over estimate how long it will takes, thats either good or bad for you.

    Hourly pay is less common, but in that case you record how much time you actually work on the project (eg, you do not count going out or watching youtube or anything else not work related) and then send an invoice with the hours worked. Yes, the client will have to take your word for this. If you try to screw him over and send an invoice for 4x the amount of work it will likely be obvious, at which point he will no longer want to work with you, and word of this sort of thing tends to spread (3d industry is small and everyone talks).

    So yes, you will be taken at your word, and you will sign a contract which legally binds you to that, and if the client thinks you have filed fraudulent invoices, they could take you to court as well. You will also take the client at their word that they will actually pay you for the work, and they will sign a contract for that as well, again you would have legal rights there too.

    Make sure not to do any work without a contract, and talk to a legal professional if this doesn't make sense to you.

    There are interior designers who charge money/ m2 in their project. When i talked to him , he said he charges his client per task. Its probable i will get paid per task.

    This contract thing... Do freelancers sign contracts ?
  • EarthQuake
    There are interior designers who charge money/ m2 in their project. When i talked to him , he said he charges his client per task. Its probable i will get paid per task.

    This contract thing... Do freelancers sign contracts ?

    Right, per-task is the most common, but you still want to figure out your hourly rate so you can accurately estimate how much to charge for the task.

    There should be a contract signed by both the client and artist for every freelance job. Generally, the client will provide the contract, but sometimes the artist will make specific request as well (like when payment will be sent, if revisions are included or cost the client extra, etc), which will be agreed upon and added to the contract before work begins. Contracts will also clearly lay out who owns the work when it is completed, generally the artist signs away all rights to the work (so you won't be able to reuse the work in a different job or sell it to someone else later).

    Contracts are signed by both parties, to protect both parties in the event something goes wrong (artist fails to complete asset, or client fails to pay being the most common things that would go wrong). If your client does not provide a contract that would be a sign that they do not know what they are doing.

    Again, I would suggest seeking legal advice from a professional if you do not understand the contract aspect of it. There are some smart people on polycount, but virtually none of them are lawyers and the laws will vary depending on which part of the world you live in.
  • PyrZern
    Offline / Send Message
    PyrZern polycounter lvl 8
    Ehhh... Usually they don't care how many hours it exactly takes to finish the job. If you think you can finish it in 30 hours, and you charge $25/hr and you can do 30 hrs in 5 days. Then you tell him it's gonna be 6 days and it will be $750 for it. If he thinks it's reasonable, then it's fine. It doesn't matter if you actually finish it in 2 days or if it's actually finished in 35 hrs, as long as he gets the finished result on the day you both agreed on.
  • ambershee
    Offline / Send Message
    ambershee polycounter lvl 13
    Protip: when budgeting for time on a fixed-fee project (rather than an hourly or daily rate), try and get your stuff to fall over a weekend, that way if you do fall behind your estimates you can catch up outside of the working week and still deliver to the client's expectations.

    So if you're budgeting for five days starting on a Monday, call it six days. If shit hits the fan, you now get to deliver on Monday (Tuesday morning at a push) instead of end of day Friday.
  • Eric Chadwick
    Good tips in here!

    Also this info might help.
    http://wiki.polycount.com/Freelance
  • Red Deliallisi
    Offline / Send Message
    Red Deliallisi polycounter lvl 3
    I more and more start to feel the need of a contract now because look what he said :

    He said he had another guy before me but that left job because he required to get paid for every polygon he created. Then he told me the members of the team get paid when there is money taken from the client.

    So this means , if i model the project, work 30 hours on it, he shows it to the client and the client refuses it, i dont get paid. There comes my doubt that he might say the client refused it and keep all the money to himself.

    But wether the client accepts or not , the work done by me is still the same...
    On the other side, he cant pay me money from his pocket without winning money from me...
  • ambershee
    Offline / Send Message
    ambershee polycounter lvl 13
    Sounds dodgy, almost like he's trying to subcontract his own 'freelance' work to you.
  • Ruz
    Offline / Send Message
    Ruz polycounter
    Red Deliallisi - that's why I always get paid per hour, not for completed assets.
    Personally I would run mile from this job. Even with a contract, are you gonna chase him to court over a few hundred dollars or whatever it is
  • passerby
  • battlecow
    Offline / Send Message
    battlecow polycounter lvl 9
    I've seen that move at least a 100 times.
    He's trying to fuck you do not work for him, those guys are everywhere better learn to spot them now :)
  • Red Deliallisi
    Offline / Send Message
    Red Deliallisi polycounter lvl 3
    So this is a common move huh ?
    Well i guess i must get burned once to learn...
    Ill finish this project since it is a small one and ill stick it in my portfolio.

    Ill wait for a new project and when he will be very enthusiast saying : " lets start with the walls ". Ill tell him ive worked 50 hours till now and recieved nothing from you.
  • battlecow
    Offline / Send Message
    battlecow polycounter lvl 9
    You've been warned :)
    A guy that says you will not get paid if he does not manage to sell the work he ordered from you is clearly not trustworthy. That is a big NO NO in freelancing. Does a baker only pay his wheat once he has sold his bread?
    And you need a contract it's not even an option it is legaly required, it is the standard newbie move to be afraid to ask the client for a contract because he might lose him. Make a contract with your rates, your rights (copyrights ect) and time limit for payment (30 days), ask the client to sign it before you start any work. If you don't because you are afraid he'll dump you, you're in the wrong business, newcomer or not.

    As for you rates remember you have social security costs, taxes, material costs (computer software ect).Take what you need for a decent living and add these costs.
    But before you do anything set up yourself as a company (thats what a freelance is, a one man company) so that you can actually bill a client. You asking if freelancers sign contracts makes me think you haven't.

    Good luck to you, it's a tough world for architectural visualisers :)
  • EarthQuake
    battlecow wrote: »
    You've been warned :)
    A guy that says you will not get paid if he does not manage to sell the work he ordered from you is clearly not trustworthy. That is a big NO NO in freelancing. Does a baker only pay his wheat once he has sold his bread?
    And you need a contract it's not even an option it is legaly required, it is the standard newbie move to be afraid to ask the client for a contract because he might lose him. Make a contract with your rates, your rights (copyrights ect) and time limit for payment (30 days), ask the client to sign it before you start any work. If you don't because you are afraid he'll dump you, you're in the wrong business, newcomer or not.

    As for you rates remember you have social security costs, taxes, material costs (computer software ect).Take what you need for a decent living and add these costs.
    But before you do anything set up yourself as a company (thats what a freelance is, a one man company) so that you can actually bill a client. You asking if freelancers sign contracts makes me think you haven't.

    Good luck to you, it's a tough world for architectural visualisers :)

    All of this is good advice, except not necessarily the bit about establishing a company. I would suggest anyone just starting out work as a sole proprietor, no use going through the hassle of setting up an LLC if its something that doesn't work out long term.

    But again, seek legal advice from an actual professional, idealy both a tax specialist and an accountant, not just people on polycount.

    You may be required to start up an LLC or equivalent in your country, however, its not a requirement in the US. So its very important to have the relevant information for your country/state/etc.

    There are other good reasons to start an LLC though, if you intend on paying employees it will likely be required, or if you want your work experience to count towards getting a visa in another country it is essential as well. An LLC limits your liability as well (hence the name). http://www.legalzoom.com/llc-guide/llc-sole-proprietor-partnership-comparison.html
  • battlecow
    Offline / Send Message
    battlecow polycounter lvl 9
    You are absolutely right Earthquake, It's required where I live, it's a one man company status with easy taxing and billing. There should something alike in his country. You just should be registered :)
  • Ruz
    Offline / Send Message
    Ruz polycounter
    lol I should have mentioned that I work for a daily rate when I am doing mainly vfx work, for games I sometimes work per milestone, but still work it out at the going rate for the kind of work I am doing

    I generally try to keep the milestones short though
  • ivanzu
    Offline / Send Message
    ivanzu polycounter lvl 8
    Can't you open Bank account which automatically pays taxes to the country when money sets in? No idea how is that kind of account called in English.
  • ambershee
    Offline / Send Message
    ambershee polycounter lvl 13
    I've worked in several countries and have never heard of a magic bank account like that. How does a bank account know what is payment for work and what is not?
  • low odor
    Offline / Send Message
    low odor polycounter lvl 13
    taxes are different from Country to Country...in the US state to state...

    Where I am at the moment..I have to pay School, City, State, and Federal


    I am sure you could set up a checking account that has a certain percentage of deposits go to a savings account...and then set up a quarterly bill pay...but paying taxes like that would get expensive, especially if you fell short of your estimated earnings...I think the only real way to do a hands off approach is to hire an accountant.
  • EarthQuake
    I have a separate bank account where that I use to save money for taxes. Its a high interest Capitol One 360 online account, and I take a % out of every payment I get and save it there. I make sure to over-estimate that % so I always have more saved than I really need. Keeping it in a separate account makes it a lot easier to not think of it as "money you have" and are tempted to spend.
  • ivanzu
    Offline / Send Message
    ivanzu polycounter lvl 8
    ambershee wrote: »
    I've worked in several countries and have never heard of a magic bank account like that. How does a bank account know what is payment for work and what is not?

