artists needed for a game, code almost done
polycounter lvl 5
Hi, I have posted the details in the jobs forum section:
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2037257
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2037257
Replies
The soundFX, spanish voice acting, clunky camera had me in tears. It was like Gothic 3 but worse.
Why would you use ancient weapons when you can just use a Modern day rifle.. Changeable breast size... seriously?
Thanks for the entertainment.
If you don't have anything constructive to say, then why say it? This isn't Youtube...
To be fair I think that criticism is highly valid.
this game does seem to be scatter brained "lets have a game with everything and boobies".
Anyone that creates a game deserves some admiration but I couldn't seriously suggest to anyone I know to waste their time on such a project, it lacks all fundamental coherent direction and vision.
Overwhelmingly positive feedback would not be constructive in this case.
my suggestion is find a designer with a clear vision and work with him.
Polycount is a place for proper, professional criticism, not off the hip youtube comments inspired, childish remarks. So no, his whole post is a poor representation of what this community represents. And at no point did I suggest that there needs to be "overywhelmingly positive feedback". Negative feedback is valid, if it was constructive, which in this case, was not.
Because this is not a game. Also is not the game I want to do, as I said in the video and in the text.
This is what I have learned to do with UDK in a year, so there are swords and rifles, horses and cars, etc. I have tried to do several common things in the games only for learning.
I wanted to learn to code a firearm, I did. I wanted to learn to code a sword, I did. So don't expect coherence in a features demo, that is what is this video.
Now I show here what it can be done, to find people that wants to join to the project.
It's short, it takes less time to read than to write a critique.
Your next move should really be to try and find a designer though as ExcessiveZero has already suggested. You want a clear vision and design document written up before you start seeking artists. That way you have a clearer understanding of what assets you actually need up front.
You will also need an actual working prototype of the game for any decent artist to hop on board under a royalty model, and even then it will probably be difficult. You have to understand that artists are busy doing their own art pieces. Or they are looking for contract work for a more guaranteed payment.
Without a solid game design and an actual working prototype, royalty promises are meaningless to an artist.
Best of luck!
How can I be? He specifically joined these forums to advertise openings for artists to work for free on his project. He may not even have the first clue of Polycount being a place for proper, professional criticism.
There is no point giving helpful criticism when CobaltUDK didn't ask for any feedback. He simply just jammed his link in this thread with an image. It's simply a poor advertisement looking for free help and that's how I treated it.
Sure, I do think what he has coded in a year of learning is impressive. The thing is "75%" of code is done. He typically wants to make a game with the features he is showcasing.
In regards to the above paragraph, as for "constructive", go to any game development forums and you can see many, if not a majority of programmers can code exactly as he has done. Those are common features that everyone who starts game development usually wants to have in their game. Just the same old mechanics that we've been seeing in these washed out repetitive games that have been coming out in the past 5 years. Nothing new or innovative.
I get that it's a prototype but if you're serious about recruiting people for a video game, you should have some original content first.
I have a clear idea of the game, but I can not detail it here. It is a sandbox, set in an ancient time. Perhaps the closest thing is ancient Babylon. But it's not strictly historical.
To have a prototype of the game should have models and assets. So is the snake that bites its tail.
I know it's difficult to find professionals working royalties, but for me the only option I can afford.
I disagree. I think that's the entire point of models and artwork for sale on asset stores. They're there to serve as placeholders for programmers to make prototypes.
And what is the problem? It is for this reason that aggressive attitude?
I've seen your work, you make weapon models. Is an example of innovation where should I look?
http://forums.epicgames.com/threads/960597-No-project-just-learning
Felt like posting here since he is not another one of those "i want to make an MMORPG i have nothing but great ideas and i need everyone to work for me!" kind of people.
When I see that prototype video, I have no idea where the game will go next. Time will be spent building everything from scratch and for a MMO, that's a lot of work.
Game development isn't easy work, and programming is 100x more complicated than art for most people. Putting down others hard work, which you might consider easy, is just a waste of time.
A lot of people on polycount hope to get feedback without directly asking for it. Take a look at basically any newbie in the Pimping and Previews section, for example.
The cool thing about programming is that a lot of features can overlap. If you have written code for a rifle for example, you can copy most of it to make other kinds of similar weapons or at least use it as a base for a related feature.
You say that like it's a bad thing. For starters, the OP is clearly demonstrating that he has programming knowledge and implemented a ton of features to show that he can actually get productive work done. If I was an artist looking for a project, the first thing I would want to know is if I can be backed by a competent programmer that can actually put a game together.
Wouldn't you agree that it's better to release a game that isn't "new or innovative" than to work on a project for 15 months only to have the programmer bail on you?
As for your comment on others being able to do the same things as the OP, does that really matter? I mean just look at the Pimping and Previews section on Polycount. Every other post is "COME LOOK AT MY SEXY WIMMENZ!" or "COME LOOK AT MY GUNZ!"
People like creating things that they have fun making. If somebody just likes to make military themed things, then what's wrong with that if they enjoyed it?
Anyway, good luck finding some artists OP. Personally I'd probably start moving towards learning Unreal Engine 4 considering artists are likely going to flock to the shiniest new engine considering it will make their work look better, and so you might have an easier time finding people to help you with a project. I haven't used UE4 too much but I'm sure a lot of your knowledge will carry over nicely.
If you can't find others to work with you, then you could always try learning game art yourself. It's going to be a harder and lengthier route but it's been done before, even by other polycounters like blankslatejoe who recently released his own game(Tower of Guns) using UDK.
I find the system somewhat slow, perhaps too much for the game I want to do. Requires fast machines and directX11 graphics cards, so many people could not use it.
On the other hand I have a lot of work done with UDK and I want to use it. If it works, the next project will be with EU4.
I believe it was one programmer who started with two artists, but they both left and so now it's just one guy working alone (he might have recruited more people in the last few months but I'm not too sure about that). Anyway, it just shows that even if you primarily do programming, it will still be possible to make some nice looking art assets. The game has raised a lot of popularity on youtube as well which shows that even as a heavy prototype with placeholder assets, it'll be possible to get your name out there.
Good luck and feel free to request feedback from people on this site as this is a great place to learn about game development and art.
I'd also like to apologize to tynew, after re-reading my post just now it's clear that I came off as a bit of an asshole which was mostly because I was pissed off at the time. At the end of the day, everybody is still entitled to an opinion.
If you want a demoreel, trim the whole thing down to 1-2 mins and only focus on the best.
If you want a vision, focus on what will actually be part of the game.
I see your argument, and i counter with this:
That said, i don't see anything wrong with the critique that was given. It might not have been overly refined, but it was an honest and visceral reaction. That kind of criticism is usually worth taking notice of.
You can go on Polycount and find 300 people who can all make a real time game weapon, therefore the next people to post one don't deserve constructive feedback? Your logic is hilariously flawed. There was a mature way to put across the opinion in your opening post, and you didn't bother to think of it.
But then there is a thread just bellow this that complains you jokers are losing work or cant get a job.
Bitch in your brain not in public and apply and get paid and cry after you can eat and sleep for another day not on the street's.
Artists jesus *laughs*
Might be slightly valid if the position was paying, but for a royalty based design you really have to have faith in the project, people stating why they wouldn't have faith in the project should be useful to such a person who needs artists.
I could just list off a ton of reasons why its one to avoid, from the ambitious scale to the obvious desire for AAA graphics, to it being his first game.
I mean really you are asking a lot of time and dedication spent to a project which is not doing anything new, only a dupe would work on what's been pitched here, sincerely, not that I don't think Cobalt should stop, I think he should work with a designer to get a coherent vision of a game and work from there and build his team, perhaps starting smaller.
My first game I started working on was a simple 2d platformer puzzler, and it took 3x as long as I thought to complete and was 20x more complicated than I thought it would be, and I got 90% of it done in the first week I swear, it was that last 10% which was the grind and the next project indie i'm working on now, is about 200x more simple, and actually fun to play.
Because rather than tacking on features to makeup for a game which wasn't fun to begin with like I was my last one I found key core gameplay mechanics to actually make it enjoyable.
And i'm not ambitious enough to say, oh when I finish this game its going to be awesome and make tons of money, but I think people will play the game and some people will enjoy it, which to me is the larger point of doing all this.
If so, all your conclusions are wrong.
You say it is sandbox. Sandbox isn't a game genre, it doesn't outline anything mechanically.
So lets say this is an RPG. Is it story based where you have an overarching story moved forward with quests? Is it a boss battle game like Shadow of the collossus? What at the gameplay mechanics and core motives for wanting to make an open world avatar game.
Seriously, think long and hard on this, because otherwise you are just making something that doesn't need to exist because there are already many large world rpg's with good mechanics.
Well done on learning to code! Although honestly my advice would be to start prototyping tiny game ideas, and find the fun, or work out how to hit other goals you have with gameplay mechanics, that or if you want to find an artist, be -prepared to give design freedom to him/her as well.
The gameplay is similar to Skyrim and many other games, a main mission and some secondary. The atmosphere is not medieval, no magic, no superpowers. It's a story of rebellion against a powerful cacique, and I can't tell more. The story is not anything original.
If only the original stories were acceptable, Skyrim on line don't exist, Battlefield or Call of Duty every year don't exist. It's the same game over and over again with better graphics and small differences.
Zombie games, better not talk.
That argument doesn't make much sense.
And again I say that this is an indie game.
I can calculate the time required to make the game:
- Base models, clothes, weapons, animals ... 11 months .
- Assets, maps, 7 months .
- Animations, all almost done.
- Finish programming, 4 months.
- Testing gameplay, dialogues, missions, 4 months.
Then with 2 character artists and 2 assets modelers/level designers, the game can be done in 6 months, working an average of 5 hours a day.
In the last year, in addition to learning to program, I modeled some models, textured, rigged, doing animations, created landscapes with foliage and some localizations, and everything you can see in the video. So I think my calculations are enought correct.
And probably before those 6 months we know if we go ahead, based on user feedback.
And start with something small?? For what?
To learn? I just made the gameplay of a game like Skyrim (keeping distance, of course). What will I learn doing a little game? for mobile?
To earn money? Yes, if I make the next Angry Birds. But probably is that my game is just one of thousands of mobile games and no one will know it's existence.
Honestly, I think it's better to make a game like this, a game I like to make and I like to play. And it's an indie game, not an AAA.
Nobody is saying you have to make a tiny game. Think about the work hours of Skyrim though, you're talking about game made by a team of at least 100 incredibly experienced(not including outsourcing) devs that were backed with a multi-million dollar budget.
Unless you're willing to sacrifice a lot of quality, your predicted timings for a lot of those things are off.
The first thing you should try to do is get some more organization. If you can't write out at least a page summary of the story and the major characters, then you aren't in a good place because you'll end up with a game that won't flow together at all. It might not seem like it, but a lot of people play TES games for the lore.
Nobody is saying you have to re-define the wheel, but it sounds like you're biting off a bit more than you can chew (this isn't a personal attack of any sort.)
I would recommend trying to fill out a game design document if you haven't already done so as it could help with you organization. Here is a template I found on google that could help.
Also, don't describe something by comparing it to another game, instead, go into detail about the exact thing you are aiming for and let others make the comparison for you. Good luck!
"And it's an indie game, not an AAA."
That's exactly what i am saying. Man you are on the defensive here, none of us want you to fail, but keep in mind, the majority of us have worked in the industry for a while now. There is a lot to understand, especially when you are trying to sell a game for artists to spend their hard earned living money on working with you. Making a generic rpg with a small scope isn't making anyones panties wet with anticipation.
Indie is hard. You can't compete on scale, graphics fidelity or production values, instead you have to focus on interesting ideas, great story writing and things that are more risky than not. And if you disagree with this find something successful in the indie space that subverts this.
Confidentiality isn't an excuse. Ideas are a dime a dozen.
1. You seem super passionate about this (and understandably so), and that's a good thing! It makes me want to help you out!
2. Unfortunately, I and many other artists here either work fulltime, or freelance, or both. This means that taking on free work is almost impossible for us.
Now, I know you're offering royalties as payment. But that to me means free work. The reason for that is that there's no guarantee of payment (either short or long term), it means that there is potential for my time to have been taken up for nothing.
BUT, I think it's a shame for artists who haven't landed their first job or don't have regular freelance work coming in to turn their noses up at opportunities like this. There are a lot of "bad eggs" out there in terms of projects that offer royalty payments and "seem" like good ideas at first but turn out to be poorly managed and dissolve into nothing. But i don't think this is one of those, you've clearly done a lot of work and have more than what people could call a working prototype.
I wish you good luck, and i'm sorry i don't have the time to help you.
> I've created a solid game its working and using placeholder assets atm, its a good place for a new artist to show off their best work (with generous restrictions) running real time in an actual game and as it's working and very broad your time won't be wasted,
and if the project works out commercially, you'll even get royalties!!! =D
< *sigh* It's not innovative, it's not focussed, wheres the design, I wouldn't have designed like that, where's the original artwork, why should I work for free, you're asking too much from me, blizzard don't work like this, WTF captain I'm an artist not an engineer!
Sadly I fit into almighty_girs (above me) second point,
But I've been involved in enough indie projects to know most are concept art and design that get everyone excited, but nothing ever comes of it,
because they lack a determined and skilled programmer.
This is a project artists should fight over being a part of!!!
And to be quite frank the enthusiasm and inability to focus of student and hobbyist designers kills these kind of projects.
Because I like cock!
Anyway all the best with this project and listen to the people who have given useful feedback like getting your ideas down in detail on paper but I would ignore the negativity in this topic, have to say I expected a bit better from polycount....
From what i could see is that there is a bunch of implemented disparate game mechanics, and i wanted to understand if there is a core design to tie it all together.
And as far as innovation. it IS super important, because games are a consumer good and what players want to experience should always come into the game design.
It all comes down to "what is cool about your game that makes me want to play it?"
[ame="
I don't want to be dishonest and give false feedback in order to jerk each other off in some kind of delusional positivity, I like to hear success when people make games or land jobs, but i'm not going to reccomend this to anyone when all the warning signs are there.
people like gir I sincerely have the highest respect for, yet I am dismayed when you say students and out of work artists should just take up this job, but you can't do it due to time restraints, students should be studying and people out of work should be expanding their skills and portfolio.
Telling people to be less than realistic about a project and to just get on with it and do it is ludicrous,at least 6 months in a project with all the signs of failure and no assurance of payment is not something I can suggest a unemployed artist or a student do.
And perhaps quite cynically I may say those that are so supportive of this project in words only and think others should get on and do it because they are too busy, than they should quit their jobs, they have so much faith in its success so why not, quit, do it, get the royalties and when you are a millionaire in 6 months I will congratulate you.
Words alone are pretty cheap.
unless you are hiring a voice artist for your game too
if you cant get a job as an artist, this might be a good opportunity to work with a skilled programmer on anything resembling a game production. Hell, you might even get payed for it. And if you dont, well then at least you can add a few art assets to your portfolio and a hint of production experience to your resume. You might even have some youtube videos to throw in there too instead of your everyday marmoset2 portfolios.
Its not time wasted if your producing something you can use.
At least for me, with all the work done this last year, leaving behind complex mechanics I've already done to go to simpler mechanics will not contribute much to my learning. I don't want to grown my curriculum because I'm not looking for work, I have one that is not bad, especially for living in Spain...
