Tournament Ticket Item Bundles - Discussion
polycounter lvl 6
How you feel about the current state of item bundles? Right now we seem to be getting multiple tickets with item bundles each week, so many that it seems to dwarf the ammount of submissions being accepted without tickets. So, pretty straight forward, how do you feel about this, what are your thoughts?
Replies
Most of the players who use the shop that I know entirely ignore the tickets and feel that they 'get in the way' of the new items they are looking at.
For me, I think it is strange that you have to give 'free stuff' to people for them to watch a sport that they are apparently interested in. I would be very interested in the amount of tickets that don't get used because they were purchased for a 'free' cosmetic. I don't know if it is true, but the feeling I get is that Valve are really desperate to make Dota 2 a really successful e-sport (and best of luck to them) but if they give tournament runners free rein to implement cosmetics that would be otherwise rejected, then there is a problem with the system. And I understand artists will use this system to improve their chances of having items accepted. I understand that too, some of the creators here rely on this process for their income.
In short, I don't particularly like it. A lot of the items seem a little inappropriate or mismatched to the ticket but at the same time I can see why every party involved likes the system.
-Valve gets more Dota viewers, this means more money and an elevation in the e-sports arena.
-Tournament managers sell more tickets
-Creators get items in that they might not have gotten in otherwise.
-Viewers get free cosmetics.
-Pro players make themselves a bigger name from winning smaller tournaments.
As far as I can see it, me not liking it a lot isn't really going to be worth anything compared to the value that it brings to those involved.
Basically I can't figure out who loses in this situation so I'm more-or-less fine with it.
I think it's absolutely critical that tournament (and player/caster) items are held to at least the same standard if not a higher standard than regular workshop standard.
This! I cant put it any better. Right on Spuds!
Of course, but the frequency of that happening is much higher in the case of tournaments/casters/player than through the normal store.
I think thats where I started having a problem with it, I don't mind ticket bundles at all, I think it's a great way for organizations to earn some money and stay afloat which in all, only helps progress esports has a whole. If valve treated it with some balance I probably wouldn't have a problem at all with it, but right now it feels that the only way to get something accepted is through a ticket.
Personally, I say we start a workshop dota 2 league and bundle it with an item from every person on the workshop. :thumbup:
Seriously thought most sets/items/couriers have nothing in common with players/organizations that they are bundled with so as well could be selected from workshop pool of items. If there would be any quality control than Valve should force on tournament organizers some more strict rules. Other idea would be to give some kind of certificate to some users with hi quality of works so they could produce items for tournaments/organizers in that way Valve could be more or less sure that their standards will be held, however would this not be to cruel?
@Konras
Yeah, that's a slippery slope where you could end up creating an "old boys club" of certified artists.
That's the other side of the problem I have. I love working with organizations and creating something that echos their style or theme. I can't stand when I watch an organiztion pluck a workshop cosmetic because "they like it" or "it looks cool". I personally feel that working with an organization needs to feel more like a colaboration then a way to cheat the system and use it as an excuse to get an item in game. But this is just my own personal opinions, maybe I'm alone here. #yolo :poly142:
You're absolutely right! I hate that idea of tournament organizers just "buying out" an item that is already done, and also the artists "selling" it to them. I think that collaborating is something much more interesting and bound to reward better results. I got some offers to bundle some items with tickets which I refused because of that. I really don't like just bundling my item with a ticket to get it ingame after working so hard on it, when the organization did nothing to help along the creation process.
Of course it would piss off some people ... but not the artists. And the workshop was initially tailored for artists and not sponsors anyways ...
Now of course this shouldn't prevent organizations from teaming up behind the scenes with artists in order to come up with a cool idea/design. But at least it would level the playing field immensely.
And I would even suppose that the community as a whole wouldn't mind. Dota2 fans are very attached to the lore being respected, so, I could imagine them being behind the idea...
and
Basically those sum up alot of my thoughts. So I've only done 2 courier tourney items, but they were my last two, and they vastly different experiences. I'd say one was not a very good experience, but I learned alot about how these tourney deals go, while the other felt way more natural like a normal process.
Personally, the only reasons I took up the projects were to compete with the "pressure" of not having anything entered into the store, or the fear that my stuff might not make it. My basic thought process was that if I keep my standard of quality throughout the tourney pieces, they might get more PR, which would be a catalyst for entering the store. What I didn't realize getting into it was, expedited deadlines, minimal critique besides "wow thats neat".
All of this is kind of funny too when it comes to my stance on the whole dota thing, and how I always say "don't expect it to get in, just make the art and be happy with it.". I'd like to say that I won't do them anymore, and just make things I want to make, but it's hard to say no when student loans are a hell of a drug, and dat supplemental income.
I think the original thought that I'll bring to the conversation is that it's always irked me that I feel like content creators take a hit financially on the items. I don't see it as a symbiotic relationship. We always have the opportunity to make the items and just enter them, their event comes once in a blue moon, or blue sun(or red moon!, #jokes). 50/50 content creator/league is "fair" from what I've heard, but is that really fair? Like that 50/50 is only of the quarter or so left over after valve takes their cut (from what I understand). So that means even if you do everything yourself, you are only getting 12.6% or so after everything (meaning per ticket you get 12.6% of Z dollar amount), and this usually means you would concept, model, texture,rig,animate,promotion,video, cry. Now lets divide this by X amount of team members. Is it worth it? I don't know honestly, its obviously an "acceptable" business model, but maybe I am naive. #sus #froyolo
This goes back to something I typed up to Valve on that service provider thread. All organizations worth anything, meaning they have at least two successful seasons under their belt, in my opinion, should be on that list. There is no reason in my eyes that says Na'Vi, Alliance, D2L, Dreamleague, ESL, even Dota Cinema shouldn't be on that list given their very active use of the workshop.
Merry Christmas!
Although, it seems like the thread is pretty dead. Spam session anyone? Haha! :thumbup:
Meaning that no matter how much % is allocated to a given service provider, the content creators (= artists actually making the item) are guaranteed to get their full 25% of the revenues generated by the item in the store. That part of the workshop system is fantastic, and it was obviously put in place in order to support the content creators and not the middle men.
Let me guess short deadlines, tournament is set up, all that is remaining is an item/set/courier to boost the sales. So host finds creator, give them 2 weeks to prepare something. Of course valve will not object, everything is set up, ticket will go live in about next 2 weeks. This is called TRUST that Valve gave to tournament hosts so they would be somewhat responsible for quality of those bundles, but we all can see what we have ended up with.
Point about creative collaboration process is also naive, lets face it pro players or most organizations don't know much about design... you as an artist that should be responsible for high quality of item they asked you to bundle with that ticket.
Currently I am working on a set for tournament. Why am I doing this? Mostly because everyone is doing this. Somewhat because its a new tournament and I wanted to help in what I believe is a good cause for a whole scene to grow. A little bit out of curiosity. Do I get some kind of feedback from them? Yes, more than I expected. Do I need it? Probably no. How it will gonna work out? I am more curious than anyone.
The point of this thread however isnt so much about items being 100% guaranteed, it's an accepted fact that it isn't guaranteed, but about how it seems that tickets are the only thing we're seeing getting added.
http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=235913595
You don't even need to attach any screenshots or videos (5 days on workshop but who knows maybe PC exploded just before uploading promo materials
Its great to see a discussion on this, its healthy that everyone is asking questions and considering if this the right way for valve to approach things.
Personally I think Tournament 'Gear' should be held to the same standards as all other accepted content, yet its not my game and it is Valves, its their business.
The idea of a 'Polycount League ticket is awesome', at least a great way to demonstrate how the artists here want to share their content in dota and are frustrated at the seeming shift in focus by Valve.
While there is money at stake there will always be someone to knock out quick work for tournaments. As others have already pointed out, its not a smart long term strategy -for Valve, quality will lower and the audience will likely become aware.
So I expect things to change, hopefully soon.
All carry, all mid, right?