    That kind of account is open only for freelancing work.Only money that wont be taxed is the one that owner pays in.
  • Red Deliallisi
    Offline / Send Message
    Red Deliallisi polycounter lvl 3
    Hello,

    Im going to drink a coffee with this interior designer do discuss the wage.
    He says to be paid by project a standard price or by percentage later. I think ill go for standard.

    But what should i be aware of , what should i ask him ? He said when we spoke online a sum that was low i think. Maybe he is unaware of the work required or that i spend maybe a thousand hours learning the softwares. I dont say my renders are photorealistic. They are not.

    So I will explain him the pipeline from modeling ,texturing, lighting and rendering.
    ( he just says change the color or make it this material and he propably thinks its automatic ). Im thinking of printing the Vray setting for exampple, all the tabs. Material settings. Make it a big mess on those pages and tell him : Thats what i deal with.


    But if its standard , not all works have the same amount of detail.

    Help me to remind me somethings to ask him so i dont regret after the meeting.
  • Eric Chadwick
    If you don't want to calculate your hourly rate, then I would recommend you start with $25/hour, and convert to your local currency.

    That's a decent low-end international rate for 3d rendering work. The lower end makes sense because you are just starting. As you get better, you can increase your rate.

    You need to estimate how long it takes to create your renders. If it is 2 days per room, then 16 hours * $25 = $400. If it is 3 days, then $600.

    I find it really helps to bring samples of rendering work, and use this to help the client understand how much time (money) it takes to make the different levels of quality.

    Don't get too technical, this doesn't work well in my experience. Depends on the client, but most will just get frustrated by this. Keep it simple when explaining the process, and stop explaining if their attention starts to wander.
  • rino
    Offline / Send Message
    rino polycounter lvl 8
    If you don't want to calculate your hourly rate, then I would recommend you start with $25/hour, and convert to your local currency.

    That's a decent low-end international rate for 3d rendering work. The lower end makes sense because you are just starting. As you get better, you can increase your rate.

    You need to estimate how long it takes to create your renders. If it is 2 days per room, then 16 hours * $25 = $400. If it is 3 days, then $600.

    I find it really helps to bring samples of rendering work, and use this to help the client understand how much time (money) it takes to make the different levels of quality.

    Don't get too technical, this doesn't work well in my experience. Depends on the client, but most will just get frustrated by this. Keep it simple when explaining the process, and stop explaining if their attention starts to wander.


    i disagree, here's why:

    he's from albania, average salary there is around 436USD (wiki). he should charge way less than you are suggesting him to. 25USD per hour is standard for north america and western europe, but for him it's just not. he can get by on minimum wage (10USD/hr) and still be fine. on top of that he's not very experienced so that plays a part too.

    my suggestion would be to go between 10 and 15USD/hr, because that would be realistic for him.
  • PyrZern
    Offline / Send Message
    PyrZern polycounter lvl 8
    Hey, what do we think of this examples ?
    Too low or too high ?
    From http://www.katsbits.com/articles/how-much-should-i-charge-for-freelance-3d-modeling-work.php

    A barrel, box or crate, $50+
    An empty simple warehouse structure, $500+
    Series of map objects, pillars, arches, doorways, $750+
    Small empty 'industrial' level, no map objects, $2,500+
    Larger empty 'industrial' level, no map objects, $5,000+
    A 'city' scape level, no map objects, $5,000+
    Large level including terrain and buildings, no map objects, $10,000+
    Character less than 1000 triangles, rigged, no animation, $800+
    Character less than 2500 triangles, rigged, no animation, $1,500+
    Character less than 5000 triangles, rigged no animation, $2,500+
    Character less than 5000 triangles, rigged with animations, $5,000+
    Content for small virtual world, $2,500+
    Content for a large virtual world, $5,000+
  • Meloncov
    Offline / Send Message
    Meloncov greentooth
    ivanzu wrote: »
    Can't you open Bank account which automatically pays taxes to the country when money sets in? No idea how is that kind of account called in English.

    I've never heard of anything like that. The most you can do here is set up your account to automatically put a certain percentage into a separate account you'd later use to pay taxes.
Sign In or Register to comment.