This would be great - as mentioned the current 3DSMax and Maya DOTA2 shaders, while great, don't behave in-game exactly as they do in the 3D app (spec, gloss and metalness especially) meaning lots of slow, manual tweaking (tweak/ save/ reload/ test) in the game editor AFTER you've "finalised" your textures.
If the shader matched the actual DOTA 2 shader that would be great and a real time save. If it could somehow pull the material values (specular strength, gloss values etc.) right from each hero's .VMT files (which are very human readable and easy to understand) in the DOTA2 game folders that would be AMAZING and make Marmoset a complete one-stop solution!
Yeah, if it could properly match the Dota2 shader as it is in-game, that would be pretty amazing.
Especially if you could have setting presets for each hero (they all have different rim light colours and falloffs, texture ramps, values, etc - defined in the vtf, all items for the hero use the same values as the hero themselves).
The tweak/save/import/check/repeat loop is a real pain - if this could eliminate that tedium, I'd buy Toolbag in an instant
Ok cool, so it seems like shader support, and shader accuracy is real important. I'm not sure how closely we can match it due to being a totally different engine, but our modular shader system is pretty flexible.
Animations: Currently TB2 does not support animations in any form (its a feature we plan to add later) so animated mesh import is unlikely. This is something we could look into but likely way down the line. What sort of file format would you need supported? Would this mean loading a proprietary source engine format? If so thats probably even more unlikely.
Importing posed characters: What sort of access do you guys have to the default models? I see you're using max/maya shaders, so theoretically you should just be able to export a posed FBX or OBJ directly from your 3d app of choice.
Loading VTM files/per character material settings: We'll have to look into the feasibility here, even if we can't do this, preset material files can be created in TB2 (this is something you guys could even do as well).
Rendering/presentation specific stuff: Some of this we already have going, like transparency masked saved into alphas. The rest of it we'll have to look into a bit but TB2 is really designed as a presentation first sort of app.
just thought of something id like to see..
part of the dota 2 marketing submission is to render a 512x512 image of each item you have made.
In Maya i have been using the camera tools - roll / tumble etc to get nice angles on my items without having to rotate the whole scene to fit the camera. would be great to have some of these "Advanced" camera controls in marmoset. i think its mainly a roll that is missing.
also would love to be able to view a resolution gate. so i can line up my item nicly inside a set region.
Hi there EQ, thank you for taking the time to post here.
Here are a few more thoughts :
- First of all, I think that even in its current state Toolbag2 is already extremely Dota2-friendly. The only setup it requires from the artist is to export a model as OBJ, convert the individual channels of the Dota2 formatted TGAs into individual maps, and then it's all good to go. So in a way, it's already a great solution. Valve provides all the static models in various 3D formats, and if needed, one can also decompile the files from the game itself in order to have access to animations in SMD format which can then be imported to 3D packages using the appropriate SMD importer.
- Now converting the maps can indeed take a while if done manually, since for a set made of 5 slots it means converting the textures of 5 models + the base head and body of the original character. Since each material calls for 8 grayscale masks (half of which being actually readable by Toolbag) it still means (5+2)*4 = 28 textures to save from Photoshop. Now of course this can be easily automated with simple actions and one of the many PSD groups to TGA exporter scripts but I have the feeling that very few artists actually do that ( which is a bit of a shame really as it is rather easy to set up, and turns the lengthy process into just a few clicks.)
- From there I think that there is one very simple way to make the setup time easier for everybody. This solution would be to have Toolbag allow the user to pick the desired R/G/B/A channel to be used when pointing to a given Dota-formatted TGA texture. For instance, instead of having to manually extract the alpha channel of _MASK2 to save it as its own grayscale Gloss map, it would be awesome if Toolboag could just let the user point to the full TGA texture, and then select the alpha channel as the only input to be considerd for Gloss.
- Now regarding the hero shaders and materials : it's a bit of a tricky aspect here, in the sense that Valve uses widely different material multipliers from one character to another in order to push their surface qualities. For instance, here are the values extracted from the material files of two characters I am familiar with :
As you can see there are huge differences being adjusted there. Meaning that even if Toolbag2 had a way of importing native Dota textures maps, or even, if it had a very Dota-specific shader reproducing all the rimlight, fresnel and detail nodes present in the actual game, the end user would still have to input (or more likely, guess) the desired multipliers to make sure that it fits a given character. Now that's not a huge problem at all, since there is always the in-game importer and compiler to check the look of the final submissions. It's just that if Toolbag had a perfect Dota shader (just like the 3DSMax one by Ace-Angel and others), there would still be artists who might get results wildly different from the final ingame assets because of the multipliers in need of being adjusted.
Personally I don't think that it is a huge problem ; but I could see users complaining about it, claiming that it is not "rendering properly" or not "matching the game at all". Maybe it's just a matter of having some kind of disclaimer text somewhere...
Of course it could be possible to enable Toolbag to read straight from these text files and load values from there, but again, the closer it will get to a near-perfect solution, the more artists are likely to complain if something doesn't work perfectly well
- As for a Steam/Workshop presence : personally I rather buy the app directly from you guys, but many people in the Dota2 scene might just not know about Toolbag at all in the first place. More presence is always good ! Also it would be great to have you guys be part of the list of entities that Workshop contributors can assign a part of the "Valve split" to. Handplane, Polycount, XNormal and the Blender Foundation are all there, and it would make a lot of sense for Marmoset to be there as well.
At the very least, you would be widening your net by also having TB2 on Steam.
Selling TB2 on Steam would open the visibility of the software to all UGC content creators and developers who don't otherwise visit community sites like Polycount. You can target the Dota 2 artists to start, but there are a number of games that support content creation who are on Steam. And while I'd like to think they know about Polycount, there is no guarantee they're reading these threads.
I was writing a post but Pior nailed it much better than i could have. Everything he said is pretty much the best way to integrate any kind of "support" for dota in TB2. It's pretty much just the mask separation issue, and the different multiplier values per hero.
With tb2 on steam, i think more exposure is always better, but even if like people said, they could be added as a contributor, i would be more than willing to add you guys on that. I actually didn't know Xnormal was on there, ill have to add them on my next items.
I never used it and have a basic idea of what it can achieve, though I get by well enough without it Tbh. So kinda a nice to have thing but still doesn't cut it as a must have, Imo.
Hey guys, can someone hook me up with some DOTA content here for testing purposes? Just a model(obj or fbx) and the basic textures and vtm files and that stuff.
Hey guys, can someone hook me up with some DOTA content here for testing purposes? Just a model(obj or fbx) and the basic textures and vtm files and that stuff.
@GhostDetector There are no VMT files in requirements page. VMT can only be found in game client itself. Sadly I never dig up into the matter, however I hope soon some other polycounters will provide some kind of package for EarthQuake
Using memes is a very unique way of expressing.
Basically it's a simple easy shameless true expression which is quite challenging to be put into words. Some people believe it is impossible to even put them into words since an image is only one glimpse yet a text requires reading and comprehending. (Considering that the writer wrote it correctly and was using correct terms and grammar, which is something rare to be found on internet nowadays)
I'm not sure if what I just wrote means something though ...
Hey Earthquake, don't suppose this update would be ready tonight or tomorrow, would it? I'm making a set and plan on uploading it soon :P
Seriously nice work, and can't wait for the update. Will it be paid or free?
Sorry, not tonight. I can't give a specific ETA but it should be soon-ish. Dota 2 shader support will be included as a free update to TB2, no additional purchase required.
Replies
If the shader matched the actual DOTA 2 shader that would be great and a real time save. If it could somehow pull the material values (specular strength, gloss values etc.) right from each hero's .VMT files (which are very human readable and easy to understand) in the DOTA2 game folders that would be AMAZING and make Marmoset a complete one-stop solution!
Especially if you could have setting presets for each hero (they all have different rim light colours and falloffs, texture ramps, values, etc - defined in the vtf, all items for the hero use the same values as the hero themselves).
The tweak/save/import/check/repeat loop is a real pain - if this could eliminate that tedium, I'd buy Toolbag in an instant
Animations: Currently TB2 does not support animations in any form (its a feature we plan to add later) so animated mesh import is unlikely. This is something we could look into but likely way down the line. What sort of file format would you need supported? Would this mean loading a proprietary source engine format? If so thats probably even more unlikely.
Importing posed characters: What sort of access do you guys have to the default models? I see you're using max/maya shaders, so theoretically you should just be able to export a posed FBX or OBJ directly from your 3d app of choice.
Loading VTM files/per character material settings: We'll have to look into the feasibility here, even if we can't do this, preset material files can be created in TB2 (this is something you guys could even do as well).
Rendering/presentation specific stuff: Some of this we already have going, like transparency masked saved into alphas. The rest of it we'll have to look into a bit but TB2 is really designed as a presentation first sort of app.
Thanks for all of the input so far!
this was done with just OBJ's and TGA's
not 100% accurate but pretty nice looking either way
part of the dota 2 marketing submission is to render a 512x512 image of each item you have made.
In Maya i have been using the camera tools - roll / tumble etc to get nice angles on my items without having to rotate the whole scene to fit the camera. would be great to have some of these "Advanced" camera controls in marmoset. i think its mainly a roll that is missing.
also would love to be able to view a resolution gate. so i can line up my item nicly inside a set region.
Here are a few more thoughts :
- First of all, I think that even in its current state Toolbag2 is already extremely Dota2-friendly. The only setup it requires from the artist is to export a model as OBJ, convert the individual channels of the Dota2 formatted TGAs into individual maps, and then it's all good to go. So in a way, it's already a great solution. Valve provides all the static models in various 3D formats, and if needed, one can also decompile the files from the game itself in order to have access to animations in SMD format which can then be imported to 3D packages using the appropriate SMD importer.
- Now converting the maps can indeed take a while if done manually, since for a set made of 5 slots it means converting the textures of 5 models + the base head and body of the original character. Since each material calls for 8 grayscale masks (half of which being actually readable by Toolbag) it still means (5+2)*4 = 28 textures to save from Photoshop. Now of course this can be easily automated with simple actions and one of the many PSD groups to TGA exporter scripts but I have the feeling that very few artists actually do that ( which is a bit of a shame really as it is rather easy to set up, and turns the lengthy process into just a few clicks.)
- From there I think that there is one very simple way to make the setup time easier for everybody. This solution would be to have Toolbag allow the user to pick the desired R/G/B/A channel to be used when pointing to a given Dota-formatted TGA texture. For instance, instead of having to manually extract the alpha channel of _MASK2 to save it as its own grayscale Gloss map, it would be awesome if Toolboag could just let the user point to the full TGA texture, and then select the alpha channel as the only input to be considerd for Gloss.
For reference, this is the breakdown provided by Valve regarding these channel masks :
http://media.steampowered.com/apps/dota2/workshop/Dota2ShaderMaskGuide.pdf
And here is my own compact version :
- Now regarding the hero shaders and materials : it's a bit of a tricky aspect here, in the sense that Valve uses widely different material multipliers from one character to another in order to push their surface qualities. For instance, here are the values extracted from the material files of two characters I am familiar with :
As you can see there are huge differences being adjusted there. Meaning that even if Toolbag2 had a way of importing native Dota textures maps, or even, if it had a very Dota-specific shader reproducing all the rimlight, fresnel and detail nodes present in the actual game, the end user would still have to input (or more likely, guess) the desired multipliers to make sure that it fits a given character. Now that's not a huge problem at all, since there is always the in-game importer and compiler to check the look of the final submissions. It's just that if Toolbag had a perfect Dota shader (just like the 3DSMax one by Ace-Angel and others), there would still be artists who might get results wildly different from the final ingame assets because of the multipliers in need of being adjusted.
Personally I don't think that it is a huge problem ; but I could see users complaining about it, claiming that it is not "rendering properly" or not "matching the game at all". Maybe it's just a matter of having some kind of disclaimer text somewhere...
Of course it could be possible to enable Toolbag to read straight from these text files and load values from there, but again, the closer it will get to a near-perfect solution, the more artists are likely to complain if something doesn't work perfectly well
- As for a Steam/Workshop presence : personally I rather buy the app directly from you guys, but many people in the Dota2 scene might just not know about Toolbag at all in the first place. More presence is always good ! Also it would be great to have you guys be part of the list of entities that Workshop contributors can assign a part of the "Valve split" to. Handplane, Polycount, XNormal and the Blender Foundation are all there, and it would make a lot of sense for Marmoset to be there as well.
Hope this helps !!
At the very least, you would be widening your net by also having TB2 on Steam.
Selling TB2 on Steam would open the visibility of the software to all UGC content creators and developers who don't otherwise visit community sites like Polycount. You can target the Dota 2 artists to start, but there are a number of games that support content creation who are on Steam. And while I'd like to think they know about Polycount, there is no guarantee they're reading these threads.
With tb2 on steam, i think more exposure is always better, but even if like people said, they could be added as a contributor, i would be more than willing to add you guys on that. I actually didn't know Xnormal was on there, ill have to add them on my next items.
Here are all the files that valve gives you. They each come in a zip file. Each hero has its own shader values.
http://www.dota2.com/workshop/requirements/
Coming soon.
Well done good sir
Is this love?
No words for that, it's just... beautiful.
You are the best.
^__^
Beautiful. You guys are really rising to the occasion on this. I cannot wait until this update hits.
I cried just a little
i laught more than i should on this one lol
...ok I feel bad. I'll leave now.
Using memes is a very unique way of expressing.
Basically it's a simple easy shameless true expression which is quite challenging to be put into words. Some people believe it is impossible to even put them into words since an image is only one glimpse yet a text requires reading and comprehending. (Considering that the writer wrote it correctly and was using correct terms and grammar, which is something rare to be found on internet nowadays)
I'm not sure if what I just wrote means something though ...
Amazing. Can't wait for this!
but now you have my attention.
Seriously nice work, and can't wait for the update. Will it be paid or free?
Sorry, not tonight. I can't give a specific ETA but it should be soon-ish. Dota 2 shader support will be included as a free update to TB2, no additional purchase required.