Basically, I am not against the idea of bundling items with tournament tickets, or similar associations with third parties. I think in itself it's great, especially if it can benefit both parties and make everybody win and get better. I have been thinking about that a lot lately, wondering wether or not I should try such a collaboration just to see how it goes. It's a pretty interesting opportunity and as stated by others above, it seems quite profitable too.
However I do believe that it is impacting the approval process, even if just a bit, and that's a problem. Third parties somehow found a way to sneak in inside the Workshop approval process and I find it surprising that Valve allowed it in such a proportion. It would be great if the acceptance of an item to be bundled with a ticket was totally unrelated to the nearing date of a tournament, for instance. Valve could even go as far as not allowing any visible associations between Workshop creators and third parties until *after* an item is accepted. That would level the field entirely.
But that's probably not going to happen, so, another way would be to basically beat third parties to their own game by using a similar tactic, but in reverse. Stating loud and clear when a workshop item is *not* being associated with any third parties ; meaning that the entirety of the workshop revenue (25% of sales) goes directly to the content creators, supporting them and allowing them to create more cool items in the future. Basically, a "Fair Trade" system for Workshop contributors.
Something like this disclaimer, inserted in the body of item pages :
Now I am not saying that it is the perfect solution (it is too lengthy and I suppose that some people might not really understand what it's about) ... Just trying to find ways to emphasize the hard work of very dedicated artists putting so much effort into the workshop.
Agreed. My biggest gripe with this ticket bypass is how some low quality items (Neotolic Penguin comes to mind) or really lore-crushing stuff get a free greenlight into the item pool. As mentioned, short datelines and preferences of clients get involved so it complicated the matter further. It has become a "if you don't listen to the client, then you don't get paid" situation.
Not sure what Valve can do aside from more treasure boxes and Blacksmith's Blessing-style bundles to diffuse the backlog of good Workshop entries.
On item quality, been seeing people updating older, accepted items (most recently, the Na'Vi Weaselcrow!) and I think it should happen more often. Still got a bone to pick with the ol' Ice Crystal Bow, the first offender in the game:
well, i mean, tournament item is not gurantee 100% will be in workshop. ( but of course normally i post the design here before it is finalized :P cause i know everyone have different opinion to voice out then i improvise it hehe)
Meanwhile, I'd like to check something : do item pages support formatting options like UBB image inserts and rich text, or are these limited to collection pages alone ? I tried doing some test earlier but go inconsistent results ...
(Especially since Valve talks so much in their slides about how fantastic it is that artists can make a living from UGC ... and yet they are OK with these artists seeing 50% of their revenue taken from them and going to a third party.)
In the end don't forget that money from selling tickets goes to prize pool directly or indirectly and organization costs, salaries for casters and so on. Most tournament are held by many more people than one artist that makes a set for such occasion. Like it or not but in those situations we as artist are less important in hierarchy.
It could work for big tournaments with sponsors where ticket is a secondary matter so artist can get most out of it, but some tournaments don't have sponsors and ticket revenue is only thing they got. At least it how I see it. Correct me if I am wrong? I am just to confused about all of this.
@Pior for some reason workshop pages dont display BBCODE coretly from a week or something like this. Maybe Valve has limited this somehow.
For example:
img /img will work and you will have image displayed, but
url img /img /url will not and you will not see the image but will have just a text link... weird.
It was working corectly for quite a long time. I have started to use it in a way to add little images with links to other parts to get an effect similar to collection page. Who knows maybe Valve did not like that.
but 62,5volvo/ 12,5tourguys /25artists. the tourguys would not get a single dollar less then they are getting now. just the artist is getting more and volvo less
ps: @konras try that code:
<edit i pn-ed u the code>
i just tryed it and it works.
TI3 Chests. According to the Bangouts.
There's gotta be a reason that Valve hasn't added any new items since the spring event. New contest? Another giant update?
You know, I was thinking today while eating a slice of fantastic pizza from Al Capriccios. I can't help but feel they don't want to overstaturate the market with too many items at one time.
Back when the dota 2 workshop started you might see several sets implemented in a week with none tied to a tournament. That slowly started to change as esports became more involved with the workshop, but what hasnt is the ammount of sets they would implement at a given time, it's always remained somewhat consistant.
