you do know you could concept in 3d? how is that not coming from within?
We hadn't talked about 3D concept art at all. We only talked about what we believe defines a good 3D character artists, and my point was, if you have no part in the design, then you are just a 3D modeler (which is fine).
Naturally, if you did 3D concept art, it would be the same thing as 2D.
Granted, horrendously inefficient by comparison, I reckon, but you'd be taking part in the creative process.
This thread is confusing.
To the OP : What exactly is your question ? And what is your goal ?
On a side note : not enjoying sucking at drawing is a perfectly normal thing. As a matter of fact I think it is pretty much impossible to draw anything accurately without having an intricate knowledge of the subject matter. Sure, kids just don't care and are fine with drawing shitty cars and ugly stick figures all day, in an unfiltered manner, following basic visual codes (like : a person has a trunk and 4 limbs ; therefore, drawing a person means drawing a blob and 4 lines sticking out of it). Kids are pretty dumb ! Adults, however, have the awesome advantage of being smarter.
You just have to acknowledge the fact that every time you get that weird sensation in the back of your head telling you, "maaaaaan I suck at drawing this", it means it is time to STOP (after finishing one shitty attempt maybe), drop the pencil, and go research the subject matter. Everybody goes through that without exception ; maybe the only difference is that some people copied stuff earlier on, assimilating visual codes from other artists early, which is a great shortcut. There is an excellent video on the subject on Sycra's channel : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5dyu9y0EV0cSvGtbBtHw_w
I think there is no need to argue the fact that once you become familiar enough with a subject matter (by either drawing it repeatedly or sculpting it repeatedly) you wont have any problem sculpting it. The choice really lies in being smart and efficient in the learning process. Same goes for character design : it doesn't have much to do with imagination really, but more about having a very wide knowledge of the outside world. And its a freaking hard balance to find too, because the more one knows about stuff, the more humble one gets. Which can be a bit petrifying.
Anyways - this all depends on what you are trying to achieve really. So again, please tell us :
What is your goal ?
And it would be preferable to post an image showing something made by another artist, similar to what you want to be able to do. That way we will all be able to talk about it more accurately.
My post isn't about "frustration". It's just as the title suggests. I was just in need of a different approach, as I didn't feel I was making progress with my old one.
That by definition, is frustration.
As for me, I've drawn all my life. Since I was old enough to understand the basic concept of art. Was I any good? I was ok for a kid growing up in a small town. I went to the Art Institute of Dallas and studied there for a bit before dropping out. My 2D skills saw a huge improvement in the span of 1 year. The class I got the most out of was Color Theory. Understanding anatomy and how shapes relate to each other was also very important.
All that being said, my 3D work didn't really improve because of my 2D skills. They helped, but 3D is it's own skillset. My 3D skillset came from working my ass off after work and posting here. Back then you had a very limited amount of polygons for a character, so it was very important to understand how to most effectively use those polygons to create the human form.
2D didn't teach me proper edgeflow. It didn't teach me best practices for uv setup. It didn't teach me how to work with a shader editor. etc. All that knowledge came from practical experience. Making model after model. Working with game engines. Learning from my peers.
So the notion that a good 3D artist has to be good at 2D is absurd. The coincidence that most good 3D character artists are also good 2D artists is because we're just hungry to get better at art. Period. Most of us do have a natural talent for art but we work on our skills non stop because we're obsessed. That level of dedication to your craft is what will make you better. Competing against yourself and improving with every mesh.
Naturally, if you did 3D concept art, it would be the same thing as 2D.
Granted, horrendously inefficient by comparison, I reckon, but you'd be taking part in the creative process.
When I look at their work, I can feel their "extreme" interest in the human form.. and I believe it's clear that they're manifesting what's inside their head. -- That's what I consider art to be.
Doesn't necessarily have to be a specific character design. Could just be an emotion, or something they're feeling, portrayed through a character that might not even be all that significant on it's own.
and you think Yuri's work has no such personal signature ?
may be you are not really seeing the effort he puts behind every piece of work he does, the story behind all the characters, and the passion he puts into executing each of them.
in some cases, some of his work has more personality than some of the other links you posted. it is just a different level of taste. not everything has to be stylized or anime!
This thread is confusing.
To the OP : What exactly is your question ? And what is your goal ?
You just have to acknowledge the fact that every time you get that weird sensation in the back of your head telling you, "maaaaaan I suck at drawing this", it means it is time to STOP (after finishing one shitty attempt maybe), drop the pencil, and go research the subject matter. Everybody goes through that without exception ; maybe the only difference is that some people copied stuff earlier on, assimilating visual codes from other artists early, which is a great shortcut. (for instance : drawing 2D eyes like a specific famous artist, instead of figuring out their own way, which is much much harder but sometimes can take too long.)
There is no need to argue the fact that once you become familiar with a subject matter to that kind of extent, you wont have any problem sculpting it.
Anyways - this all depends on what you are trying to achieve really. So again, tell us : what is your goal ? And it would be preferable to post an image showing something made by another artist, similar to what you want to be able to do. That way we will all be able to talk about it more accurately.
Being 26 is pretty good by the way. I am pretty sure that at this age, one can understand the complexities of visual arts much better than at 10
This post brought a tear to my eye! Thanks. I appreciate this insight.
My questions already been answered, and at this point I'm just responding to people, really lol. I've decided on a strategy.
I'll provide an example of the skill I want. Or examples
From there I think that a good thing to do is to trace back where they are coming from - Right of the bat I am thinking FLCL and Frazetta ... So a good idea would be to read/watch some Fuliculi, and track a stream of Fire and Ice as well as Painting with Fire
From there I think that a good thing to do is to trace back where they are coming from - Right of the bat I am thinking FLCL and Frazetta ... So a good idea would be to read/watch some Fuliculi, and track a stream of Fire and Ice as well as Painting with Fire
I'm going to have to do some googling now, because most of that sounded like jibberish =P
Thanks. That anime does look quite a lot like that character.
I actually watched part of Fire and Ice once, on youtube, but didnt recall the name.
My mind was blown by the animation in it. It made me want to animate so bad.
I sort of get where you're going with this, pior... The inspiration of my inspiration.
But what do you suggest I do once i've observed the "origin".
Mimic the style?
So, none of the great masters started creating "art" right off the bat. They poured hours upon hours into understanding forms, anatomy, perspective, shapes and much, much more. This requires "copying" from reference. Look at human anatomy and draw what you see/sculpt what you see/paint what you see. Art is as much a technical craft as it is a creative craft. It takes hours upon hours of studying nature, anatomy, buildings, surfaces, and more. All the while, you can create that passion. Hell, I'm currently that in the flesh. After I graduated from college, I realized my character skills sucked. So, for the last year I have been making character after character and study after study to get better and better at all the skills and knowledge that one needs for crafting art, and I'm finally getting real close to being able to finally give life back into my art portfolio and try to get a job in the industry. It's taken hours of work, frustration, anger, hatred, despair and much much more to get to that spot for me. And all of that takes dedication to working every single day on applying the skills you are learning to improving. Copying from life is a part of what artists do and it can have as much expression as the artist wants it to have.
Simply put, after finding your inspiration it is okay to start from copying what you see around you etc. Hell, quite a few of the really talented artists around these parts have "copied" from various games and series creating some really kickass fanart. That fanart can have an incredible amount of artistic decisions and expression. Eventually, four, five, maybe ten years down the road you'll have the knowledge and experience to craft things that are unique and passionate, but until then don't be afraid to copy in order to learn.
Hell, quite a few of the really talented artists around these parts have "copied" from various games and series...
Classically trained artists generally spend a good amount of time directly copying the work of the 'old masters'. It's a fairly well established method of learning.
You mention "understanding of form" I think that's exactly what your drawings are lacking and it's a bit odd that you want to become a character artist if you've had so little attention to form in the past. I'm not speaking of studying anatomy, but simply of looking at the world around you in the way that an artist views it. It's as if you haven't had any artistic tendencies for the last 26 years and suddenly decide to become an artist. I wouldn't disagree with the other Polycounters that it's entirely possible to acquire the skill set at this age if you try hard enough, but I wonder how can you be sure this is for you? I mean, I do like doing drawing studies every now and then, but I still wouldn't want to be an artist, so I'm not sure if you can actually keep up all the effort that is required if the end result is all you care about and the process itself isn't to your liking.
You and Pior hit on some great stuff to go a little deeper, I feel like it is important that you not only recognize you need to learn more (already done), but you need to know _what_ you need to learn, being much more specific than "Character art," and simply looking at Frazetta.
It requires a lot more digging than just telling yourself "I want to make that someday!" You need to be able to critically, and objectively look at your work, and your goal, and identify specific things. SPECIFICS is the key here, not "I want to make characters," it needs to be "I don't know how to model a nose." When you have specific problems like that, I feel it is infinitely easier to tackle them and grow. You seem passionate, need to make sure you aren't just looking at things at their face value.
For example, the Frazetta images have very clear anatomy. The drawings you posted of humans do not show a very deep understanding of anatomy. From this, its clear you need to study anatomy. Which parts? Well.. all parts. Start from the top of the body or bottom, inside or dive right into flesh. Do both! Study, collect reference at the library, internet, whatever - and give yourself goal times. Give yourself assignments like "I will draw 140 feet this week" or start by doing extremely accurate models of body parts. Spend a week modelling foot bones. Then start over and make foot muscles. start over again and add flesh. start over again and make another foot, and repeat. Just be careful, if you do 140 drawings or 100 models that aren't based on reference and accurate to your reference, you're not learning how to properly do something - you will damage your skills.
Growing isn't about what you want to achieve, its why are the images you are inspired by better than what you can currently do. Answering that question truthfully, in a non-defeatist way ("they're better than me" or "I suck" are not acceptable answers to that question ) will allow you to see exactly where you need to grow, as well as give you a more attentive eye to your work.
How far someone without drawing can go? But to focus entirely on Modeling and Zbrush? For example i know Jesse Sandifer Senior Character modeler at Blur don't draw, even wgen he started didn't draw at all, he told me that.
You mention "understanding of form" I think that's exactly what your drawings are lacking and it's a bit odd that you want to become a character artist if you've had so little attention to form in the past. I'm not speaking of studying anatomy, but simply of looking at the world around you in the way that an artist views it. It's as if you haven't had any artistic tendencies for the last 26 years and suddenly decide to become an artist. I wouldn't disagree with the other Polycounters that it's entirely possible to acquire the skill set at this age if you try hard enough, but I wonder how can you be sure this is for you? I mean, I do like doing drawing studies every now and then, but I still wouldn't want to be an artist, so I'm not sure if you can actually keep up all the effort that is required if the end result is all you care about and the process itself isn't to your liking.
Great insight and it's sort of what I've always had in mind, I've just had trouble putting faith in it because no ones ever suggested that I do it this way before...
In fact, my instructor at Gnomon Online (Ron Lemen) discouraged the method, and I decided I was just going to do it "my" way (I put quotes because Im clearly not the first to have drawn the conclusion)
Breaking everything up into smaller parts and repeating the process of creating them always made sense to me. Small, quick, efficient studies. And that's what I'm going to do, but because of some of the responses i received in this thread, I'm also going to just let loose, artistically, and develop some reason to enjoy drawing.
It can be really painful when failure is pretty much inevitable.. but without the fail factor, I seems you can approach drawing more like a child, and just enjoy your ability to put marks on paper. Or in this case, "on screen" lol.
How far someone without drawing can go? But to focus entirely on Modeling and Zbrush? For example i know Jesse Sandifer Senior Character modeler at Blur don't draw, even wgen he started didn't draw at all, he told me that.
The works on his page there are really cool But could use more information.
He mentions digital painting in a couple of his images.
He paints the hair on his characters and the backgrounds, so he clearly has 2D skills.
ok so you need to put in a lot more miles before your 2d is solid that much is certain, but you mention that you are a solid 3D modeller, show your wares man, and we can tell you more honestly how close you are to the character gig that you are chasing...
At this point I wouldn't get so caught up in the "I need to be an artist" thing...if you do make it as a character artist chances are you will be a production monkey for the first few years and may have a lot less artistic freedom than you think. Develop your concepting skills for sure, but dont let a lack of them hold you back.
ok so you need to put in a lot more miles before your 2d is solid that much is certain, but you mention that you are a solid 3D modeller, show your wares man, and we can tell you more honestly how close you are to the character gig that you are chasing...
At this point I wouldn't get so caught up in the "I need to be an artist" thing...if you do make it as a character artist chances are you will be a production monkey for the first few years and may have a lot less artistic freedom than you think. Develop your concepting skills for sure, but dont let a lack of them hold you back.
Posted 3D works earlier, but i'll attach them again
I'm not looking for a job as an artist. Zero interest in working for anyone, or on any projects that aren't my own.
I simply have a lot of visions in my head that I want to manifest, and game ideas I want to pursue.
Here, have some more. Guess this is a fairly accurate portrayal of my current modeling skill.
I see your stuff. You want to be a character artist? Forget art style. Forget what makes other artists styles cool or not. LEARN ANATOMY.
The only thing that will be universal and help you in the long run nothing else. Learn posing. Learn Dynamic poses. Learn to draw or sculpt your character in any action possible. At the base of all this in anatomy its the guide book to characters. Amateurs should start with anatomy. learn to draw nudes in any shape or form and you can put clothes on them later. Clothes I have started to understand are more aesthetic. Even to make clothes believable you need to know anatomy.
Get a book, download a video. You don't want someone to teach you to draw two lines for the lips. you want someone to teach you the muscles underneath and areas of fat. Even the scifi robot you saw has anatomy. Frazette was a master at anatomy. You need to be able to look at people from the point of view of bones, muscles, fat and skin. Find what ever resources you want to learn it.
What most people how want to know your skill will ask you.
What Stan Lee will ask you.
Don't try to find simple approaches. This is the best approach. Da Vinci did it. Michelangelo did it. Rubens did it. All the great masters did it. Now you do it.
@iconoplast: That was essentially what I was trying to point out. Did I word it confusingly or am I misunderstanding?
Maybe slightly confusingly? It's not that I thought you were ignoring or avoiding that point. How I read what you wrote, though, seemed to emphasize more of using reference in general. My goal was to state explicitly that direct copying has been used and encouraged for centuries and the quote was meant more to indicate what I was talking about than directing it at you. I should have been more clear myself. My apologies.
Chrome is giving a malware alert when going to that page :O
That happened once before. Godaddy said someone had been using my webspace to host ads or something <_< But it's suppose to be fixed now. The warning page isnt suppose to pop up, I mean. Doesn't for me, on firefox.
Haha, I guess I'm sorta glad I didn't first notice this thread back on page one.
This guy definitely has the ability to make realistic busts.
But, in my opinion, being a good character artist isn't just about being able to look at something at model it. That would make him a good modeler... which is different.
Aside from one piece in his portfolio, none of his works suggest any level of creativity.
And I suspect the creative piece is based on a concept, but that's just an assumption.
I also feel that he lacks the ability to create believable gestures, based on a couple of his posed models.
Perhaps he has other work that I havent seen, that better portrays his ability, but based on the portfolio alone, I feel he could greatly benefit from drawing, and I dont consider him a good artist. But, he does seem to be a good "modeler".
>in my opinion, being a good character artist isn't just about being able to look at something at model it.
This is almost the definition of a good character artist. You seem to be confusing a character artist for a concept artist. Character artists take concepts and translate them, rarely do we do the design. So if we're gonna have a discussion, might as well get the terms right, so that we all know what we are trying to say.
I'm just going to ignore the rest and get on with my reply.
First, I would never go out of my way to call myself 'creative' or 'an artist'. I think that labels are far more important to beginners, such as yourself, than to people who have been working at 'art' for any amount of time.
When you come into a new skill, like you are doing now, you know very little about it, other than what you have seen. Because you know nothing, you are left essentially imitating what you expect or believe an artist to be. But without proper understanding, your impression of 'artists' and 'art' are essentially worthless - that is basically what the definition of novice or beginner is: a person with a very superficial understanding of a subject.
It would be like us looking at a guy meditating, and trying to understand what he is thinking. If we wanted to meditate ourselves, we would have to sit down and imitate his facial expressions and posture, maybe the noise he makes, but we wouldn't be meditating, we would just be sitting on the floor, making faces and humming. We are novices, and for us, our entire understanding of what this man is doing is superficial, all we know is what we immediately see.
For us to then enter a conversation about what is and what is not meditation - who is and who is not doing it correctly - would be ridiculous, because our understanding of the whole idea is based on extremely limited knowledge. I think one thing that beginners make in general, not just in art but in learning anything, is believing that their initial assumptions are more insightful than they actually are. This leads amateurs and beginners to spend a lot more time talking than learning, and is often an impediment to improving.
Art is something different to every person. Some people are into the creative aspects, some people are more into the technical aspects - anatomy, technique, medium, etc. I would say that for a person who is just getting interested in art, who is sitting on the floor, making faces and humming, you're not really in a place to say what is art and artistry, and what isn't.
But my prediction would be that by the time you have a deeper understanding of art, the labels you are very keen to slap on things and people will be a lot less important to you. 'Art' will mean something much different and personal than it does now, and you will be much less inclined to put people and disciplines in boxes the way you are doing, because you will understand that there is no point in labeling what is essentially an internal process that means such different things to different people.
here's his signature? The visual representation of his personality? I don't call that art. Therefore, I wouldn't count him among artists.
Personally I tend to look at art as a series of decisions, those decisions culminating in a finished piece. When you say 'signature' you are referring to that decision making process, which, over several pieces, can result in a general style or similarities that we associate with specific artists.
From your much more narrow viewpoint of the situation, you might say that I don't have a 'signature'. I see a lot of my own personality and decision making in them. Context matters as well. There are a number of good reasons that I keep my work to smaller, easily digestible scenes/pieces. Complexity of CG and big scenes being part of it, the fact that I use my personal work to drive my freelance is another, and the way I perceive a realistic future as well (since most of my work is sci-fi). Originally I wrote a couple paragraphs here about choices, but I chose to remove them because I think it distracts from what I am trying to say.
In the end, I would never say that I am a great artist, because I am not. You already pointed out some of my problems, like my poses aren't dynamic enough, but you also shouldn't treat people like they are done learning. I have an absolute truck-load of flaws that I work everyday to get better at. I have no interest as labeling myself an artist or not, but I do have a problem with the kid on the floor humming and making faces telling other people that they don't know how to meditate.
You are concentrating on all the wrong things, like medium. It is not 2d vs. 3d. Fantastic artists who have no crossover exist in both categories.
Art is an internal thing. Because you are new to it, you've taken the wrong lessons from the way you perceive things to be, rather than the way things actually are. Your observations are superficial, and have led you to some conclusions that are false at best, and at worst might represent future blocks to your improvement.
Like I said above in the analogy about the meditator, it's not rare you or other beginners do this, but you are doing it quite publicly.
lunatorra, funnily enough I'd advise you to study Yuri's mindset regarding art, artists, and improvement in general. I have seen him improve drastically over these past several years, and it's been very inspiring (even to me, as a 2D focused artist).
I know myself, when I really started to improve was when I took titles and expectations out of the mix, and focused simply on my work as a craft. As a subject of study not unlike learning a new language, or code, or anything else. Don't let your views of what you think is "art" and what's not get in the way of progress, because acknowledging how little you know is KEY to getting better. An absolute necessity. Realizing that you know even less than you thought you did previously is something that happens consistently as you get better, and is in fact something that probably never stops happening (so long as you're aiming to keep improving!).
The core concepts of improving your art are the same regardless of medium. Work hard, seek out and learn from failure, don't forget to study! Try to see what's actually there, not simply what you want to be there. The world itself can be your teacher, if you let it.
In the end, I would never say that I am a great artist, because I am not. You already pointed out some of my problems, like my poses aren't dynamic enough, but you also shouldn't treat people like they are done learning. I have an absolute truck-load of flaws that I work everyday to get better at. I have no interest as labeling myself an artist or not, but I do have a problem with the kid on the floor humming and making faces telling other people that they don't know how to meditate.
Interesting post!
However, I'm just going to point out that I made it very clear that my beliefs are opinions, and as such they shouldnt really matter to you at all, as the superior, more-experienced individual...
I'm not going around saying "Hey you guys are stupid, and this is what art is REALLY about" -- no... I'm explaining what art is to ME, just like you did.
I use labels because they help me distinguish between different types of people, and in a studio environment you'd definitely be considered a "character artist", but I am using the words a bit more literally in order to separate the two types of individuals we were discussing.
Will my view on art change as a pursue it? Perhaps. But, I will always be concerned with separating people by the use of terminology. I like to be organized, and efficient, which is why I'm struggling with 2D art. -- A class environment would definitely be better for me, but is currently not an option, otherwise, I firmly believe a person with my personality type should be in one.
I respect your view of what an artist is and isn't, and the "decisions" bit IS pretty interesting, I will admit. But it's hard for me to see your post as constructive, because you come off as extremely bias. --- You clearly value the title of "artist", in my opinion, but, out of respect of the title, you refuse to consider yourself one lol... which means you agree with me. <_< and simply refuse to accept the fact that a newbie is judging you, whether they are right or wrong.
Using your experience alone to express that your logic is superior is an ugly tactic.
It proves that you firmly believe you know something, and no longer consider it just an opinion, otherwise, I doubt you would have worded your message the way you did. Which means, it's actually more likely "you" who isn't aware that there's much more to learn about the path you've chosen. I feel I have very openly accepted that fact, and if you worried less about defending yourself, you could have seen that too.
Your post is well-written, but ultimately serves no purpose, as you were too interested in defending yourself, and only ended up exposing how you truly feel, by mistake, it seems. Dont say my beliefs are worthless THEN actively try to convince me that you belong under my "artist" category.
I kinda doubt that you could have missed the point of my post any more wildly.
>However, I'm just going to point out that I made it very clear that my beliefs are opinions, and as such they shouldnt really matter to you at all, as the superior, more-experienced individual...
What I wrote was: Because you are new to it, you've taken the wrong lessons from the way you perceive things to be, rather than the way things actually are. Your observations are superficial, and have led you to some conclusions that are false at best, and at worst might represent future blocks to your improvement.
I am not telling you that I dislike your opinion because it harms me, I hold your opinion in no value as you said, the reason I bothered replying to you was to help you, to show you why fixating on these superficial concerns are distracting at best, and will eventually block you up at worst.
>You clearly value the title of "artist", in my opinion, but, out of respect of the title, you refuse to consider yourself one lol..
I value the concept of art, but nowhere did I state that I desire the label 'artist'. I don't call myself an artist because I really do not care about that labeling. To my mind everyone is an artist. When my 2 year old is doodling with crayons she is making art. But the problem comes in with you, who is going around trying to label this person as an artist and this person as not one. This type of art as art, this other type as not art. So while I can say that having the title of artist means nothing to me, the ego and misconception required for another person to give me that label or not, does bother me, only because it's a pretty immature way to treat art in general, not because it offends me in particular.
>It proves that you firmly believe you know something, and no longer consider it just an opinion
Yes. I firmly believe that people shouldn't try to put boundaries on other peoples 'art', that's all I believe in specific. I don't, and I don't think other people should.
>and simply refuse to accept the fact that a newbie is judging you, whether they are right or wrong.
Lets be clear, if you have valid points to make, I will take them on board any day. You pointed out my lack of dynamic posing, which is a good observation on your part, I would never make any qualms about it, and if I thought you were wrong I would either ask you to explain further, or I would try to figure out where that is coming from. If you don't believe me, look up my anatomy thread. I do no arguing, I take crits from hundreds of people, and I get better because of it. But when you take that critique further, from 'he is bad at posing', to 'therefore he is not an artist', I take offense.
And I do not take offense in the 'BUT DAD I want the artist label!' kind of way, I take offense in the way where I think you are very silly for ever believing that there is some skill point where someone you believe is a non-artist can finally say "I've made it!". It's silly. Ask any of your 2d or 3d heros what skills they need to improve on and you will get a long list. That is why they are good artists. Because they know where their shortcomings are and they strive every day to improve. That is what I try to do as well.
>Using your experience to express that your logic is superior is an ugly tactic.
I never argued that I was better at cg stuff than you, and thus my opinion = better. My opinion is that your trying to stuff all of these things into boxes, and make objective observations on extremely subjective grounds, shows immaturity. When I say something like:
"But my prediction would be that by the time you have a deeper understanding of art, the labels you are very keen to slap on things and people will be a lot less important to you,"
What I really mean is that regardless of whether or not you get any better at art, the process of pouring countless hours of work into a skillset, plus time, will most likely make you a more mature individual, and with that maturity will come a better understanding.
>Which means, it's actually more likely "you" who isn't aware that there's much more to learn about the path you've chosen. I feel I have very openly accepted that fact, and if you worried less about defending yourself, you could have seen that too.
Your post is well-written, but ultimately serves no purpose, as you were too interested in defending yourself, and only ended up exposing how you truly feel, by mistake, it seems.
And this is just silly pop-psychology/overreaching.
"Because you are new to it, you've taken the wrong lessons from the way you perceive things to be" this suggests that you believe you hold the superior perspective, without doubt., as well as many other things.
"the ego and misconception required for another person to give me that label or not, does bother me," this suggests that titles do mean something to you, otherwise you wouldn't care which title you, or whoever, was being given. I made it clear that I didn't hold "artist" in any greater value over "modeler".. They're just words. -- If it were my ego getting out of control, i would have been more like you and presented things as fact... I wouldnt have bothered ensuring that the reader knew that one wasnt better than the other, in my view.
In other words, that's likely jealousy, on your part. You dont want me to get away with "it", just because.
It makes no sense to me, your original post.... You say my opinion is worthless, because of my inexperienced but acknowledge that I've pointed out "true" things regarding your work, which is contradictory. -- But the real question would be, why even go out of your way to say things like " you're not really in a place to say what is art and artistry, and what isn't." --- This doesnt help me lol. This is just like an adult, saying to a kid "you'll understand when you're older" in order to express superiority by which the kid cant currently comprehend, which is just insulting for no reason.
Don't confuse my statements. I mean I'm sure you read the message that you're referring to when you said "But when you take that critique further, from 'he is bad at posing', to 'therefore he is not an artist', I take offense."
I never said this. My primary focus was clearly on the fact that there's no expression... and you even quoted one of the statements from that post lol.. The posing just suggested that you could benefit from drawing, and that it would part of the reason I dont consider you a GOOD artist. I said all that stuff.
You dont even know what you're offended over.
And how can you take offense if you dont care about labels man?
Contradictions galore
"Because you are new to it, you've taken the wrong lessons from the way you perceive things to be" this suggests that you believe you hold the superior perspective, without doubt., as well as many other things.
"the ego and misconception required for another person to give me that label or not, does bother me," this suggests that titles do mean something to you, otherwise you wouldn't care which title you, or whoever, was being given. I made it clear that I didn't hold "artist" in any greater value over "modeler".. They're just words. -- If it were my ego getting out of control, i would have been more like you and presented things as fact... I wouldnt have bothered ensuring that the reader knew that one wasnt better than the other, in my view.
In otherwise, that's likely jealousy, on your part. You dont want me to get away with "it", just because.
Haha, no, it's because I think it's a stupid thing to do.
It makes no sense to me, your original post.... You say my opinion is worthless, because of my inexperienced but acknowledge that I've pointed out "true" things regarding your work, which is contradictory.
Again, no. I said your opinion of what is an is not art is worthless. I said and believe that because you're trying to make objective observations out of completely subjective information. I never said your opinions otherwise are bad, since you are making subjective observations on objective material. You can see my work has poor dynamics in the pose and say, "hey, to me your posing is poor", but you cannot say "you are not an artist!"
You dont even know what you're offended over.
And how can you take offense if you dont care about labels man?
Contradictions galore
Here, let my try my hand at rewriting (what seemed to be) your intended message.
"I feel like you think you know a bit more about art than you really do. You could probably benefit from experience, as it tends to expose a lot of things about the path we've all chosen, and provide a more-developed view of 'art' and all the things that we do.
Your opinion means something to me, as you pointed out things i've seen in my work myself. However, I do not appreciate someone trying to take away my ability to call myself an artist. It's rather insulting, as my view of what an artist is, is entirely different.
[Explain Decision stuff]
But ultimately, you shouldnt spend so much time thinking about what art IS. You should focus on MAKING art."
Again, no. I said your opinion of what is an is not art is worthless. I said and believe that because you're trying to make objective observations out of completely subjective information. I never said your opinions otherwise are bad, since you are making subjective observations on objective material. You can see my work has poor dynamics in the pose and say, "hey, to me your posing is poor", but you cannot say "you are not an artist!"
You do realize you just repeated what I just said. I could have structured my sentence differently, but the context suggests that you dont value my opinion regarding art.
The gesture bit was only used to suggest that you could benefit from drawing lol. I explained that. Why did you bring it up again? I dont understand.
You're not so good at being "done".
Anyway, that was a proper use of an hour.
I'm going to assume you'll try harder to be "done" this time and bid you farewell.
Your work is nice. I believe you had to work hard to get where you are, so don't get me wrong. I would love to have your skill.
Even though you were mostly responding in your defense, I believe you have a genuine desire to help, somewhere deep down. So thanks
Lunatorra, one issue I am seeing with your posts is that you come off as quite inconsiderate. Read what Ysalex has said a bit more carefully because he makes some very good points that you seem to be overlooking.
Aggressively making claims about a subject matter while lacking basic intermediate level competency is hardly a good approach to have when seeking growth. Just because the subject matter is art it does not mean every opinion is just as valid as the next.
Lunatorra, one issue I am seeing with your posts is that you come off as quite inconsiderate. Read what Ysalex has said a bit more carefully because he makes some very good points that you seem to be overlooking.
Aggressively making claims about a subject matter while lacking basic intermediate level competency is hardly a good approach to have when seeking growth. Just because the subject matter is art it does not mean every opinion is just as valid as the next.
I've read his post a couple times and feel it was riddled with insecurity, as a result of the statement I made, not expecting him to actually read it (someone else brought him up)
Are there things to take away from what he managed to express? Yes. But I dont feel it compensates for what seems to be a defense attempt, masked as a "helping hand".
Endless contradictions give it all away, in my opinion. But, what do you feel like i've missed?
You're not so good at being "done".
Anyway, that was a proper use of an hour.
I'm going to assume you'll try harder to be "done" this time and bid you farewell.
lunatorra...I suggest that you get off the internet for a while and put that time in to develop your skills....by sitting here and arguing with Yuri, (a guy that I respect for his ability to improve his own skills, while always sharing with others) you are doing nothing positive for your future development. Your 3D skills are ok at best, and i think that polycount could be a great resource for your learning if you just chilled out a bit y'know?
lunatorra, you're either a troll or you're suffering from a serious case of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
you've done nothing but belittle hard working ARTISTS, claiming to know what an artist is, what a good artist is, and what makes people good or bad at what they do. but here's the thing.
EVERY piece of work you've shown is average at best, and some of them are seriously sub-par. you claim to be a freelance artist, but i can't for the life of me think of any serious client who would hire you based on the work you've shown.
this thread needs to be locked, it's an insult to polycount that this guy is even allowed to think here let alone post.
lunatorra, you're either a troll or you're suffering from a serious case of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
you've done nothing but belittle hard working ARTISTS, claiming to know what an artist is, what a good artist is, and what makes people good or bad at what they do. but here's the thing.
EVERY piece of work you've shown is average at best, and some of them are seriously sub-par. you claim to be a freelance artist, but i can't for the life of me think of any serious client who would hire you based on the work you've shown.
this thread needs to be locked, it's an insult to polycount that this guy is even allowed to think here let alone post.
Seriously? How many of you are there? <_<
Attack after attack.
You are doing what the guy just before you was trying to do (and failed to do).
Take me off some imaginary high horse i'm apparently on.
I only showed my 3D work to express my skill level AT THE REQUEST OF OTHERS and "never" even HINTED that I was a beastin' 3D modeler lol. Not once... But in your desperate attempt to bring me down, you attack me in any way you can.
What's next? Are you going to tell me I have big ears?
Replies
We hadn't talked about 3D concept art at all. We only talked about what we believe defines a good 3D character artists, and my point was, if you have no part in the design, then you are just a 3D modeler (which is fine).
Naturally, if you did 3D concept art, it would be the same thing as 2D.
Granted, horrendously inefficient by comparison, I reckon, but you'd be taking part in the creative process.
To the OP : What exactly is your question ? And what is your goal ?
On a side note : not enjoying sucking at drawing is a perfectly normal thing. As a matter of fact I think it is pretty much impossible to draw anything accurately without having an intricate knowledge of the subject matter. Sure, kids just don't care and are fine with drawing shitty cars and ugly stick figures all day, in an unfiltered manner, following basic visual codes (like : a person has a trunk and 4 limbs ; therefore, drawing a person means drawing a blob and 4 lines sticking out of it). Kids are pretty dumb ! Adults, however, have the awesome advantage of being smarter.
You just have to acknowledge the fact that every time you get that weird sensation in the back of your head telling you, "maaaaaan I suck at drawing this", it means it is time to STOP (after finishing one shitty attempt maybe), drop the pencil, and go research the subject matter. Everybody goes through that without exception ; maybe the only difference is that some people copied stuff earlier on, assimilating visual codes from other artists early, which is a great shortcut. There is an excellent video on the subject on Sycra's channel :
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5dyu9y0EV0cSvGtbBtHw_w
I think there is no need to argue the fact that once you become familiar enough with a subject matter (by either drawing it repeatedly or sculpting it repeatedly) you wont have any problem sculpting it. The choice really lies in being smart and efficient in the learning process. Same goes for character design : it doesn't have much to do with imagination really, but more about having a very wide knowledge of the outside world. And its a freaking hard balance to find too, because the more one knows about stuff, the more humble one gets. Which can be a bit petrifying.
Anyways - this all depends on what you are trying to achieve really. So again, please tell us :
What is your goal ?
And it would be preferable to post an image showing something made by another artist, similar to what you want to be able to do. That way we will all be able to talk about it more accurately.
That by definition, is frustration.
As for me, I've drawn all my life. Since I was old enough to understand the basic concept of art. Was I any good? I was ok for a kid growing up in a small town. I went to the Art Institute of Dallas and studied there for a bit before dropping out. My 2D skills saw a huge improvement in the span of 1 year. The class I got the most out of was Color Theory. Understanding anatomy and how shapes relate to each other was also very important.
All that being said, my 3D work didn't really improve because of my 2D skills. They helped, but 3D is it's own skillset. My 3D skillset came from working my ass off after work and posting here. Back then you had a very limited amount of polygons for a character, so it was very important to understand how to most effectively use those polygons to create the human form.
2D didn't teach me proper edgeflow. It didn't teach me best practices for uv setup. It didn't teach me how to work with a shader editor. etc. All that knowledge came from practical experience. Making model after model. Working with game engines. Learning from my peers.
So the notion that a good 3D artist has to be good at 2D is absurd. The coincidence that most good 3D character artists are also good 2D artists is because we're just hungry to get better at art. Period. Most of us do have a natural talent for art but we work on our skills non stop because we're obsessed. That level of dedication to your craft is what will make you better. Competing against yourself and improving with every mesh.
often times I can concept in 3d faster than 2d.
Zbrush concepting is also fast.
and you think Yuri's work has no such personal signature ?
may be you are not really seeing the effort he puts behind every piece of work he does, the story behind all the characters, and the passion he puts into executing each of them.
in some cases, some of his work has more personality than some of the other links you posted. it is just a different level of taste. not everything has to be stylized or anime!
This post brought a tear to my eye! Thanks. I appreciate this insight.
My questions already been answered, and at this point I'm just responding to people, really lol. I've decided on a strategy.
I'll provide an example of the skill I want. Or examples
From there I think that a good thing to do is to trace back where they are coming from - Right of the bat I am thinking FLCL and Frazetta ... So a good idea would be to read/watch some Fuliculi, and track a stream of Fire and Ice as well as Painting with Fire
I'm going to have to do some googling now, because most of that sounded like jibberish =P
[apply reading glasses]
FLCL :
Frazetta :
Vintage Japanese toy robots :
Dutch masters :
Thanks. That anime does look quite a lot like that character.
I actually watched part of Fire and Ice once, on youtube, but didnt recall the name.
My mind was blown by the animation in it. It made me want to animate so bad.
I sort of get where you're going with this, pior... The inspiration of my inspiration.
But what do you suggest I do once i've observed the "origin".
Mimic the style?
lol that's crazy. There's no telling how far back I technically could go!
Simply put, after finding your inspiration it is okay to start from copying what you see around you etc. Hell, quite a few of the really talented artists around these parts have "copied" from various games and series creating some really kickass fanart. That fanart can have an incredible amount of artistic decisions and expression. Eventually, four, five, maybe ten years down the road you'll have the knowledge and experience to craft things that are unique and passionate, but until then don't be afraid to copy in order to learn.
You mention "understanding of form" I think that's exactly what your drawings are lacking and it's a bit odd that you want to become a character artist if you've had so little attention to form in the past. I'm not speaking of studying anatomy, but simply of looking at the world around you in the way that an artist views it. It's as if you haven't had any artistic tendencies for the last 26 years and suddenly decide to become an artist. I wouldn't disagree with the other Polycounters that it's entirely possible to acquire the skill set at this age if you try hard enough, but I wonder how can you be sure this is for you? I mean, I do like doing drawing studies every now and then, but I still wouldn't want to be an artist, so I'm not sure if you can actually keep up all the effort that is required if the end result is all you care about and the process itself isn't to your liking.
It requires a lot more digging than just telling yourself "I want to make that someday!" You need to be able to critically, and objectively look at your work, and your goal, and identify specific things. SPECIFICS is the key here, not "I want to make characters," it needs to be "I don't know how to model a nose." When you have specific problems like that, I feel it is infinitely easier to tackle them and grow. You seem passionate, need to make sure you aren't just looking at things at their face value.
For example, the Frazetta images have very clear anatomy. The drawings you posted of humans do not show a very deep understanding of anatomy. From this, its clear you need to study anatomy. Which parts? Well.. all parts. Start from the top of the body or bottom, inside or dive right into flesh. Do both! Study, collect reference at the library, internet, whatever - and give yourself goal times. Give yourself assignments like "I will draw 140 feet this week" or start by doing extremely accurate models of body parts. Spend a week modelling foot bones. Then start over and make foot muscles. start over again and add flesh. start over again and make another foot, and repeat. Just be careful, if you do 140 drawings or 100 models that aren't based on reference and accurate to your reference, you're not learning how to properly do something - you will damage your skills.
Growing isn't about what you want to achieve, its why are the images you are inspired by better than what you can currently do. Answering that question truthfully, in a non-defeatist way ("they're better than me" or "I suck" are not acceptable answers to that question
I do this every day still, gotta keep sharp
Great insight
In fact, my instructor at Gnomon Online (Ron Lemen) discouraged the method, and I decided I was just going to do it "my" way (I put quotes because Im clearly not the first to have drawn the conclusion)
Breaking everything up into smaller parts and repeating the process of creating them always made sense to me. Small, quick, efficient studies. And that's what I'm going to do, but because of some of the responses i received in this thread, I'm also going to just let loose, artistically, and develop some reason to enjoy drawing.
It can be really painful when failure is pretty much inevitable.. but without the fail factor, I seems you can approach drawing more like a child, and just enjoy your ability to put marks on paper. Or in this case, "on screen" lol.
I took a gander at his work. This is him, yeah?
http://sandpiper.cgsociety.org/
The works on his page there are really cool
He mentions digital painting in a couple of his images.
He paints the hair on his characters and the backgrounds, so he clearly has 2D skills.
Did he use concept art?
At this point I wouldn't get so caught up in the "I need to be an artist" thing...if you do make it as a character artist chances are you will be a production monkey for the first few years and may have a lot less artistic freedom than you think. Develop your concepting skills for sure, but dont let a lack of them hold you back.
Posted 3D works earlier, but i'll attach them again
I'm not looking for a job as an artist. Zero interest in working for anyone, or on any projects that aren't my own.
I simply have a lot of visions in my head that I want to manifest, and game ideas I want to pursue.
I see your stuff. You want to be a character artist? Forget art style. Forget what makes other artists styles cool or not. LEARN ANATOMY.
The only thing that will be universal and help you in the long run nothing else. Learn posing. Learn Dynamic poses. Learn to draw or sculpt your character in any action possible. At the base of all this in anatomy its the guide book to characters. Amateurs should start with anatomy. learn to draw nudes in any shape or form and you can put clothes on them later. Clothes I have started to understand are more aesthetic. Even to make clothes believable you need to know anatomy.
Get a book, download a video. You don't want someone to teach you to draw two lines for the lips. you want someone to teach you the muscles underneath and areas of fat. Even the scifi robot you saw has anatomy. Frazette was a master at anatomy. You need to be able to look at people from the point of view of bones, muscles, fat and skin. Find what ever resources you want to learn it.
What most people how want to know your skill will ask you.
What Stan Lee will ask you.
Don't try to find simple approaches. This is the best approach. Da Vinci did it. Michelangelo did it. Rubens did it. All the great masters did it. Now you do it.
Can't view your attachments for some reason. Try hosting them somewhere and use IMG tags.
I just went ahead and made a quick portfolio using my webspace lol.
http://studentofmayhem.com/
That happened once before. Godaddy said someone had been using my webspace to host ads or something <_< But it's suppose to be fixed now. The warning page isnt suppose to pop up, I mean. Doesn't for me, on firefox.
*wipes tear from eye*
*edit*
Whoops! I was on moose's page, and thought it was yours lol.
But your art is sweet as well.
You both happen to have solid 2D capabilities. Do want.
>in my opinion, being a good character artist isn't just about being able to look at something at model it.
This is almost the definition of a good character artist. You seem to be confusing a character artist for a concept artist. Character artists take concepts and translate them, rarely do we do the design. So if we're gonna have a discussion, might as well get the terms right, so that we all know what we are trying to say.
I'm just going to ignore the rest and get on with my reply.
First, I would never go out of my way to call myself 'creative' or 'an artist'. I think that labels are far more important to beginners, such as yourself, than to people who have been working at 'art' for any amount of time.
When you come into a new skill, like you are doing now, you know very little about it, other than what you have seen. Because you know nothing, you are left essentially imitating what you expect or believe an artist to be. But without proper understanding, your impression of 'artists' and 'art' are essentially worthless - that is basically what the definition of novice or beginner is: a person with a very superficial understanding of a subject.
It would be like us looking at a guy meditating, and trying to understand what he is thinking. If we wanted to meditate ourselves, we would have to sit down and imitate his facial expressions and posture, maybe the noise he makes, but we wouldn't be meditating, we would just be sitting on the floor, making faces and humming. We are novices, and for us, our entire understanding of what this man is doing is superficial, all we know is what we immediately see.
For us to then enter a conversation about what is and what is not meditation - who is and who is not doing it correctly - would be ridiculous, because our understanding of the whole idea is based on extremely limited knowledge. I think one thing that beginners make in general, not just in art but in learning anything, is believing that their initial assumptions are more insightful than they actually are. This leads amateurs and beginners to spend a lot more time talking than learning, and is often an impediment to improving.
Art is something different to every person. Some people are into the creative aspects, some people are more into the technical aspects - anatomy, technique, medium, etc. I would say that for a person who is just getting interested in art, who is sitting on the floor, making faces and humming, you're not really in a place to say what is art and artistry, and what isn't.
But my prediction would be that by the time you have a deeper understanding of art, the labels you are very keen to slap on things and people will be a lot less important to you. 'Art' will mean something much different and personal than it does now, and you will be much less inclined to put people and disciplines in boxes the way you are doing, because you will understand that there is no point in labeling what is essentially an internal process that means such different things to different people.
Personally I tend to look at art as a series of decisions, those decisions culminating in a finished piece. When you say 'signature' you are referring to that decision making process, which, over several pieces, can result in a general style or similarities that we associate with specific artists.
From your much more narrow viewpoint of the situation, you might say that I don't have a 'signature'. I see a lot of my own personality and decision making in them. Context matters as well. There are a number of good reasons that I keep my work to smaller, easily digestible scenes/pieces. Complexity of CG and big scenes being part of it, the fact that I use my personal work to drive my freelance is another, and the way I perceive a realistic future as well (since most of my work is sci-fi). Originally I wrote a couple paragraphs here about choices, but I chose to remove them because I think it distracts from what I am trying to say.
In the end, I would never say that I am a great artist, because I am not. You already pointed out some of my problems, like my poses aren't dynamic enough, but you also shouldn't treat people like they are done learning. I have an absolute truck-load of flaws that I work everyday to get better at. I have no interest as labeling myself an artist or not, but I do have a problem with the kid on the floor humming and making faces telling other people that they don't know how to meditate.
You are concentrating on all the wrong things, like medium. It is not 2d vs. 3d. Fantastic artists who have no crossover exist in both categories.
Art is an internal thing. Because you are new to it, you've taken the wrong lessons from the way you perceive things to be, rather than the way things actually are. Your observations are superficial, and have led you to some conclusions that are false at best, and at worst might represent future blocks to your improvement.
Like I said above in the analogy about the meditator, it's not rare you or other beginners do this, but you are doing it quite publicly.
lunatorra, funnily enough I'd advise you to study Yuri's mindset regarding art, artists, and improvement in general. I have seen him improve drastically over these past several years, and it's been very inspiring (even to me, as a 2D focused artist).
I know myself, when I really started to improve was when I took titles and expectations out of the mix, and focused simply on my work as a craft. As a subject of study not unlike learning a new language, or code, or anything else. Don't let your views of what you think is "art" and what's not get in the way of progress, because acknowledging how little you know is KEY to getting better. An absolute necessity. Realizing that you know even less than you thought you did previously is something that happens consistently as you get better, and is in fact something that probably never stops happening (so long as you're aiming to keep improving!).
The core concepts of improving your art are the same regardless of medium. Work hard, seek out and learn from failure, don't forget to study! Try to see what's actually there, not simply what you want to be there. The world itself can be your teacher, if you let it.
Interesting post!
However, I'm just going to point out that I made it very clear that my beliefs are opinions, and as such they shouldnt really matter to you at all, as the superior, more-experienced individual...
I'm not going around saying "Hey you guys are stupid, and this is what art is REALLY about" -- no... I'm explaining what art is to ME, just like you did.
I use labels because they help me distinguish between different types of people, and in a studio environment you'd definitely be considered a "character artist", but I am using the words a bit more literally in order to separate the two types of individuals we were discussing.
Will my view on art change as a pursue it? Perhaps. But, I will always be concerned with separating people by the use of terminology. I like to be organized, and efficient, which is why I'm struggling with 2D art. -- A class environment would definitely be better for me, but is currently not an option, otherwise, I firmly believe a person with my personality type should be in one.
I respect your view of what an artist is and isn't, and the "decisions" bit IS pretty interesting, I will admit.
Using your experience alone to express that your logic is superior is an ugly tactic.
It proves that you firmly believe you know something, and no longer consider it just an opinion, otherwise, I doubt you would have worded your message the way you did. Which means, it's actually more likely "you" who isn't aware that there's much more to learn about the path you've chosen. I feel I have very openly accepted that fact, and if you worried less about defending yourself, you could have seen that too.
Your post is well-written, but ultimately serves no purpose, as you were too interested in defending yourself, and only ended up exposing how you truly feel, by mistake, it seems. Dont say my beliefs are worthless THEN actively try to convince me that you belong under my "artist" category.
>However, I'm just going to point out that I made it very clear that my beliefs are opinions, and as such they shouldnt really matter to you at all, as the superior, more-experienced individual...
What I wrote was: Because you are new to it, you've taken the wrong lessons from the way you perceive things to be, rather than the way things actually are. Your observations are superficial, and have led you to some conclusions that are false at best, and at worst might represent future blocks to your improvement.
I am not telling you that I dislike your opinion because it harms me, I hold your opinion in no value as you said, the reason I bothered replying to you was to help you, to show you why fixating on these superficial concerns are distracting at best, and will eventually block you up at worst.
>You clearly value the title of "artist", in my opinion, but, out of respect of the title, you refuse to consider yourself one lol..
I value the concept of art, but nowhere did I state that I desire the label 'artist'. I don't call myself an artist because I really do not care about that labeling. To my mind everyone is an artist. When my 2 year old is doodling with crayons she is making art. But the problem comes in with you, who is going around trying to label this person as an artist and this person as not one. This type of art as art, this other type as not art. So while I can say that having the title of artist means nothing to me, the ego and misconception required for another person to give me that label or not, does bother me, only because it's a pretty immature way to treat art in general, not because it offends me in particular.
>It proves that you firmly believe you know something, and no longer consider it just an opinion
Yes. I firmly believe that people shouldn't try to put boundaries on other peoples 'art', that's all I believe in specific. I don't, and I don't think other people should.
>and simply refuse to accept the fact that a newbie is judging you, whether they are right or wrong.
Lets be clear, if you have valid points to make, I will take them on board any day. You pointed out my lack of dynamic posing, which is a good observation on your part, I would never make any qualms about it, and if I thought you were wrong I would either ask you to explain further, or I would try to figure out where that is coming from. If you don't believe me, look up my anatomy thread. I do no arguing, I take crits from hundreds of people, and I get better because of it. But when you take that critique further, from 'he is bad at posing', to 'therefore he is not an artist', I take offense.
And I do not take offense in the 'BUT DAD I want the artist label!' kind of way, I take offense in the way where I think you are very silly for ever believing that there is some skill point where someone you believe is a non-artist can finally say "I've made it!". It's silly. Ask any of your 2d or 3d heros what skills they need to improve on and you will get a long list. That is why they are good artists. Because they know where their shortcomings are and they strive every day to improve. That is what I try to do as well.
>Using your experience to express that your logic is superior is an ugly tactic.
I never argued that I was better at cg stuff than you, and thus my opinion = better. My opinion is that your trying to stuff all of these things into boxes, and make objective observations on extremely subjective grounds, shows immaturity. When I say something like:
"But my prediction would be that by the time you have a deeper understanding of art, the labels you are very keen to slap on things and people will be a lot less important to you,"
What I really mean is that regardless of whether or not you get any better at art, the process of pouring countless hours of work into a skillset, plus time, will most likely make you a more mature individual, and with that maturity will come a better understanding.
>Which means, it's actually more likely "you" who isn't aware that there's much more to learn about the path you've chosen. I feel I have very openly accepted that fact, and if you worried less about defending yourself, you could have seen that too.
Your post is well-written, but ultimately serves no purpose, as you were too interested in defending yourself, and only ended up exposing how you truly feel, by mistake, it seems.
And this is just silly pop-psychology/overreaching.
Good luck with your journey.
"the ego and misconception required for another person to give me that label or not, does bother me," this suggests that titles do mean something to you, otherwise you wouldn't care which title you, or whoever, was being given. I made it clear that I didn't hold "artist" in any greater value over "modeler".. They're just words. -- If it were my ego getting out of control, i would have been more like you and presented things as fact... I wouldnt have bothered ensuring that the reader knew that one wasnt better than the other, in my view.
In other words, that's likely jealousy, on your part. You dont want me to get away with "it", just because.
It makes no sense to me, your original post.... You say my opinion is worthless, because of my inexperienced but acknowledge that I've pointed out "true" things regarding your work, which is contradictory. -- But the real question would be, why even go out of your way to say things like " you're not really in a place to say what is art and artistry, and what isn't." --- This doesnt help me lol. This is just like an adult, saying to a kid "you'll understand when you're older" in order to express superiority by which the kid cant currently comprehend, which is just insulting for no reason.
Don't confuse my statements. I mean I'm sure you read the message that you're referring to when you said "But when you take that critique further, from 'he is bad at posing', to 'therefore he is not an artist', I take offense."
I never said this. My primary focus was clearly on the fact that there's no expression... and you even quoted one of the statements from that post lol.. The posing just suggested that you could benefit from drawing, and that it would part of the reason I dont consider you a GOOD artist. I said all that stuff.
You dont even know what you're offended over.
And how can you take offense if you dont care about labels man?
Contradictions galore
"the ego and misconception required for another person to give me that label or not, does bother me," this suggests that titles do mean something to you, otherwise you wouldn't care which title you, or whoever, was being given. I made it clear that I didn't hold "artist" in any greater value over "modeler".. They're just words. -- If it were my ego getting out of control, i would have been more like you and presented things as fact... I wouldnt have bothered ensuring that the reader knew that one wasnt better than the other, in my view.
Haha, no, it's because I think it's a stupid thing to do.
Again, no. I said your opinion of what is an is not art is worthless. I said and believe that because you're trying to make objective observations out of completely subjective information. I never said your opinions otherwise are bad, since you are making subjective observations on objective material. You can see my work has poor dynamics in the pose and say, "hey, to me your posing is poor", but you cannot say "you are not an artist!"
Jesus christ.
Absolutely done with this conversation.
"I feel like you think you know a bit more about art than you really do. You could probably benefit from experience, as it tends to expose a lot of things about the path we've all chosen, and provide a more-developed view of 'art' and all the things that we do.
Your opinion means something to me, as you pointed out things i've seen in my work myself. However, I do not appreciate someone trying to take away my ability to call myself an artist. It's rather insulting, as my view of what an artist is, is entirely different.
[Explain Decision stuff]
But ultimately, you shouldnt spend so much time thinking about what art IS. You should focus on MAKING art."
You do realize you just repeated what I just said. I could have structured my sentence differently, but the context suggests that you dont value my opinion regarding art.
The gesture bit was only used to suggest that you could benefit from drawing lol. I explained that. Why did you bring it up again? I dont understand.
You're not so good at being "done".
Anyway, that was a proper use of an hour.
I'm going to assume you'll try harder to be "done" this time and bid you farewell.
Your work is nice. I believe you had to work hard to get where you are, so don't get me wrong. I would love to have your skill.
Even though you were mostly responding in your defense, I believe you have a genuine desire to help, somewhere deep down. So thanks
Aggressively making claims about a subject matter while lacking basic intermediate level competency is hardly a good approach to have when seeking growth. Just because the subject matter is art it does not mean every opinion is just as valid as the next.
I've read his post a couple times and feel it was riddled with insecurity, as a result of the statement I made, not expecting him to actually read it (someone else brought him up)
Are there things to take away from what he managed to express? Yes. But I dont feel it compensates for what seems to be a defense attempt, masked as a "helping hand".
Endless contradictions give it all away, in my opinion. But, what do you feel like i've missed?
lunatorra...I suggest that you get off the internet for a while and put that time in to develop your skills....by sitting here and arguing with Yuri, (a guy that I respect for his ability to improve his own skills, while always sharing with others) you are doing nothing positive for your future development. Your 3D skills are ok at best, and i think that polycount could be a great resource for your learning if you just chilled out a bit y'know?
The ancient art of multi-tasking.
lunatorra, you're either a troll or you're suffering from a serious case of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
you've done nothing but belittle hard working ARTISTS, claiming to know what an artist is, what a good artist is, and what makes people good or bad at what they do. but here's the thing.
EVERY piece of work you've shown is average at best, and some of them are seriously sub-par. you claim to be a freelance artist, but i can't for the life of me think of any serious client who would hire you based on the work you've shown.
this thread needs to be locked, it's an insult to polycount that this guy is even allowed to think here let alone post.
Seriously? How many of you are there? <_<
Attack after attack.
You are doing what the guy just before you was trying to do (and failed to do).
Take me off some imaginary high horse i'm apparently on.
I only showed my 3D work to express my skill level AT THE REQUEST OF OTHERS and "never" even HINTED that I was a beastin' 3D modeler lol. Not once... But in your desperate attempt to bring me down, you attack me in any way you can.
What's next? Are you going to tell me I have big ears?