Dragon character model WIP [need feedback!]
polycounter lvl 6
I saw "The Hobbit: The desolation of Smaug" this Christmas and had to make a dragon!
Its my first organic model, so its new territory for me! I have tried hard to keep the topography sound, and I'd appreciate any guidance to get it nice and clean!
He was made in 3DS Max from a plain box, and I used a super simple hand drawn reference inspired by the skyrim dragons. I decided not to reinvent the wheel here so I played it relatively safe and went with a fairly generic design.
I dont know if Max is an ideal workflow for complex organic models like this though, as I've seen people make godly models in z-brush. But I have no idea how well they fare when it comes to rigging, rendering and animation. I suppose you can retopo a z-brush model, but I've heard it is kinda hairy.
Anyway, I created him with animation in mind, primarily for use in VFX shots, so I really need to get the topo around joints and such capable of bending without causing problems and artifacts.
And I also wish to know what is most practical thing to do when it comes to the head, and using morph targets; should i leave it attached to the body or detach it as a separate object to put on the rig? I don't know what the common practice is. Im asking well in advance so I'll be a few steps ahead and hopefully not cock things up!
Im happy to show you some more images if you want to look further into the model.
Cheers !
Turbosmoothed
Turbosmoothed
Its my first organic model, so its new territory for me! I have tried hard to keep the topography sound, and I'd appreciate any guidance to get it nice and clean!
He was made in 3DS Max from a plain box, and I used a super simple hand drawn reference inspired by the skyrim dragons. I decided not to reinvent the wheel here so I played it relatively safe and went with a fairly generic design.
I dont know if Max is an ideal workflow for complex organic models like this though, as I've seen people make godly models in z-brush. But I have no idea how well they fare when it comes to rigging, rendering and animation. I suppose you can retopo a z-brush model, but I've heard it is kinda hairy.
Anyway, I created him with animation in mind, primarily for use in VFX shots, so I really need to get the topo around joints and such capable of bending without causing problems and artifacts.
And I also wish to know what is most practical thing to do when it comes to the head, and using morph targets; should i leave it attached to the body or detach it as a separate object to put on the rig? I don't know what the common practice is. Im asking well in advance so I'll be a few steps ahead and hopefully not cock things up!
Im happy to show you some more images if you want to look further into the model.
Cheers !
Turbosmoothed
Turbosmoothed
Replies
The center line has a pinch where it was mirrored. You'll need to soften that.
I would suggest looking at animal anatomy from lizards, bats and dinosaurs. Once you have thoroughly researched how the anatomy might go together, then you'll want to build a new model that follows the flow of muscles...
Good luck.
As for muscles, I'll be adding those in Mudbox and use displacement maps, as im not going to use this for a game, but for a VFX shot or two. Do you know of any specific resources on anatomy or should I just google image search?
@Torch: Can you please draw where you'd add more lines on one of the images? It would be really helpful
ZBrush has never responded well to triangles, but it's usually almost impossible to avoid them. And no N-Gons (polygons with more than 4 sides).
"Kite" and diamond shapes can be worked with.
These are the points to a good basemesh.
If the model doesn't have this, then when you import it into ZBrush, the program will subdivide incorrectly from the start and you'll be fighting the sculpt the entire way, which costs time and generally ends with a poor model.
There is Dynamesh in ZBrush, which takes the model and redraws it as many tiny squares. It doesnt address flow, but it does give you a base to sculpt with.
Afterward, you'll have to retopologize the model anyway. Which means redrawing a lowpoly mesh over the high poly one.
You can also forgo the idea of trying to work with an initial basemesh in your modeling program and start with ZSpheres in ZBrush.
I encourage you to look at wire frames of many models and run through some tutorials for ZBrush widely found around the net.
Hi, just wanted to post this image:
Orange lines for edge loops, more evenly quadded geo will give you nicer sculpting results than having to 'fight' errors with bad geo. What you have isn't terrible but could be cleaned up to make sculpting a little easier.
I'm not sure that the reptile needs external ear structure. If you want to put ear, please consider to make different size than horns. To me, the ear looks like the horn because of its size.
@Torch, thanks for showing me how the polys should be evened out, I get it now! I also looked at your blog and some of your own models for reference!
@Fordea, thanks, I'll rework the ear!
Thanks again.
The graphite tools worked much better. The problem is that Max can't handle the highest tris counts that Zbrush can, so you ave to Decimate in Zbrush to bring it down to a reasonable level.
However, I finally gave into to purchasing Topogun. It is worth every penny. It handles high counts, is easy to learn and has great results. In that program, the mirror function isn't the best, So often I find myself doing a center seam and then just retopologizing one side. After which, I export it to Max and do the mirror there.
It's really a matter of preference. Personally I feel it's important to learn to use the tools within the programs before buying third party stuff. You'll not only have a better understanding of what you are after, but it also will reduce the learning curve.
ZBrush retopo is good when you need a quick surface to sculpt on. Mike Jensen uses that during his sculpting i believe. You aren't doing the whole model, just a pierce of it.
Having a go with the graphite tools! They are pretty neat !
As for the anatomy + flow of muscles, it will take me some time to grasp. This is my first serious attempt at an organic model, so I have to realize its impossible to make a godly model from the get go.
Approximately how low-poly do you guys normally start off models with anyway? I have looked at the Mudbox t-rex as a ref, and its around ~7200 poly. Im trying to mimic the wireframe, and the thigh has only a row of 4 polys on the sides and just one in the front and back.
Again, thanks for your help, katana, Torch, foredea
So far the torso starts with a row of 7 polys, adds 1 due to a loop around over the thigh and ends in 4 by the base of the tail. The leg is made of 10 polys, causing the toes to be hexagonal because i dont know how to make them square without making tris :I
Started on the head, trying to figure out loops and such.
Main muscle groups are highlighted and etc, works very well in animation
A progress shot
Havent started on the wings yet, but Im gonna go with a solid mesh, so no advanced cloth simulation or anything like that!
Wings. Gonna reduce the polys on the upper arm.
An update on the head.
Comments, crits and advice is welcomed !
Graphite tools are still pretty powerful from what I hear. Cool updates
Thanks for the tip Torch, those tools look realllly awesome! But Im going to stick withthe graphite tools for now, there are lots of stuff there I havent explored yet
I didn't get to work on the model that much this weekend
The wings does not look good, but Im not sure how I make them look more round and simultaneously keep the polycount down, tip much appreciated!
I'm planning on adding some simple morph targets on the head, so I'm keeping the head and body as separate meshes. Ive reduced the number of polys on the head where it meets the body, to match the same vertex count on the seam when I start subdividing. Is this the right way of doing it?
And do you unwrap the model before or after rigging?
Cheers
But I have a huge question regarding texturing and rigging.
First off, the head is decapitated on a base level to make morph targets, BUT how does that go together with the UVW mapping the head and body together? Especially with Mudbox in mind?
So far I have thought of having a stack in Max that looks like this:
4: Edit Poly or MeshSmooth
3: Unwrap UVW
2: Morpher
1: Editable Poly
When I export the file (with the head and body joined with a poly modifier and UVW on top) as an OBJ to Mudbox, texture it there and return to max, will the UVW coordinates be preserved?
Or do you export and texture the head and the body as separately?
Hey guys, I'm back again and soon about to finish the model, but I'm having severe trouble with the displacement map where it just inflates the entire model instead of rendering the actual details.
I read an earlier thread here on the forum where OP had the same problem, but I could not find the solution even though I have done the same things OP did, which frustrates me even more.
In Mudbox2013 I have set the lvl 2 mesh as the target model and the highest (level 6) as source, and I'm using the subdivision method.
Mudbox:
3DS MAX:
In Max I have chosen mray as renderer, subdivided the mesh twice, applied the Arch and Design shader to the model and put the map into the displacement slot with a value of 0,5.
I know that with these settings I should get good results, so I cant comprehend why it fails. Another thing is that it takes ages to render a single frame at 640x360 when it should go pretty quick. But this is probably because of the inflation effect.
Any sort of help much much appreciated! I just want to get this thing rendered and finally done with! :thumbup: