2015 and I have been waiting around for... Quad chamfer; really, something that I've had already for years now. This is the most voiced modeling feature the max community has been calling out for? an old plug-in? what!!!! Yeah, not functioning boolean tools, work plane, better pivots/pivots placements, locks, cap tools, selection up-dates, cut tools, quick menus, smashes, UV's, etc. Yeah this is "A visible sign of Autodesk's commitment to the future of max" - You ain't got no future, Jack! You're an A-1 nut boy.
They fixed small annoying things in 3ds Max as well:
"Small Annoying Things
With the understanding that small things can make a big difference, 3ds Max
2015 addresses up to ten minor workflow obstacles identified as high priority
by customers. Among these are the ability to preserve UVs for Inset Polygons;
the ability to slide partials loops in Swift Loops; and adaptive viewport
navigation for smarter zooming, panning, and orbiting. "
For the thin seam display by default, just find your "unrwapuvw.ini" in your "<Maxroots>\plugcfg_ln" folder. Open in a texteditor, search for "ThickOpenEdges" and set it to 0. Save & restart Max and you are done. Did'nt find the normalize option in there though
You can save the windows positions there too by using the following entries ( here's my example ) WindposX2 means right window border etc..
The position values though get overwritten when you choose "Options->Save Current Settings as default"
monster: Have you done much python scripting using the 2014 extension?
No, but Maya's Python implementation got off to a rocky start and I expected Max's too as well. And as I mentioned, the extensions are more like beta tests and smoother/better workflows come out at release.
Thanks for the heads-up on the fixes to small annoying bugs. Browsing through the appropriate forum and checking the 'completed' entries, it looks like quite a lot of annoyances were squashed.
Autodesk still needs to revamp Max's UV editor. It's still clunky in my view.
Agreed. Having it as a mode that is independent of the modifier stack would really help, leave the modifier there if people like working that way but at least realize that there are times when the stack can't be collapsed and people still need to tweak UV's without bloating the stack even more.
Unifying the keyboard shortcuts and workflow with other common elments inside of max, would really save a lot of time.
Double click to select loops.
Shift click to select rings.
Convert selections between modes by holding ctrl and clicking the new mode.
Transfer more than face selection out of the UV editor and into edit poly.
RE-ENABLE THE SAVING OF TOOL DEFAULTS on floating windows like Relax, the "save default" button was removed in 2010 and ever since you can't save over the default.
Allow some modeling tools like swift loop to work in the uv editor window.
I could go on for pages and pages... and I have... so forget it.
That's the thing. And we all agree but I doubt they'll ever do it. It would be great if they would just take a release (or point release) and address the hundreds of little annoying things that piss people off all day long. Don't worry about features ... smooth out what's already there!
I think the heat of competition is slowly starting to make its way to Autodesk. Typical of a huge corporation they are slow and seemingly reluctant to respond but I think it is slowly happening.
Maya has recently had or will soon have: new modeling tools with improved mirroring, booleans and refined standard tools, creasing/new subdiv algorithm, and a complete overhaul of the UV editor.
Slightly older updates had what? Viewport 2.0 and a new UI scheme?
Of course this is all from the perspective of an aspiring environment artist. For all I know there has been a jaw-dropping revolution in animation tools or offline rendering.
I just noticed in Maya "what's new" pdf also new support to add any deformer based on edges or faces selections!
That is some really cool stuff for modeling!!
Maya in v2014 and now in v2015 really jumped ahead a lot! Hope to see this kind of progress(and more?) in the future!
Agreed. Having it as a mode that is independent of the modifier stack would really help, leave the modifier there if people like working that way but at least realize that there are times when the stack can't be collapsed and people still need to tweak UV's without bloating the stack even more.
Unifying the keyboard shortcuts and workflow with other common elments inside of max, would really save a lot of time.
Double click to select loops.
Shift click to select rings.
Convert selections between modes by holding ctrl and clicking the new mode.
Transfer more than face selection out of the UV editor and into edit poly.
RE-ENABLE THE SAVING OF TOOL DEFAULTS on floating windows like Relax, the "save default" button was removed in 2010 and ever since you can't save over the default.
Allow some modeling tools like swift loop to work in the uv editor window.
I could go on for pages and pages... and I have... so forget it.
I dabbled with it a little but it didn't feel like $300 worth of magic. What am I missing?
The interface resembles windows 95 and the controls are quirky BUT, in my opinion the unfolding algorithm is bulletproof. Make cuts, drop to UV space, push button, done.
It's so reliable that if it fails to unwrap a complex shell instantly then 9 times out 10 I know that I have messed up the cuts.
Also it unwraps everything at a fixed texture density, gives you a temperature gauge on how distorted the UVs are (green/red) and has good tools for straightening UV islands / relaxing and other things.
It can tell you how much UV space you are using/wasting in %
The main drawback I have found is that you have to leave the 3D package, so if you have messed up the geometry somewhere you cant just fix it and resume, you have to go back and re-export/import.
The main drawback I have found is that you have to leave the 3D package, so if you have messed up the geometry somewhere you cant just fix it and resume, you have to go back and re-export/import.
There are plugins that automate this "re-export/import" process. For softimage I have a small plugin that sends the selected geometries to headus and imports them automatically as a new texture projection after I´m finished.
Except you have to export as .obj, open another app and then export it from headus and import it back into your main app. They have some plug-ins for Maya and SoftImage but how long will Headus maintain those? What if they break with the next update and Headus decides its not worth it? Now you're stuck.
Max has very similar tools (mostly added as a response to Headus); Peel: It actively relaxes as you select edges and break.
Point to Point Edge Selection: Smart man's pelt mapping. Use it to draw your seams on your mesh, break and relax.
Quick Peel: You select faces, hit the button and BAM instantly detached and relaxed shell. None of that wonky export as obj, fire up another program bs.
Explode along; smoothing, face angle, material IDs: It arranges the pieces about as well as Headus which in either app requires some work after the fact.
About the only thing headus has is a nifty heat map (neat but not that cool) and some rudimentary symmetry tools for perfectly symmetrical models. Put symmetry modifier on top of UVWUnwrap and you've got the same magic. Like Justin said, not 300 worth of cool...
It's better for everyone if we push Autodesk to actually make their software better rather than let them think everything is fine and doesn't need to be fixed or updated.
Raise some noise, rattle some gates and get the tools you want in the programs you use. Save yourself from convoluted workflows. Save yourself and future employers some cash by not making your personal pipeline dependent on 3rd party software that may not be kept up to date and might stop working at some point.
Except you have to export as .obj, open another app and then export it from headus and import it back into your main app. They have some plug-ins for Maya and SoftImage but how long will Headus maintain those? What if they break with the next update and Headus decides its not worth it? Now you're stuck.
The one button send in / out for Max is in a script (and reasonably version agnostic). It was originally made by a third party and maintained that way (rflecthr, maiuu have all touched it iirc).
For a few years I used UVLayout all the time, but in the year or so have just stayed in Max. The tools are pretty good at this point -- that is a solid LSCM implementation and a good relax. I pretty much get all I need out of that. The flexibility of staying in your modeling application is pretty worthwhile.
I do mainly 3rd person weapons, so organics might need more magic from the relax algorithm.
To be honest, that's why I enjoy Modo so much ... it allows me to stay inside of Modo for a LOT of the time. I rarely have to use other apps. That makes me more efficient.
Is it different from the "show edge distortion" option under Display in the Edit UVW window?
Yea headus has a better visual display. It colors faces, not just the edges, and max's edge distortion uses green and red which they also use for selection and seam color so it just gets confusing with it on. It's one of those things they could probably easily change if people didn't ignore it and use checker patterns instead.
Max's relax algorithm is about the same as Headus which is about the same as Maya's.
What problems do you run into with Max's relax?
How is Headus's relax algorithm better?
Do you have some examples?
Except you have to export as .obj, open another app and then export it from headus and import it back into your main app. They have some plug-ins for Maya and SoftImage but how long will Headus maintain those? What if they break with the next update and Headus decides its not worth it? Now you're stuck.
Max has very similar tools (mostly added as a response to Headus); Peel: It actively relaxes as you select edges and break.
Point to Point Edge Selection: Smart man's pelt mapping. Use it to draw your seams on your mesh, break and relax.
Quick Peel: You select faces, hit the button and BAM instantly detached and relaxed shell. None of that wonky export as obj, fire up another program bs.
Explode along; smoothing, face angle, material IDs: It arranges the pieces about as well as Headus which in either app requires some work after the fact.
About the only thing headus has is a nifty heat map (neat but not that cool) and some rudimentary symmetry tools for perfectly symmetrical models. Put symmetry modifier on top of UVWUnwrap and you've got the same magic. Like Justin said, not 300 worth of cool...
It's better for everyone if we push Autodesk to actually make their software better rather than let them think everything is fine and doesn't need to be fixed or updated.
Raise some noise, rattle some gates and get the tools you want in the programs you use. Save yourself from convoluted workflows. Save yourself and future employers some cash by not making your personal pipeline dependent on 3rd party software that may not be kept up to date and might stop working at some point.