I almost feel that now what we're looking at is so many tournament tickets with sets being implemented that it's now phasing/pushing out the individual artist. These tickets items, more then likely, get priority since many are planned months in advanced as a perk to get people to buy the ticket. We've seen that both work for ang against these organizations.
Which could also explain valves recent attempt to create 'set chests' as a way to bring the individual artist back into the picture.
Or I'm totally wrong, which is ok too. :thumbup:
#dotoconspiraciestheory
but yea, right now regular sets are still getting in about every month, which was how it was exactly before.
I don't think that's good for anyone except the tournament organizers. The end users get worse sets coming from smaller tournaments and artists who bundle with tickets make less.
I think Valve should find other ways for tournament organizers to be able to profit from tickets without relying on artists to make sets and items for them which cuts unaffiliated artists out and cuts into the profits of the ones that do join up with tournaments. I think it was a good idea at the beginning, but now it's too widespread and is becoming a problem. I guess fantasy league compendiums are a small step toward that.
Even though I've had success in the past, I now feel pressured to join up with an organization just to get my items through.
..Um. What money.
From an artists point of view (looking at a freelance background here) there is NO incentive/reason ever to do the work because there is such a low $ payout for the service we provide. What service is this? We provide the swag. In smaller tourneys, the swag is the hype. Its the difference between 500 people ticket and 3000 tickets. We boost their sales, and then,We get a pretty minuscule cut of the rewards. If someone commissions something from you, you should definitely get learned on what is deserved to you as an artist. (spoiler alert, it's almost slave labor.)
I know that you were pointing it out from the tourney's P.O.V, but it's a business, of course there is an incentive to get AAA standard art for 20 cents a ticket.
So now that we have ruled out that this thread is even remotely about making #cashMoney off ticket bundles, lets get to the knitty gritty. The way I see it, our discussion so far has been about the perspective of the artist/workshop environment and how the nature is changing due to ticket bundles. We don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that the tourney is getting the better deal.
So lets talk about items. Lets talk workshop. Let's talk acceptance rate..
I JUST got a courier in game on the 14th that was attached to a bundle. Would he had gotten in without a ticket. Probably not at all. However you say,
How is that possible? How is it that a dude who is as talented as Kraken has to switch an entire work cycle/pipeline just to get noticed. How is it that "par" couriers can get thrown into game willy nilly if they are attached to a ticket?
Why are sets not held to the same standard as couriers / vice versa.
Quite honestly I don't care too much(im in this to make art and meet cool people), and I have several other personal opinions about the whole thing, and I feel blessed that I have something in game, but when I see someone say that the state of the workshop with all of these ticket items is "okay" it really is frustrating, knowing how much effort some amazing artists I consider friends put into work, just to see them be surpassed by a ticket.
Am I insane for thinking that this is clearly a problem?
How much manpower is being taken up over at Valve to get all of these sets implemented regularly on top of the rest of their workload? How does that impact the addition of cosmetics that aren't under any time constraints?
I've witnessed firsthand some shady business with these bundles on the financial side of things. I'm not totally sure how much was deliberate misleading or just honest mistakes, but it's left me feeling a little apprehensive about these deals in general.
Until recently I didn't really care too much about tickets being bundled with crappy sets, since if the organizations selling them are scraping the bottom of the barrel, it's their own problem when they create no extra incentive to purchase their tickets. But as I see more and more bundled items going in with tickets in each update, the more I think about the finite resource of time and wonder how many other things aren't getting sold because of them.
We're now seeing teams and other organizations wanting to get in on the workshop action despite not being involved in the art themselves. They know there's money to be made, and they'll try to make as much as they can.
The TF2 workshop has its problems, and now Dota has some unique ones of its own. It was only a matter of time, I guess. It's a learning experience for all of us, and it requires a careful balance.
Like balancing on one foot during an earthquake v:
This will be the downfall of the workshop. Quote me, quoting it.
Dude, I feel the same way, it's incredible, not to mention how long it's been since a single ward or courier was implemented into the workshop without a ticket bundle. I can't help but think that I have to cut deals with organizations to get items implemented when in the past this wasn't the case.
A few workshop artist and I were having a discussion on ways that we could 'fix' the current problem we're having given that Valve wants to continue building esports as a brand. However, as it stands right now, valve is putting all the financial weight on workshop artist and personally, this should not be the case. If Valve wants to continue to push it, then some of the responsibility should also be shared by them.
On top of this, as it is right now, freely allowing these companies to act as another contributor has spawned all sorts of terrible business practices that we are slowly fixing. The main issue being organization browsing the workshop and picking out whichever set they can find for the lowest deal to bundle with their upcoming ticket, which also means artist are activly being taken advantage of. I've witnessed and been subject to this type of treatment.
The solution we have eliminates that completely by, more or less, setting a fixed limit companies can take, treating them no different than a glorified service provider. This changes the concept of "finding the best deal" to "I like this artist, and I'd like to work with them". While the latter might be true for larger companies, smaller ones, like the one's valve wants to help build, need the revenue generated from ticket sales to distribute to its casters and workers and as such need a larger cut.
Right now we're looking at.
70% Valve
25% Workshop Artist
5% Service Provider.
The proposal, in order to make it fair and balanced, would be to remove 5% from valve, and 5% from the workshop artist, making the new split
65% Valve
20% Workshop Artist
5% Service Provider
10% Brand of your Choice
Brands dictated by Valve would be treated no different then service providers by simply picking them, or adding their account to the 'brand' slot of the revenue share. Removing 5% from Valve, and 5% from Workshop artist means the financial responsibility is now held by both parties. Negoating prices for service will be instantly removed from the equation, which also helps prevent scammers from taking advantage of the workshop.
The fixed 10% Brand Share is no different then the previously splitting the current revenue share with the company at a ratio of 60% for the artist, 40% for the organization. The main difference being us not taking all of the financial responsibility.
I've also played with other proposals such as removing the service provider option on branded items and reallocating that percent to the company, and still removing 5% from us. It achieves the same results as mentioned earlier without Valve sacrificing any percent. And I imagine Valve doesn't want to give up anymore of their share.
In all, the main point of the proposal is to streamline the branded cosmetic process by removing them from the workshop revenue share, because as it stands now, it's a complete mess.
Feel free to expand on this or destory it.
Cheers!
This is spot on!
Just think of tournament sets and regular sets as two completely different leagues, they do not effect each other in any way. If you can give me an example where Valve went a month without adding regular sets, then my mind would be changed, but I dont think thats the case.
The Only issue i see with these touranemnt sets is that the game is getting saturated with cosmeticsss, which is becoming quite annoying.
Maybe to solve this issue, they should have a prize pool threshold to include a set with a tournament ticket? maybe 20,000$ prize pool will make a tournament eligable for cosmetic item bundle?
^^This. Would solve a problem in no time. Seriously $300 prize pool is like a scam to earn on cosmetic sales bundle with ticket. I could make a $300 price pool tournament and bundle my set with it haha... I see such logic here. Maybe it should be some triers for example.
<$1,000 single item
<$3,000 HUD
<$5,000 Ward
<$8,0000 Set
<$10,000 Courier
>$10,000 Bigger Bundle
Just an example. Of course $10,000 would allow to bundle HUD but $3,000 would not allow to bundle Courier.
In the end that would not work out because most tournament Hosts are lazy and want stuff done for yesterday and they don't care haha
Tieing it to the prize pool is a bit silly, some smaller organization who have strong solid history within a smaller community would be completly left out. Not every tournament with a small prize pool is trying to scam the workshop artist, some are trying to build an honest community.
Not to mention, if there is a small organization local to me and I feel the need or want to pitch in and offer my services to create a cosmetic like a courier or set to bundle. Setting restrictions would prevent that from happening, even if I willing put forth the effort to create something large for a smaller organization. Simply put, it isn't fair to the little guys, and a few scammers shouldn't interfere with that.
You can't prevent scammers, they'll always find loopholes. :thumbup:
I've talked to a fair share of hosts, many I try and keep in touch with, others I'd rather never talk to again. There's no need to judge an entire sector simply because you had a some bad experiences.