But making games is something I've always wanted to do, I'm relatively new in this world, I tried a few times many years ago, in the age of 8 bits, the ZX -Spectrum and Z80 assembler, then with 16 bit Atari St and 68000 assembler, and failed. I turned my attention to other things. And now I'm here again.
Regarding the document, you're right , it's something I should have done. I have something like a story script, some estimates of what is needed and the time to do it. And the video I posted is a good statement of intent. The gameplay, which is for me the most important , is well shown in that video.
Almighy_gir, Kel-Shaded, JohnnyRaptor, thanks for your comments. I think you are right when you say that at least the artists enrich their portfolio, not just static images but with characters moving in a game, whether finished it or not. And having them in video and running on their pcs.
Muzz, the video shows "disparate game mechanics" because it is NOT the prototype of the game, is a video to show what I've been learning in a year. It's a "demo reel". It has nothing to do with the game I want to do.
ExcessiveZero, not understand your attitude, you do not know which is the idea of my game, beyond the brief summary I've done. You haven't seen the graphics or the gameplay. You've only seen what I have learned to do and don't think you look it bad.
I know this is difficult, it highly probable that the game does not come out to the market, or may not be finisehd. But while we have a chance I think we should try. It's something that notice to all potential partners, I don't want to lie anyone or create false expectations.
I don't expect earn millions with this game. Like I said I know it's very dificult to earn 1 dollar only.
It seems right to say that students have to study and professionals to work on serious projects.
I have a job 8 hours per day, and have done everything you see in my video in one year, in my free time, and only me, alone. Not only learn to programming, but made several models, riggins, animations, maps, lighting tests, etc.
If I've done that, I think any of the members of this forum can do as well or better in their respective fields.
Many artists of this forum do things for fun and/or for add to their portfolio. Collaborating in this game have the possibility to have their models not only in images but video, moving, interacting with them. Having an executable of the current game state on their pcs with their own models. Although the game is not completed or is marketed.
And like Kel-Shaded says, if the game sells, then will have royalties.
It's not work in vain, where is the problem then?
And marketing is very important, perhaps most important, but... there is nothing to show from future game yet, no models, no maps, no gameplay... so I come here to get help as the first step.
Anyway appreciate your opinions, so one does not fall in that exaggerated positivism that can make the fall hardest.
- Can they post online the stuff they make, and claim it's theirs when the piece is completed ? (not the game, but when the art piece is done, can it be claimed and posted right away ?) This will ensure the artists do not lose the work they do if you disappear.
- Are the artists going to be making something awesome ? Can they make badass next-gen characters with different and interesting archetypes ? Or are they stuck making crappy stuff. ? i.e. Will this be a learning experience for artists or a boring choir ? Will this look better on their portfolio than they making something on their own ? Or someone else's project instead of yours ?
- How much freedom do artists have ? Can they go nuts and have fun ? What's your art direction ?
- Are you simply looking for ppl to follow your words and make stuff. Or are you looking more for collaborate relationships ?
- How will you guarantee the artists will get paid later when/if the game sells. Some artists might not stick around that long if they get a real job somewhere else, while your game might take yrs before fruition. How will they get paid ? How much ?
Last time I was involved in something like this, lack of direction killed the whole thing quick. And right now it seems you're lacking direction.
2.5 cents
Peace
I always put in my videos credits to people who have made models, and it's what I keep doing. If me disappear? they can do with their models what they want.
If I wanted crappy models would not come here, I'll ask to my neighbor, who spends her days shouting at her dog and have not touched a PC in her life.
On their portfolio instead of images they can put videos of their characters doing what they are supposed to do, "live" in a video game.
I have the general story, but not all the characters designs, so they can participate in that part, I would like them to do it.
My idea is, once formed the group, make a distribution of royalties by work participation.
If someone leaves the team then the percentage will be re-calculated and would pay when have income, and can use their work done in the game.
If they prefer their work will be no used in the game, then no royalties.
How much? I cant know, perhaps nothing.
Probably yes, I'm new in this.