I have not used Max's UV tools so can't comment but Maya doesn't hold a candle to Headus. If you make cuts and hit unfold in Maya there is a high chance it will simply have a seizure. I had to consult this video to understand how to use the native tools and look at all the pissing about he is doing just to unwrap some basic shapes:
If only they would now integrate Mudbox into Maya or at least it's painting/texturing tools!
...instead of adding Maya compatibility into Mudbox and bloat it with the options that are not relevant to non-Maya users, then just add it completely into Maya and keep it clean!
And i don't mean here on adding it to Maya and kill it. I mean something like it's with BodyPaint 3D. Integrated and standalone version.
Most of his problems are self enduced by using unfold and not understanding the weight solver value (it corrects that weird perspective issue he complains about), its covered in the Maya help files, if he ever bothered to check... Always check the help files before ranting... heh.
Unfold in max is crap too, that's why no one uses it. Instead of making a bunch of crappy tools and work arounds, they fixed relax.
It's been a really long time since max's relax tools crumpled into a pile of verts or just sat there and spun, 4 maybe 5 years? If Maya's relax tools is still crap they need to get off their asses, it will clear up a lot of problems.
Max has "straighten selection" that would have squared off that barrel in one click, all of that unfolding horiz/vertical crap he does, is horrible...
Max's uv editor has one pretty big fundamental flaw, its modifier dependent not a mode. That might not seem like a big deal, until you try to transfer selection out of the editor window while modeling, or you have to apply another UVWunwrap modifier to a stack that can't easily be collapsed.
They can fix Maya's relax and LSCM tools if they ever get off their asses, but unhitching the UVWunwrap modifier from max's stack is a hell of a lot harder.
That's better, I hope it relaxes on selections iteratively? It would suck if the only way to get it relax like that is to auto unfold/arrange everything each time.
Max has "straighten selection" that would have squared off that barrel in one click, all of that unfolding horiz/vertical crap he does, is horrible...
Be fair ... that thing does the wrong thing at least half the time. It works in ideal cases though, yes...
I wish more modeling apps would mimic what Headus UVLayout does when you hit the 'R' key ... bang, rectangular unwrap if at all possible. And it's good at determining if it's possible...
Is there a negative effect on an asset caused by leaving your primary 3d package? It seems pretty minor compared to the time you'll save, I mean it's literally like 4 clicks. Max has good unwrapping tools as well, it's more of the fact that I hate the UI. With Headus, I can literally just point my mouse at an edge and with three keypresses I can make a cut and relax the piece into an island.
Once I'm done with Headus, it's still pretty easy to just import the model back into Max and either finalize some things or just re-export as an FBX.
It's better for everyone if we push Autodesk to actually make their software better rather than let them think everything is fine and doesn't need to be fixed or updated.
Raise some noise, rattle some gates and get the tools you want in the programs you use. Save yourself from convoluted workflows. Save yourself and future employers some cash by not making your personal pipeline dependent on 3rd party software that may not be kept up to date and might stop working at some point.
It seems like noise at the end of the day, is just noise. Wouldn't supporting third party software be the kind of action that would encourage them to actually do something, since competition results in evolution?
It seems like one of those "speak with your wallet, not your mouth" kind of deals.
Most of his problems are self enduced by using unfold and not understanding the weight solver value (it corrects that weird perspective issue he complains about), its covered in the Maya help files, if he ever bothered to check... Always check the help files before ranting... heh.
Unfold in max is crap too, that's why no one uses it. Instead of making a bunch of crappy tools and work arounds, they fixed relax.
It's been a really long time since max's relax tools crumpled into a pile of verts or just sat there and spun, 4 maybe 5 years? If Maya's relax tools is still crap they need to get off their asses, it will clear up a lot of problems.
Max has "straighten selection" that would have squared off that barrel in one click, all of that unfolding horiz/vertical crap he does, is horrible...
Max's uv editor has one pretty big fundamental flaw, its modifier dependent not a mode. That might not seem like a big deal, until you try to transfer selection out of the editor window while modeling, or you have to apply another UVWunwrap modifier to a stack that can't easily be collapsed.
They can fix Maya's relax and LSCM tools if they ever get off their asses, but unhitching the UVWunwrap modifier from max's stack is a hell of a lot harder.
That's better, I hope it relaxes on selections iteratively? It would suck if the only way to get it relax like that is to auto unfold/arrange everything each time.
Instead of consulting PDFs and adjusting multiple sliders within submenus, I just press a button and Headus unfolds perfectly. If I want to straighten it I push another button and it straightens perfectly.
