Portrait Render
polycounter lvl 10
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Hi fellows,
I'm a new member, and this is my 1st post pretty much, I'd like to achieve a decent model of a head by the end of this work.
This is a base mesh I created I plan to export to Mudbox to sculpt on.
Then I plan to bake the highpoly mesh onto this same low-poly version, maybe with a few adjustments to fit properly.
So, yeah, any suggestions & critics are welcome.
sculpt:
Thanks,
Mike.
Hi fellows,
I'm a new member, and this is my 1st post pretty much, I'd like to achieve a decent model of a head by the end of this work.
This is a base mesh I created I plan to export to Mudbox to sculpt on.
Then I plan to bake the highpoly mesh onto this same low-poly version, maybe with a few adjustments to fit properly.
So, yeah, any suggestions & critics are welcome.
sculpt:
Thanks,
Mike.
Replies
Thank you for the tips!
Also, I wanted to ask, would you normally export this mesh to render as is, or always bake onto a lowpoly version 1st?
And if bake, then what is a reasonable poly count the low poly should be, taking that there isn't any limit, this isnt for realtime, at least not this 1st attempt.
Thanks, Mike
I'm working on the eyes of this head right now, and I was wondering how can I make the glossy reflection marked in the image be sharper, like a sharp rectangle rather than a blurry one.
I played with a lot of settings but still can't make it look sharper.
I added an hdri map into the special purpose maps section, it does add extra reflections, but doesn't affect this one, I guess because this one is a real light reflection and not a fake one.
Any ideas?
Thanks,
Mike.
If you use a offline program with real reflections, just do a box with a white self illuminated material , crank up the strenght and place it somewhere so the reflection is where you want
I'm just wondering if it's correct to use a fake reflection like that and disregard the real light?
Also, if I use the hdri image in the environment slot, it keeps the real reflection untouched.
Render of the eye alone, and material settings:
Now I have a different question, something on his right side seems off, I don't know what yet. Any tips on making his right side more appealing?
Thanks,
Mike.
You could add a rim light if you want that studio look. Place a new light so, that only a small contour of the head is affected on the right. Or you may just want to add a colored fill light.
I'm working on a head model, and I getting close to adding hair.
I don't have any fancy plugins, I wanted to ask you guys for tips or tutorials you may be aware of to make decent hair, thanks.
So far I saw this one, which is useful: http://www.3dtotal.com/index_tutorial_detailed.php?id=1658&catDisplay=1&roPos=1&page=7#.U4zsP_mSzCV
and this bruce lee review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58GHhuI9j3I , althoughit was done in maya I think.
I really want to see more stuff.
http://wiki.polycount.com/HairTechnique
This time its for a rendered model though. I guess my obvious approach would be using Hair & Fur?
For real-time, you're likely still stuck with haircards method.
This is my 3rd thread about this head, Idk what's the rules about threas here really, maybe I should be bumping my older threads instead of creating new ones, oh well.
So, I added some hair, and I'm trying to think how can I achieve photo-realism with this.
I'm working on this for quite some time, and it's already hard to grasp what's making it looks non-photo-realistic.
I'm using 3ds max, Fast SSS skin shader. 2k diffuse and dermal maps, and a 4k normal map.
I'm using just the default MR settings, with photometric lights. (FG only).
So, basically I'm looking for some insight and tips, as to how to get to it more realistic.
There's no post on this yet.
Thanks
As to photoreal critique, here are the thing I would say need improvement if you really want to get photoreal:
1 - Anatomy. He has a very short, flat chin, and it comes off a little unnerving. There are people out there who look like this, but its a bit far from statistical normalcy that, with the other elements not looking photoreal, it just looks like bad modeling. Along with his chin, I would say the folds of his eyes are too thick and make them look very heavy.
2 - Hair. The hair is running every direction. It is uniformly colored, thick, and wavy. Variation is key, along with messiness. I can see the parallel strands running together and it distracts my eyes and throws of the reality. The eyebrow strands are also very thick and straight, and the grey ones seem thrown on top. They should be better integrated, and more curvy. All of the hair also needs better thickness falloff. Thinner at the tip, thicker and more black at the base.
3 - Specular. Your specular is actually pretty decent, mostly because you've done well with the microgeometry on the forehead and nose. The stubble (looks like its been drawn in photoshop) though is disturbing the specularity around the mouth and chin. With stubble, you still have specular highlight, but they tend to be more random and hot, since the angles of the skin changes where the root breaks from the face, causing smaller, but brighter, reflections.
4 - The shader. Mostly this breaks down to the SSS. I am not a fan of overblown SSS, but it needs more than you have. You should at least have some red bleeding in the shadows. Try to turn up the prepass rate to 2 (if you haven't) and dial down the prepass blur to .1. Sometimes this helps get a more clean bleeding in the shadow areas. Also, dial up the SSS weight or radius, if your model is made to scale, then a radius of between 1 and 2 should be a good starting point.
Other things:
Eyes are nice but need a tear line. I do not like tear lines that contour the whole eye, I think they are less accurate than a tear line that just contours the lower eyelid.
Pump up the microgeometry a little bit, you're going to lose definition when you add more SSS.
The shirt is very flat, needs a displacement.
Lines on the neck are very even striations. They should look more like the creases on your palms, very short diagonal creases that make up longer lines.
low-profile Rim light to add interest to the hair.
Upper lip is very smooth, needs some modeling detail love.
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Anyways thats all I can think of. Sharing your shader network also helps with the photoreal stuff. Good luck, it just takes forever to tweak things, its like a marathon.
Thanks for the detailed response, I'll try to respond on each point, btw, I really like your study thread
1. I thought pimping and reviews was only for game art, that's why I put this here
critics:
1 - I'm working with a reference (added at the bottom of post), I do think that it's a little off the average face structure, but I really want to manage to achieve photo-realism with this. If you think I got something incorrectly from the ref, which very well might be, please tell me.
2 - His hair as you can see in the ref attached is kind messy, from your comment I understand I should make it thinner overall, and add more value variation (I added a shot of the hair settings as well). It's a pain to set the hair correctly with the standard hair & fur modifier, but I'll push it as much as I can, I think it's a doable job.
3 - I actually reduced the specular on his jaw overall, as it create some smooth looking shiny areas, but I think you might be right, I'll try adding small noisy very shiny spots, unless that's not what you meant. (I did add the stubble in PS, the whole texture is hand painted).
4 - I don't seem to have the prepass setting you're talking about (looking in the shader), or maybe I don't know where it is. (I added a shot of my shader settings).
The scale should be correct, It's around 22 cm for the head height I think.
For the tear line, I really want this effect, but I have no idea how to achieve it without post. Perhaps you know the secret?
Shirt - I'll deal with that later, I know it might affect the whole perception of realism, but I hope to achieve a better result with the organics 1st.
Neck - true, I'll try adding some better folds there. (My high poly sculpt is kinda corrupt, I think because I merged in a layer, so I'm trying to add nm detail using PS, I know not the best way at all)
Can you expand on the rim light? I have a weak back light, and a string front light atm.
I had detail on the upper lip, but I didn't like it, so it was removed, maybe I should try getting some detail in there.
Thanks again!
Shots:
reference:
SSS shader and hair settings:
No, I think you've done pretty well in his likness. My point was more that, unless you acheieve some true realism with everything else, it is going to be pretty hard to sell that anatomy. His anatomy is absolutely possible and not too far outside of norm, but when you couple it with the rest of the uncanny valley, it is not making your job any easier. But no, you did fine with his anatomy. One component to the chin that might help is more wrinkles in the front, and less droop in the lip, like he is pulling his lips tight and thus drawing his chin up, and wrinkling the skin there.
Definitely. I think the big problem is that the hairs themselves are even in terms of thickness and hue, but also that you have hairs running parallel to eachother, which begets the messiniess of the whole thing. The solution I would guess is more generating curves, with more variation in their direction. To get that super messy look. Also, its possible to do some super messy fibermesh and import it as geometry, to aid in making things look a bit more frantic and out of control.
Yeah, that is what I mean. Stubble does not reduce specularity or glossiness in power, only reduces the surface area on which it occurs. This leads to brighter spots of specular between follicles and on the subtle follicle bumps. I can very clearly see the bright spots (hot spots) on the reference.
My suggestions to integrate the stubble more would be too:
1 - Fill the model in zbrush with white, then paint individual stubble hairs in black on the model.
2 - In photoshop, use the new white/black texture to add the stubble in as a very slight darkening. Not too much, stubble doesn't change that point to 100% black, more like a 25% multiply.
3 - As its own texture in a new photoshop document, duplicate the white/black stubble mask. Inverse the top layer, so that the areas where the stubble follicles are are white. Now the original layer, blur it, so that the stubble spots become very small black/grey bumps. Now use 'lighten' on the top layer, to make that the center of each round blurred dot in white. This gives you a nice falloff bump map you can convert to displacement. Each of the individual stubble hair dots become bumps, which eventually lead to a dropoff (the white) so they will look like actual stubble hairs embedded in the skin. Plus it will give you better specular bumps in that area.
My fault, I saw 3dsmax and assumed you were using Vray. Looks like you can drop the unscattered diffuse weight down much lower, maybe past .3. Right now it means you are blocking 80% of your SSS and replacing it with unscattered diffuse, which is why it doesn't seem like there is much SSS going on.
Its pretty easy. In zbrush, mask the lower eyelid where it meets the eye. Then use 'extract', so that you get a small strip of geometry. Inflate it, dynamesh it, and shape it to the junction of the lower eyelid and the eye, where it should be wet.
Import it into 3dsmax and give it a refraction shader.
If you have a backlight its hard for me to see in the hair transmission. Doesn't mean there is anything wrong with what you did, its just either very subtle, or the transmission on their hairs is too weak.
I'm slowly applying your suggestions and I think we're getting there
(hidden main hair for render speed).
Shirt untouched yet.
If you got more gems to point out, I'd be glad to hear. Now I'm trying to figure out more ways to make him look better, and also improve the main hair.
Cheers.
I'm still working on this head model
Anyways, with the tips I got from PC (special thanks to ysalex) I got to a state where I like the head itself. (critics always welcome).
Now I'm trying to achieve realism with the suit, not sure what's missing.
Currently, I'm using a falloff on the diffuse, and a tiled fabric bump map.
I'm really looking for some tips on getting this suit look better, as I google tips myself, although it seems I'm the only one tat can't handle a little shirt
P.S. will be adding hair back after suit is acceptable.
Thanks ahead,
Michael.
(I don't want to inflate the thread with images)
I am indeed struggling with the jaw for some time now, but I agree that the main shape of it is off.
btw, I take it that the jaw is flat on the depth axis? or maybe I'm wrong? the chin is flat at the bottom, but I think that's just how it is, if you look at the reference.
Also, I'm really not sure how to address the upper lip properly without changing the similarity to the reference.
This is a very quick implementation of the tips so far, when I'll be back home I'll refine that: (I messed up some other parts of the upper head by mistake, I'll fix that when I'm home, ignore that
I'd go and reference some bald men more as well. There's a lot of subtle shapes in bald skulls and it's important to capture those when designing a bald character, otherwise their scalp will look flat. At the moment, it seems like his forehead and scalp just merge down into his brow line because of the lighting. He doesn't really seem to have a brow bone.
The suit isn't looking too bad, but it's a little thin looking and the texture makes it look a bit like suede.
I added some fuzziness using hair on the shirt and jacket, but I'm not sure what to do about the thickness. Do you suggest simply thickening the mesh, or do something about the material itself?
I realize that the reference isn't the best for nice head structure, but my goal is to create a good model using this reference in particular, and not just create something that looks good.
He won't be bald in the end, I'll add hair after the suit is looking good.
Got any ideas how to maintain the resemblance to the reference and still make it look realistic?
I looked into his jaw, chin and overall head form a little, and tried to apply your advices. I think it got better. Tell me what you guys think
Cheers.
I agree with Slosh.
I don't know what your reference is but right now he has no chin, which looks really odd.
His expression bother me as well. Is he in pain? Looks like he's gonna cry. Maybe that is the purpose I don't know.
Skin texture is really nice though.
Thanks, ok I decided to give it a try and just try to break out of the uncanny valley. Can you draw over my image the shape of jaw and chin you think he should have? Ofc, i'll look up some reference too.
Doing this I also understood that your proportions were really odd. So with the mouth up, the nose down, (and a chin) it looks more natural in my opinion:
I kind of went the same way, play with my textures a little , reduced iris too.
Tell me what you think.
I made 2 versions, tell me what you think folks
So it looks like switching to displacement was really good for your SSS. Since using displacement instead of normals forces the renderer to consider the micro detail as SSS, you tend to get a much warmer scattering.
It looks like you're using a more saturated red/pink for the SSS, typically this is the scattering you'd see in a younger person, I would suggest using something more yellow and less saturated, and turning up the SSS radius a bit to account for desaturating the scatter color.
You've actually done a pretty good job getting the facial structure. I did a structure/flow (I don't know what to call it) paintover of the reference and your sculpt.
The other guys are calling them anatomy problems because (1) they are a bit, since you haven't exactly nailed the lower jaw and (2) they might not have seen your ref in the other thread. Looking at your ref it's clear that this is not what we'd call standard anatomy.
I told you before I think that because the anatomy is a deviation away from 'standard', unless you absolutely absolutely absolutely nail it, it's going to look 'way off' to people, even if it's pretty close. It's a tough subject, for sure.
I think that the places where your structure is off is affecting the chin area the most. The planes that come off the side of the head from the ears is a little flat, and needs to slope a little more. Also the Nasiolabal fold is too wide, it should shoot for closer to the corners of the mouth, and is currently making the mouth barrel look too wide.
Flatten the bottom of the chin on the side, draw his cleft up closer to the bottom lip, and get rid of that super heavy divit, it's more like a short crease, much more subtle than what you have.
Last, the clothing isn't working well. Clothing tends to have curve and flow to it, otherwise we'd be wearing basically paper, with sharp creases. Take a look at your suit and try to pick out the curves (there are none), then look at the reference, and you'll see the big 'U' up and around the neck.
I tried to convey this all in the paintover, I'm not great with these but it does okay.
Keep it up.
*note to self: don't google "cleft".
I would say thought that simply matching to the lines probably wont help you very much. Modeling to one view will match an object in 3d space to just that, 1 view, so you get a very 2d construction of what should be a 3d object.
Typically what you will get is that center objects, like the nose and eyes, will be correctly placed, but the sides of the head, the shape and placement of the ears, the slopes and planes of the chin/cheeks will be obviously off. One of the big ones (and one of the problems you're having) is that the face is very flat, since you aren't getting any of the sloping planes and roundness of the middle of the face.
My suggestion instead of using my construction lines would be to get more pictures of the subject from 3/4ths (front and back 3/4ths) and side and top.
Take them into photoshop and sketch out the most basic primitives, for instance use a cylinder to show the mouth barrel in each view, use a sphere to show the general shape of the back of the skull, use a very simplistic nose in each view.
This is the best way to practice and get right the actual shape of a head, vs. what most people do, which is use images and try to match only the contour or silhouette of each view. Doing this nets you almost nothing unless you are using about a million shots and matching from each angle, and definitely wont help you on interior shapes/planes.
I do have some 3/4 images, I should post them too. Also, I'll render a 3/4 view of my model too, I'm sure that will help with the critics too.
Here's a render of the front and 3/4 views, maybe the 3/4 will shed some light on him.
Yes, you should use one thread for this character, because it is all about the same subject.
Merging the threads together helps people see what has been suggested already.
Ok, so I made a few changes to him.
I adjusted the eyes to match the ref more, also made the iris smaller (again).
Tweaked the jaw/chin a little, and added some beard to cover up the mess
Tell me what you think guys.
So this is it, Idk if sharpening him up in PS counts as cheating, but since I zoomed out I wanted to bring the details up a little, maybe I should render him in higher res.
I must say I have learned a TON from you guys so thanks for that, and I hope my next realistic face whenever that's going to happen will be even better