I can't speak for anyone else, but personally i've had nothing but bad experiences with recruiters, they've always lowballed my rates with clients and/or taken a huge cut of my rates for themselves.
I always find it's better to speak for yourself directly with any studio. Whether you're contracting or looking for fulltime work, the only person who can represent you the way you are, is you.
I would avoid using any 3rd party recruiters. The only "recruiters" you want to talk to are are those that are directly employed by the developer in-house to find new people to add to the team.
not true. a fair number of studios will NOT hire junior or mid level artists salaried and require that they are represented by a recruiting agency.
If you limit yourself by not allowing someone to represent your work you are removing yourself from the job pool in many situations.
A job pool, not thee job pool, its important to have standards, I would agree with LMP and Gir, working through an agency is silly, and if an employer only hires through an out of house agency which is going to take their artists money they are silly themselves.
why would you want to pay a third party while artists get less, anyone you hire its going to breed zero loyalty when you are getting pittance for pay and as soon as they get skill or a better offer (which shouldn't be too hard with the agency taking their cut) they will jump ship.
It makes zero sense for an an employer to hire third party agencies (while it does happen), you are either underpaying your employee or overpaying to cover the cost of the agency, its not a good solution for anyone except the third parties.
its not a good solution for anyone except the third parties.
There are exceptions. Outsourcing the HR-type duties when a company is big enough to need that sort of support but not so big that it's worth having people for it full-time can be paying less to an agency than they would to have someone to do it onsite.
This came up on CGTalk a while back. The impression I got is that, if you're working steadily as a freelancer, having an agent can be a huge advantage simply because while you're fulfilling contracts, they're networking, which should hopefully minimize your down time between jobs.
Again though, that's provided the whole system is working correctly. If they're low-balling your rates, that's a real problem.
I think you're right, Equanim. I think if you're looking to use an agency to land you your first job/s then you're likely to have a bad time. But if you've already got an established clientbase and reputation, having someone speaking on your behalf can help you save a lot of time finding new work.
But as i said, none of my experiences with them have been positive.
Well, many agencies that I find actually say that they take money when they find an artist, not from you, but from companies that hire them. Of course that will lead to pay you less, but that is a way to enter the industry.
If not agencies, then, what will be better option to enter the game industry? I must say that i live in Europe, in the country where there is no next gen companies, and the games they make here are actually big fish games, and when i tried 2 years ago, i spent 2 months, sending e- mails to every company that i could find on the internet, in Europe, and none hired me. I suppose that there are million mails each day coming their way.
I just want to enter the game industry, and my salary right now is less than 1500$ (that is one of the highest in my country, sadly), so, i am used to work only to pay bills. I hope that one day everything will be better, but right now, i have to relocate from the movie industry, where it's really bad for modeling artists, to game industry.
What would you suggest as the best way to do that.
Gir, i am confused now. If you have 7+ year of work, and have your clients, than you don't need agents, you have already found clients who trust you, who will give you work next time. But if you are new, isn't that the best time for someone to find you a job, because you don't know anyone, no one knows you, no one trusts you, you need someone to give your CV to the right people, and to help you in finding job. Later, you will have coworkers, who will give you a recommendation, you will have few shipped titles behind you... Why would you want in that moment to give money to someone, if it is easy for you to find new clients, or work for clients you have already worked for?
But anyway, i am here to find my first job in game industry (4 year in movie industry, but i need entrance in game), so, what do you suggest as better strategy?
But anyway, i am here to find my first job in game industry (4 year in movie industry, but i need entrance in game), so, what do you suggest as better strategy?
That seems like a Microsoft quirk, AFAIK most of the other big studios don't require the use of recruiters. I can think of a about hundred people that work at a studio that requires college degrees, it doesn't mean it's the norm in the game industry.
I've never had great experiences with recruiters and for a while now I don't write them back even for specific positions.
I did once though, did get a handful of interviews.
Strangely the only job I was ever offered from a recruiter based point of view was almost a year after the recruiter got me the interview, and it was clear that this time they were hoping to leave the recruiter out of it. Even though I didn't like that recruiter I thought it was a scummy move by the company, but I didn't want the job anyways.
I think most large studios have their own recruiters. And from what I can tell, most studios dont like using third party recruiters cause they tend to not know what they are talking about.
Though, I did hear they are more common in europe / UK.
pretty sure forza is just a-
I think 343 is the only v-
Track leads and a few others were v- on FM5. Folks they wanted on continuously from early pre-production all the way to RTM. My track lead was v-, and a very seasoned Valve alum who I had a blast working with and learning from.
But anyway, i am here to find my first job in game industry (4 year in movie industry, but i need entrance in game), so, what do you suggest as better strategy?
Judging from your last thread, a much better portfolio, to put it bluntly.
Well, i am from Europe, and definitely i need few more years before i try American companies. I've got an impression that agencies were more common in Europe, and that's the place where i am looking for my first job in game industry, but as i can see, most users on this site are Americans, and probably few people have experience how it works here. So, probably i should try to search for job openings and studios in EU/UK and if i don't find any job, than try agencies. I can see that here is a list with like 30 agencies located in EU or UK, so, they would definitely not exist if the companies didn't call them (too bad that i can't find any ratings, which one is better).
For the portfolio, i will definitely redesign it, i haven't put anything new since 2 years ago, and when i was building it, i stayed without a job, because the company suddenly almost went bankrupt, so, i had to put all i can in the shortest amount of time. I will try to delete the bad ones, and put some newer works if i can get a green light from companies I've been working for the last 2 years.
I would also like to try to find a job in Asia. I suppose that there are many companies too, and maybe it is easier there than in America, but so far I don't know where to look for job opportunities.
v- and a- (v dash and a dash) are tiers of employment at Microsoft. a- means you're contract, with "potential of fulltime", and after a year of working you must take 3 months off before coming back on board for legal reasons. V- means you aren't fulltime, but you get health and benefits and your contract continues indefinitely. And there's fulltime after that.
All of this depends on a host of factors; one thing I run into a lot when staffing up for projects is that I, essentially, get two buckets of money: one I can spend internally (salaried/perm employees) and another I can only spend externally (contractors).
The amount of financial overhead that comes with bringing someone on permanently is not insignificant -- in a lot of cases you're looking at the total cost being ~2x the actual salary.
Some places use that as an excuse to go cheap, others do it as a way to keep headcount low, and so on and so forth.
All of this depends on a host of factors; one thing I run into a lot when staffing up for projects is that I, essentially, get two buckets of money: one I can spend internally (salaried/perm employees) and another I can only spend externally (contractors).
The amount of financial overhead that comes with bringing someone on permanently is not insignificant -- in a lot of cases you're looking at the total cost being ~2x the actual salary.
Some places use that as an excuse to go cheap, others do it as a way to keep headcount low, and so on and so forth.
But do you contract solely through agencies? there are plenty of freelancers which will work under contract with no agency involved, or do you like to use it as a vetting process or something.
I got a 6 month contract that turned out permanent through a recruiter working for the studio. Only experience with recruiters but more than positive :v
Applicants from all corners of the globe are encouraged to apply but must have the relevant skill set and experience as a VISA will need to be sponsored.
I'm being laid off, but my job is nice enough to give me a smooth transition out and got me in touch with a recruiter. I will let you know how that works out.
Replies
I always find it's better to speak for yourself directly with any studio. Whether you're contracting or looking for fulltime work, the only person who can represent you the way you are, is you.
not true. a fair number of studios will NOT hire junior or mid level artists salaried and require that they are represented by a recruiting agency.
If you limit yourself by not allowing someone to represent your work you are removing yourself from the job pool in many situations.
A job pool, not thee job pool, its important to have standards, I would agree with LMP and Gir, working through an agency is silly, and if an employer only hires through an out of house agency which is going to take their artists money they are silly themselves.
why would you want to pay a third party while artists get less, anyone you hire its going to breed zero loyalty when you are getting pittance for pay and as soon as they get skill or a better offer (which shouldn't be too hard with the agency taking their cut) they will jump ship.
It makes zero sense for an an employer to hire third party agencies (while it does happen), you are either underpaying your employee or overpaying to cover the cost of the agency, its not a good solution for anyone except the third parties.
right so at the bare minimum every microsoft studio
Again though, that's provided the whole system is working correctly. If they're low-balling your rates, that's a real problem.
But as i said, none of my experiences with them have been positive.
If not agencies, then, what will be better option to enter the game industry? I must say that i live in Europe, in the country where there is no next gen companies, and the games they make here are actually big fish games, and when i tried 2 years ago, i spent 2 months, sending e- mails to every company that i could find on the internet, in Europe, and none hired me. I suppose that there are million mails each day coming their way.
I just want to enter the game industry, and my salary right now is less than 1500$ (that is one of the highest in my country, sadly), so, i am used to work only to pay bills. I hope that one day everything will be better, but right now, i have to relocate from the movie industry, where it's really bad for modeling artists, to game industry.
What would you suggest as the best way to do that.
But anyway, i am here to find my first job in game industry (4 year in movie industry, but i need entrance in game), so, what do you suggest as better strategy?
I don't know anyone at my studio that was hired that way.
Post your portfolio is a great place to start.
I can name about 7 off the top of my head all for microsoft studios in washington.
I did once though, did get a handful of interviews.
Strangely the only job I was ever offered from a recruiter based point of view was almost a year after the recruiter got me the interview, and it was clear that this time they were hoping to leave the recruiter out of it. Even though I didn't like that recruiter I thought it was a scummy move by the company, but I didn't want the job anyways.
Yeah, that's a Microsoft Games Studios thing.
The only other major studios I know of that do things that way are up here in Microsoftville - Bungie, Arena.net, and very rarely Monolith and Zombie.
Essentially the entire art team at Turn 10 (Forza Motorsport) is contract, either a- or v-. Basically just a handful of leads are FTE.
I think 343 is the only v-
Though, I did hear they are more common in europe / UK.
Track leads and a few others were v- on FM5. Folks they wanted on continuously from early pre-production all the way to RTM. My track lead was v-, and a very seasoned Valve alum who I had a blast working with and learning from.
Judging from your last thread, a much better portfolio, to put it bluntly.
For the portfolio, i will definitely redesign it, i haven't put anything new since 2 years ago, and when i was building it, i stayed without a job, because the company suddenly almost went bankrupt, so, i had to put all i can in the shortest amount of time. I will try to delete the bad ones, and put some newer works if i can get a green light from companies I've been working for the last 2 years.
I would also like to try to find a job in Asia. I suppose that there are many companies too, and maybe it is easier there than in America, but so far I don't know where to look for job opportunities.
P.S. what does v-, a- mean?
Thx you all for your great advices.
The amount of financial overhead that comes with bringing someone on permanently is not insignificant -- in a lot of cases you're looking at the total cost being ~2x the actual salary.
Some places use that as an excuse to go cheap, others do it as a way to keep headcount low, and so on and so forth.
But do you contract solely through agencies? there are plenty of freelancers which will work under contract with no agency involved, or do you like to use it as a vetting process or something.
Pre made Asset Artist The Netherlands
http://opmjobs.com/job/pre-made-asset-artist-the-netherlands-attractive-salary-benefits-aaa-console-games/