Or I could lose time using the existing tools and lose even more time hounding Autodesk to update them and then sit and hope that I get what I want in the next couple of years.
The relax tool in Maya just shrinks and distorts the UV shell beyond recognition.
It seems like noise at the end of the day, is just noise. Wouldn't supporting third party software be the kind of action that would encourage them to actually do something, since competition results in evolution?
It seems like one of those "speak with your wallet, not your mouth" kind of deals.
If was money out of their pocket it might be considered competition, but it's not. People get the plugin or script and don't say anything so they think everything is great.
A case can be made for 3rd party being an incubator for change but people should not depend on it for a lot of reasons.
Or I could lose time using the existing tools and lose even more time hounding Autodesk to update them and then sit and hope that I get what I want in the next couple of years.
The relax tool in Maya just shrinks and distorts the UV shell beyond recognition.
Yeah if I was using maya I would probably run screaming to headus to. If you never complain they'll never change it and then what happens when gradus stops working or you start working some place they won't get it?
Yeah if I was using maya I would probably run screaming to headus to. If you never complain they'll never change it and then what happens when gradus stops working or you start working some place they won't get it?
Maya UV tools are far more powerful than Max, always has been.
I have not used Max's UV tools so can't comment but Maya doesn't hold a candle to Headus. If you make cuts and hit unfold in Maya there is a high chance it will simply have a seizure.
Utter bollocks. Maya has one of the most powerful UV editors I've used, with the new tools added in the 2015 update, even more so, they just need a bit of getting used to if you have the patience
Maya UV tools are far more powerful than Max, always has been.
That's a pretty strong statement, without much proof, so I have to ask why you think that is?
How much 3dsmax experience do you have? I've used max more than Maya but I've unwrapped enough objects in Maya to know the tools pretty well. I agree that max's editor has some stupid UI choices but it also had a lot of great tools, standard for a long time while Maya is just now getting around to adding them.
That's a pretty strong statement, without much proof, so I have to ask why you think that is?
I was gonna say I used Max at an old job for quite a while, the default UV system seemed ok but I felt was stronger with something like Textools. The updates for Max over recent years (I think 2011 and upwards) made the UV system a lot better though!
That's a pretty strong statement, without much proof, so I have to ask why you think that is?
How much 3dsmax experience do you have? I've used max more than Maya but I've unwrapped enough objects in Maya to know the tools pretty well. I agree that max's editor has some stupid UI choices but it also had a lot of great tools, standard for a long time while Maya is just now getting around to adding them.
I am mainly talking about the core UV tools in both Max and Maya. I cannot compare to textools (Max) or roadkill (maya) or any other third part add-on tools.
just comparing the bare minimum, Max UV tools are extremely slow and lacks the basic UV manipulation tools in my observation.
for example, Max does not even have proper transformation gizmo inside the editor to move around UVs more efficiently. also, cycling between UVs, vertex, edges and faces are super fast in Maya. soft selection in Max is a joke.
in maya you can hold d, temporarily change move/rotate/scale pivot inside uv editor and do all that with soft-selection with adjustable radius on the fly. an organic or hard sufrace shape can be unwrapped in matter of minutes. even the process of saving out the UV layout to image (RTT in max) is quite slow in Max.
and even if all that are not an issue in recent max, the UV smudge tool(Maya) alone compensates 10 times for any other features like straighten that Maya does not have.
recent additions in Maya is nice, but i wouldn't change my statement even if i was comparing Max2009 to Maya2009. on the contrary Max's earlier versions you could not even unwrap multiple objects at once. how silly was that ?
ps. I am not an "expert" in Max but I have use it on and off from version R2.
Max does not even have proper transformation gizmo inside the editor to move around UVs more efficiently.
It has move, rotate and scale plus "freeform" which puts all three in one tool. Freeform is familiar to a lot of artists because it works a lot like the transform in photoshop and in a lot of level editors. Being able to move the pivot is pretty handy at times. What magical transform tool does Maya have?
also, cycling between UVs, vertex, edges and faces are super fast in Maya.
W, E, R, just like in the rest of max, just like Maya or use the freeform tool. If you're going to knock something knock transferring selections between vert, edge, face. You have to solve a word puzzle from the drop down menu, it's like Maya infected their brain "menus are teh awesomez" heh. Sorry couldn't resist...
In the UV editor? Yea possibly but not in the rest of max. No one uses it in the UV editor except maybe to relax a soft sel of verts. I'm curious to know what you use it for and why it's important? Max users don't complain but they could be missing something cool?
an organic or hard surface shape can be unwrapped in matter of minutes.
This is very arbitrary and can't be handled with a broad statement like that. It's almost as broad as your original statement...
There are meshes that Maya chokes on and has long work arounds to fix and vice versa.
If I model with UV/Material seams in mind like everyone should do, I can unwrap any object in one click with "explode by smoothing or material".
You can map LSCM Solve (quick peel) to a hotkey. So you can blast through a model without ever opening the UV editor.
In the viewport: click, key, click, key, click, key, pack done.
It helps that you can select large amounts of faces by angle, material and smoothing.
even the process of saving out the UV layout to image (RTT in max) is quite slow in Max.
You don't use RTT to render UV templates. I mean you can, but like you said its not an easy path. Instead you should use the UVW editor > Tools > Render UV template.
Speaking of baking maps...
Maya only operates in UV (horiz/vertical) space, Max has W space (depth, forward/back) which makes stacking shells easy because it will render the one shell that is "forward" or on top of all the others.
In Maya any overlapping shells needs to be offset outside of the rendering area, then moved back. God help you if you forget...
In max they are all in the same spot, stacked on top of each other, easy to select and easy to move around. They are just ordered in a way that they render correctly.
That right there saves a monumental amount of time and headache.
and even if all that are not an issue in recent max, the UV smudge tool(Maya) alone compensates 10 times for any other features like straighten that Maya does not have.
"Tweak in View" in the unwrap modifier lets you smudge the texture around on the model in the viewport, you don't have to bounce back and forth between the editor and the viewport, its happening right on the model. Also Preserve UV's in edit poly lets you do the same thing without ever opening the UVW editor.
recent additions in Maya is nice, but i wouldn't change my statement even if i was comparing Max2009 to Maya2009. on the contrary Max's earlier versions you could not even unwrap multiple objects at once. how silly was that ?
They added instanced modifiers in 3dsMax2008, that was 7 years ago, that's stretching pretty far back... but yes, 7 years ago the work around was kind of onerous and I'm glad they fixed it, 7 years ago.
PM me if you're interested in discussing this further.
What I miss from max the most is to be able to select uvs by angle. Mark has made a good point about exploding the uvs by smoothing group which is very quick. You could get it done within Maya in a similar fashion, by assigning Normal angle on the mesh first> planar the object on an angle> select with hard edge constraint> then detach uvs from edge and the run unfold(options none)> Done.
There is one thing I wish to see Max do, is to be able to move/scale/rotate the uvs with the middle mouse click.
Just to clear things up, you can in fact change the pivot point in Max 2012 later versions using the Freeform tool to manually place the pivot, or using the presets for pivot change on the panel on the right.
That was a feature that XSI actually had which was really nice and quick, I don't remember the shortcut, but when you pressed that while being in subobject mode like vertex, you could place a temporary pivot point, either freehand or snap it to something, like a vertex, and all your actions like rotation will be relative to that, until you 'released' it. It was really handy and intuitive.
I honestly don't mind the arguing (within reason); often times someone will mention a tool that I've not tried/known of before that is really useful!
exactly. i dont see why we can't have a constructive and informative discussion about Autodesk tools in a discussion thread about Autodesk.
i would love to be proven wrong about Max UV tools, and I am open to learning like anyone else.
@ Mark, I wont start comparing to other feature like baking since we all know there are countless problems on both sides if we start comparing feature by feature.
I just strongly believe Maya UV tools are very efficient compared to Max not because of specific UV unwrap features but simply because of how maya handles transformation, soft selection, etc.
Maya transform gizmo seems just more precise and intuitive.
Soft selection
Temp pivots:
UV Smudge Tool (you were talking about something different i believe, but tweak mode and preserve UVs are in Maya as well)
if there is anything similar to maya's smudge tool in Max i would love to know, because this tool alone saves me a lot of time and hassle.
Just to clear things up, you can in fact change the pivot point in Max 2012 later versions using the Freeform tool to manually place the pivot, or using the presets for pivot change on the panel on the right.
yes, but i believe it cannot scale from that custom pivot in the freeform mode. also how do you just move on one axis in the freeform mode ?
all of these features have been in since Max 2009, maybe even Max 8. 8 was the earliest I put any serious work into, I did some max stuff in 2002 but I was a noob and barely remember it.
Max UV Transforms
Soft Selection
Temporary Pivots
I've seen a uv select paint tool in later versions, would it be possible to use that as a basis for a smudge brush script?
It seems like a lot of people have the "I used it 10 years ago and it stunk" syndrome. I haven't used Maya since 5 and the tools where garbage, I had to borrow & write all of my own tools in melscript.]
yes, but i believe it cannot scale from that custom pivot in the freeform mode. also how do you just move on one axis in the freeform mode ?
If you want to restrict to one axis, hold shift while moving. If you want to uniform scale, hold control, if you want to uniform scale from the pivot hold control and alt. It pretty much behaves like Photoshops free transform just slightly different hotkeys.
Justin, how did you adjust the scale of the soft select interactively like that? Haven't figured out how to do that in Max yet, does it work in viewport as well when you are modeling?
Replies
"Small Annoying Things
With the understanding that small things can make a big difference, 3ds Max
2015 addresses up to ten minor workflow obstacles identified as high priority
by customers. Among these are the ability to preserve UVs for Inset Polygons;
the ability to slide partials loops in Swift Loops; and adaptive viewport
navigation for smarter zooming, panning, and orbiting. "
http://areadownloads.autodesk.com/oc/2015releases/Whats_New_in_Autodesk_3ds_Max_2015.pdf
You are amazing!
No, but Maya's Python implementation got off to a rocky start and I expected Max's too as well. And as I mentioned, the extensions are more like beta tests and smoother/better workflows come out at release.
Unifying the keyboard shortcuts and workflow with other common elments inside of max, would really save a lot of time.
Double click to select loops.
Shift click to select rings.
Convert selections between modes by holding ctrl and clicking the new mode.
Transfer more than face selection out of the UV editor and into edit poly.
RE-ENABLE THE SAVING OF TOOL DEFAULTS on floating windows like Relax, the "save default" button was removed in 2010 and ever since you can't save over the default.
Allow some modeling tools like swift loop to work in the uv editor window.
I could go on for pages and pages... and I have... so forget it.
Maya has recently had or will soon have: new modeling tools with improved mirroring, booleans and refined standard tools, creasing/new subdiv algorithm, and a complete overhaul of the UV editor.
Slightly older updates had what? Viewport 2.0 and a new UI scheme?
Of course this is all from the perspective of an aspiring environment artist. For all I know there has been a jaw-dropping revolution in animation tools or offline rendering.
That is some really cool stuff for modeling!!
Maya in v2014 and now in v2015 really jumped ahead a lot! Hope to see this kind of progress(and more?) in the future!
Couldn't agree more!
I dabbled with it a little but it didn't feel like $300 worth of magic. What am I missing?
The interface resembles windows 95 and the controls are quirky BUT, in my opinion the unfolding algorithm is bulletproof. Make cuts, drop to UV space, push button, done.
It's so reliable that if it fails to unwrap a complex shell instantly then 9 times out 10 I know that I have messed up the cuts.
Also it unwraps everything at a fixed texture density, gives you a temperature gauge on how distorted the UVs are (green/red) and has good tools for straightening UV islands / relaxing and other things.
It can tell you how much UV space you are using/wasting in %
The main drawback I have found is that you have to leave the 3D package, so if you have messed up the geometry somewhere you cant just fix it and resume, you have to go back and re-export/import.
What pegbird said was spot on. But more importantly for me, it makes UVing a lot more visual; it feels a bit more 'artistic' and fun in a weird way.
[ame="
What problems do you run into with Max's relax?
How is Headus's relax algorithm better?
Do you have some examples?
Except you have to export as .obj, open another app and then export it from headus and import it back into your main app. They have some plug-ins for Maya and SoftImage but how long will Headus maintain those? What if they break with the next update and Headus decides its not worth it? Now you're stuck.
Max has very similar tools (mostly added as a response to Headus);
Peel: It actively relaxes as you select edges and break.
Point to Point Edge Selection: Smart man's pelt mapping. Use it to draw your seams on your mesh, break and relax.
Quick Peel: You select faces, hit the button and BAM instantly detached and relaxed shell. None of that wonky export as obj, fire up another program bs.
Explode along; smoothing, face angle, material IDs: It arranges the pieces about as well as Headus which in either app requires some work after the fact.
About the only thing headus has is a nifty heat map (neat but not that cool) and some rudimentary symmetry tools for perfectly symmetrical models. Put symmetry modifier on top of UVWUnwrap and you've got the same magic. Like Justin said, not 300 worth of cool...
It's better for everyone if we push Autodesk to actually make their software better rather than let them think everything is fine and doesn't need to be fixed or updated.
Raise some noise, rattle some gates and get the tools you want in the programs you use. Save yourself from convoluted workflows. Save yourself and future employers some cash by not making your personal pipeline dependent on 3rd party software that may not be kept up to date and might stop working at some point.
The one button send in / out for Max is in a script (and reasonably version agnostic). It was originally made by a third party and maintained that way (rflecthr, maiuu have all touched it iirc).
For a few years I used UVLayout all the time, but in the year or so have just stayed in Max. The tools are pretty good at this point -- that is a solid LSCM implementation and a good relax. I pretty much get all I need out of that. The flexibility of staying in your modeling application is pretty worthwhile.
I do mainly 3rd person weapons, so organics might need more magic from the relax algorithm.
Is it different from the "show edge distortion" option under Display in the Edit UVW window?
I have not used Max's UV tools so can't comment but Maya doesn't hold a candle to Headus. If you make cuts and hit unfold in Maya there is a high chance it will simply have a seizure. I had to consult this video to understand how to use the native tools and look at all the pissing about he is doing just to unwrap some basic shapes:
http://vimeo.com/16590844
I would prefer to stay in the 3D package and have a simpler workflow, everybody would, but right now it is not efficient.
Thats why these 3rd party tools are created in the first place, because the existing ones are not up to scratch.
Autodesk appear to have finally responded, as they have completely re-written the UV tools for Maya 2015:
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But how long has that taken?
...instead of adding Maya compatibility into Mudbox and bloat it with the options that are not relevant to non-Maya users, then just add it completely into Maya and keep it clean!
And i don't mean here on adding it to Maya and kill it. I mean something like it's with BodyPaint 3D. Integrated and standalone version.
That would be cool!
Unfold in max is crap too, that's why no one uses it. Instead of making a bunch of crappy tools and work arounds, they fixed relax.
It's been a really long time since max's relax tools crumpled into a pile of verts or just sat there and spun, 4 maybe 5 years? If Maya's relax tools is still crap they need to get off their asses, it will clear up a lot of problems.
Max has "straighten selection" that would have squared off that barrel in one click, all of that unfolding horiz/vertical crap he does, is horrible...
Max's uv editor has one pretty big fundamental flaw, its modifier dependent not a mode. That might not seem like a big deal, until you try to transfer selection out of the editor window while modeling, or you have to apply another UVWunwrap modifier to a stack that can't easily be collapsed.
They can fix Maya's relax and LSCM tools if they ever get off their asses, but unhitching the UVWunwrap modifier from max's stack is a hell of a lot harder.
That's better, I hope it relaxes on selections iteratively? It would suck if the only way to get it relax like that is to auto unfold/arrange everything each time.
I wish more modeling apps would mimic what Headus UVLayout does when you hit the 'R' key ... bang, rectangular unwrap if at all possible. And it's good at determining if it's possible...
Once I'm done with Headus, it's still pretty easy to just import the model back into Max and either finalize some things or just re-export as an FBX.
It seems like noise at the end of the day, is just noise. Wouldn't supporting third party software be the kind of action that would encourage them to actually do something, since competition results in evolution?
It seems like one of those "speak with your wallet, not your mouth" kind of deals.
Instead of consulting PDFs and adjusting multiple sliders within submenus, I just press a button and Headus unfolds perfectly. If I want to straighten it I push another button and it straightens perfectly.
Or I could lose time using the existing tools and lose even more time hounding Autodesk to update them and then sit and hope that I get what I want in the next couple of years.
The relax tool in Maya just shrinks and distorts the UV shell beyond recognition.
A case can be made for 3rd party being an incubator for change but people should not depend on it for a lot of reasons.
Yeah if I was using maya I would probably run screaming to headus to. If you never complain they'll never change it and then what happens when gradus stops working or you start working some place they won't get it?
Maya UV tools are far more powerful than Max, always has been.
Utter bollocks. Maya has one of the most powerful UV editors I've used, with the new tools added in the 2015 update, even more so, they just need a bit of getting used to if you have the patience
That's a pretty strong statement, without much proof, so I have to ask why you think that is?
How much 3dsmax experience do you have? I've used max more than Maya but I've unwrapped enough objects in Maya to know the tools pretty well. I agree that max's editor has some stupid UI choices but it also had a lot of great tools, standard for a long time while Maya is just now getting around to adding them.
I was gonna say I used Max at an old job for quite a while, the default UV system seemed ok but I felt was stronger with something like Textools. The updates for Max over recent years (I think 2011 and upwards) made the UV system a lot better though!
I am mainly talking about the core UV tools in both Max and Maya. I cannot compare to textools (Max) or roadkill (maya) or any other third part add-on tools.
just comparing the bare minimum, Max UV tools are extremely slow and lacks the basic UV manipulation tools in my observation.
for example, Max does not even have proper transformation gizmo inside the editor to move around UVs more efficiently. also, cycling between UVs, vertex, edges and faces are super fast in Maya. soft selection in Max is a joke.
in maya you can hold d, temporarily change move/rotate/scale pivot inside uv editor and do all that with soft-selection with adjustable radius on the fly. an organic or hard sufrace shape can be unwrapped in matter of minutes. even the process of saving out the UV layout to image (RTT in max) is quite slow in Max.
and even if all that are not an issue in recent max, the UV smudge tool(Maya) alone compensates 10 times for any other features like straighten that Maya does not have.
recent additions in Maya is nice, but i wouldn't change my statement even if i was comparing Max2009 to Maya2009. on the contrary Max's earlier versions you could not even unwrap multiple objects at once. how silly was that ?
ps. I am not an "expert" in Max but I have use it on and off from version R2.
W, E, R, just like in the rest of max, just like Maya or use the freeform tool. If you're going to knock something knock transferring selections between vert, edge, face. You have to solve a word puzzle from the drop down menu, it's like Maya infected their brain "menus are teh awesomez" heh. Sorry couldn't resist...
In the UV editor? Yea possibly but not in the rest of max. No one uses it in the UV editor except maybe to relax a soft sel of verts. I'm curious to know what you use it for and why it's important? Max users don't complain but they could be missing something cool?
This is very arbitrary and can't be handled with a broad statement like that. It's almost as broad as your original statement...
There are meshes that Maya chokes on and has long work arounds to fix and vice versa.
If I model with UV/Material seams in mind like everyone should do, I can unwrap any object in one click with "explode by smoothing or material".
You can map LSCM Solve (quick peel) to a hotkey. So you can blast through a model without ever opening the UV editor.
In the viewport: click, key, click, key, click, key, pack done.
It helps that you can select large amounts of faces by angle, material and smoothing.
You don't use RTT to render UV templates. I mean you can, but like you said its not an easy path. Instead you should use the UVW editor > Tools > Render UV template.
Speaking of baking maps...
Maya only operates in UV (horiz/vertical) space, Max has W space (depth, forward/back) which makes stacking shells easy because it will render the one shell that is "forward" or on top of all the others.
In Maya any overlapping shells needs to be offset outside of the rendering area, then moved back. God help you if you forget...
In max they are all in the same spot, stacked on top of each other, easy to select and easy to move around. They are just ordered in a way that they render correctly.
That right there saves a monumental amount of time and headache.
"Tweak in View" in the unwrap modifier lets you smudge the texture around on the model in the viewport, you don't have to bounce back and forth between the editor and the viewport, its happening right on the model. Also Preserve UV's in edit poly lets you do the same thing without ever opening the UVW editor. They added instanced modifiers in 3dsMax2008, that was 7 years ago, that's stretching pretty far back... but yes, 7 years ago the work around was kind of onerous and I'm glad they fixed it, 7 years ago.
PM me if you're interested in discussing this further.
There is one thing I wish to see Max do, is to be able to move/scale/rotate the uvs with the middle mouse click.
Just to clear things up, you can in fact change the pivot point in Max 2012 later versions using the Freeform tool to manually place the pivot, or using the presets for pivot change on the panel on the right.
exactly. i dont see why we can't have a constructive and informative discussion about Autodesk tools in a discussion thread about Autodesk.
i would love to be proven wrong about Max UV tools, and I am open to learning like anyone else.
@ Mark, I wont start comparing to other feature like baking since we all know there are countless problems on both sides if we start comparing feature by feature.
I just strongly believe Maya UV tools are very efficient compared to Max not because of specific UV unwrap features but simply because of how maya handles transformation, soft selection, etc.
Maya transform gizmo seems just more precise and intuitive.
Soft selection
Temp pivots:
UV Smudge Tool (you were talking about something different i believe, but tweak mode and preserve UVs are in Maya as well)
if there is anything similar to maya's smudge tool in Max i would love to know, because this tool alone saves me a lot of time and hassle.
yes, but i believe it cannot scale from that custom pivot in the freeform mode. also how do you just move on one axis in the freeform mode ?
Max UV Transforms
Soft Selection
Temporary Pivots
I've seen a uv select paint tool in later versions, would it be possible to use that as a basis for a smudge brush script?
It seems like a lot of people have the "I used it 10 years ago and it stunk" syndrome. I haven't used Maya since 5 and the tools where garbage, I had to borrow & write all of my own tools in melscript.]
bonus:
If you want to restrict to one axis, hold shift while moving. If you want to uniform scale, hold control, if you want to uniform scale from the pivot hold control and alt. It pretty much behaves like Photoshops free transform just slightly different hotkeys.