Killer Croc Re-Model

Giles_P

So at some point last year I decided to model Killer Croc based on the Batman arkham games. It was one of the first models I did a high-low polly process on. I decided what I eventually finished was not good enough and representative of the standard I feel I can achieve. Therefore I am completely re-doing the piece. I thought it would be a good idea to track progress on polycount and to try and get feedback. Here is where I am with the sculpt.

BARDLER

Before you worry about cloths, skin detail, scales and all of that get his anatomy down. You have lots of issues with proportions, muscle connections, and structure that doesn't make sense. What reference are you following?

Giles_P

Thankyou BARDLER this is exactly the sort of feedback I was hoping for. I have included an image of what I am going off roughly, however there are other images I am taking reference from.

JoshWilkinson

I think the primary problem you said comes from what Bardler pointed out: your proportions are way off. It looks like in the concept his spine changes direction half way through his torso? I can also tell you're working closely from this one image because his hands are half way down his thigh, his waist is way too wide and his legs are way too short; all symptoms of a reference image being taken from a camera that is higher than the subject. That's called foreshortening.

I'd suggest looking up some extreme body builders and studying their anatomy, while still tying to remain visually interesting. That is, if you really want to maintain this art direction for your character. Personally, I'm not a big fan of recreating a famous model because the last thing I ever want to hear is, "That looks alright, but it reminds me of xxx, where it was done better."

Maybe consider Bermejo's take on Killer Croc from The Joker? In it, Killer Croc works security for a nightclub. Having a character that visually alludes to a nightclub whilst still visually illustrates a crocodile-man could be cool. Or what about Jim Lee's very crocodile interpretation from Hush? In the cited image Croc was in business casual before he broke into combat. But if you go the "very-crocodile liking" route, I'd like to see some crocodile tendencies, like Eric Spitler's render with a very crocodile-looking back. Or did you ever seen the Moral Kombat Rebirth trailer? They did a great job explaining Reptile's disorder (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGnVhqhmip8&t=1m6s) while still remaining within the realm of believability. That's all it really comes down to: have a cool story that's reflected in your character.

/end ramble

Giles_P

This is fantastic feedback, Thankyou so much for taking the time to give me the constructive criticism, I do want to keep it a very crocodile like styling of the model. I will post an update tomorrow addressing some of the issues, Jim Lee's interpretation looks really kool so I think it would be good to take reference from him also.

JoshWilkinson

I completely forgot to cite Ted Naifeh's sketch. It contrasts what we know about Killer Croc in a very nice way, but his description of the character is completely on point.

Regardless, looking forward to your progress.

Giles_P

So following your advice on proportions I feel I have addressed some of the issues with the model. I have made the waist thinner, longer legs and arms do not quite come down as far as before. I have decided I do want to maintain the very crocodile styling of the character. Unfortunately haven't been able to do alot since yesterday as I work in the games industry during the daytime!



It doesnt seem alot but visually I really feel that the points made have improved the model, he looks alot less dumpy than before, for want of a better term.

D4V1DC

Needs work to be harshly honest with you.

The arms for the most part as far as angles and length go otherwise the front view looks really bad, please understand i want to help but harsh is the way to go about these things. Immediately i was like off, to be honest i've seen so many models and w.i.p.s. that i feel confident after 10 years i can say that is off. lol



Trust me i am on your side first and foremost,
Hands need a little bit of work but not a lot, chest to hips needs work, use references here.
Back is all screwed up, sorry but please have some sense of style or curvature when your doing this, luckily for you your still sculpting so adjusting should be easy as pie, drop to your lowest and adjust this badboy.

Feet come more towards the head look that up please, as for stylized the side profile looks alright just have to adjust the angles look at this thing from the 45 degree angle, from front & back you should see differences that make you wonder if this is at all right or wrong.

But i can see where your trying to head you just need to get a good push hope I've helped, sorry if i offended, i only want to help.

Giles_P

Dont worry Im not taking anything by offense I would rather you be honest so that it helps develop the model for the better. Im still shocked I have had any responses, and still dont know why, perhaps a more interesting subject matter than my other posts! So I have been focusing more on the areas suggested and taking reference from extreme bodybuilders and the forms they develop when the muscles get to such extreme sizes. I feel its certainly progressing but please provide me with more feedback!

billymcguffin

The pecs and shoulders still need work. Think about where the muscles attach to the bone and fit together.

https://lh3.ggpht.com/-9TYoBqpzXIw/T6P9q3FphcI/AAAAAAAABaE/XxpBbKAcUmo/s1600/anatomy_mood_board.jpg

beefaroni

Image to image, it does not seem like there is much variation between your iterations. I suggest letting go of your detail work you have.

Step down you your base subdivision and really try to incorporate BringMeASunkist's advice. I'll just add in my basic thought process.

1. Find reference of huge bodybuilders/fighters that work with the overall proportions of Killer Crok (Brock Lesnar comes to mind)



2. After you have your base proportions correct, take a look a crocodile anatomy breakdowns. What is the relation between the scales, muscles, and fat?

3. Build up the scales and thicker "armor" parts on top of your base anatomy. Now, you should have a great base which to pose the model (e.g, the back).

JoshWilkinson

beefaroni is right, right now you need to ditch all the detail (crocodile attributes) and focus solely on anatomy and proportions. This thread chronicles a good workflow for anybody building a character with unique anatomy; and he's still getting his anatomy criticized.

His reference is also pretty good. I feel like I've seen that cat fighting in UFC? Which would probably be a great place to study anatomy.

beefaroni

Ya UFC. He's an absolute BEAAST.

Anyways, got bored of tuts so I figured I'd add something else to this. Here's an image of him in a pose that COULD be used as inspiration for your final presentation. Compare this (especially the relationship between his traps and his shoulders) to your model and I think you'll quickly see why I suggest you throw away all of that detail on your model.

Giles_P

Wow, didnt expect to get so many responses. Point taken, ive knocked this right back to the lowest sub D level and taken note of the forms of Brock Lesnar but also taken inspiration from a couple of other images I felt conveyed what I am after. I have done some quick changes to the form of the chest/shoulders and neck but want to check this is heading more in the right direction.







Again thankyou for all your input, I wont be giving up on this until it is representative of what I can achieve!

Giles_P

Ok so Im not sure whether im getting this right or not, looking back at comparrisons it certainly feels and looks alot better than it did when I first posted. I dropped it right down to alter the proportions and then worked in some more scales to keep with the more animalistic side of the character. Here is where I am at right now!



Made alterations to how the neck connects to the shoulders, focused on his chest alot and the shape of his pecks. Also increased the size of his feet and lengthened his legs more. Added a better flow to his back as crocodiles have alot of bulk in this region, which is a featured that I wanted to follow across to this character. Thanks again!

stevston89

I really wouldn't recommend keeping your high subdivision levels. It is really restricting you right now. You won't be able to properly fix this sculpt with out deleting your details and starting for them lowest subdivision. You no only need the proportions, but the structure too. Currently all of your muscle structures are connecting wrong. I would recommend studying human anatomy a lot more before you continue. Take a look at this anatomy model ( more images here):

Giles_P

I am using the book " artistic anatomy" but given this is not really human I am finding it particularly difficult. It's only the second full character sculpt for me. Is it possible you could point out more specific areas please stevston?

JoshWilkinson

From all the reference you've showed, your iteration of Croc has very, very human proportions with some croc tendencies as additions. If I were you, I'd sculpt a very high detailed human body with proportions like the UFC characters that have been cited here. Or a not so beefy character but very accurate to the human muscular system that stevston referenced. Then use inflations to enlarge his muscular system in a realistic way? But scales and all crocodile tendencies should come later, and maybe placed on layers so you can edit/ tweak those details very easily.

stevston89

Yeah sure. Here is a paint over to help out. The pectoral muscles flow from the sternum and collar bone into the area where the deltoid and biceps meet. The muscles of you arm aren't correct, you just have them as lumps. You are hiding all of the back and neck muscles with scales. Also I wouldn't arch him over so much it destroys any anatomy guidelines for you to work from. I would keep it more humanoid at your stage so you can learn more. Here is the paint over. I changed some proportions and stuff. Most of the above is addressed, but not everything.

* These are not 100% accurate muscle structures, but it should help*

Giles_P

Ok so spent some time going over what you have described and illustrated stevenson. Hoping that it is feeling more realistic proportion wise.

stevston89

It's getting better. I would indicate the flow of the pectoral muscle even at this stage. I would thin out his torso and the arms as well ( you could also make the arms longer). I think you should be looking at anatomy ref more still. Some of the muscle connections are still off. For example the deltiods should be angled more towards the back and the connection should be almost in the middle of the arm. Here is some ref for that: