Good question Hermit. Making GTA or Skyrims are hard regardless of the tool set you use. Though using the leverage of actions of Ddo and Ndo with templates could get you long ways if used correctly. I know people are afraid of how slow Ddo can be, but if you have a good PC it is pretty easy working on multiple projects at once with photoshop.
I still new to Ddo but really I am finding all sorts of great things for it. Functionality is super simple to use and really it is an easy sell for people since it is constructed in such a way that even the non technical artists can see it and feel the power of it. Since Ddo is so integrated with photoshop most people will get use to it quickly.
Making large MMo games are hard regardless but with a bit of scripting and action work you can automate a lot of your workflow with Ddo. I just wish It had a baker, I still like using x-normal though and it fits the workflow I use. Plus I can have a fancy view port render where I can show pretty super high quality renders before seeing it in game.
Again MMo or open worlds are hard I think both tools may need some general forward thinking to move to that spot but that is stuff studios end up doing regardless so if you happen to be a in studio with some tech artists around who can script for you Ddo seems like a good answer for quick iteration,
Good question Hermit. Making GTA or Skyrims are hard regardless of the tool set you use. Though using the leverage of actions of Ddo and Ndo with templates could get you long ways if used correctly. I know people are afraid of how slow Ddo can be, but if you have a good PC it is pretty easy working on multiple projects at once with photoshop.
I still new to Ddo but really I am finding all sorts of great things for it. Functionality is super simple to use and really it is an easy sell for people since it is constructed in such a way that even the non technical artists can see it and feel the power of it. Since Ddo is so integrated with photoshop most people will get use to it quickly.
Making large MMo games are hard regardless but with a bit of scripting and action work you can automate a lot of your workflow with Ddo. I just wish It had a baker, I still like using x-normal though and it fits the workflow I use. Plus I can have a fancy view port render where I can show pretty super high quality renders before seeing it in game.
Again MMo or open worlds are hard I think both tools may need some general forward thinking to move to that spot but that is stuff studios end up doing regardless so if you happen to be a in studio with some tech artists around who can script for you Ddo seems like a good answer for quick iteration,
Rogelio, not sure if this is April fools joke, but some guys in Germany are quoting and translating your thoughts on a big forum in Europe. I've heard you are helping spearhead a bunch of people asking Allegorithmic for refunds as they jump to the competitor, as the word of a Naughty Dog artist carries a lot of weight. Sorry to see you so unhappy with the worlds greatest texturing/material tools ever created.
Rogelio, not sure if this is April fools joke, but some guys in Germany are quoting and translating your thoughts on a big forum in Europe. I've heard you are helping spearhead a bunch of people asking Allegorithmic for refunds as they jump to the competitor, as the word of a Naughty Dog artist carries a lot of weight. Sorry to see you so unhappy with the worlds greatest texturing/material tools ever created.
Ah the net fail. I guess it is not April 1st in Germany.
Ok to be fair I do think Ddo has done some great stuff with the new release and I think they forged a very kick ass tool, with that said
Yes this is an April fools joke. For everyone I do not have any ill will towards any tool. If people follow what I say at the end I tend to say whatever gets the job done.
Personally I follow Allegorithmic tools and the workflow, but I deeply understand why the new Ddo has great potential. Before the new Ddo came and the promise in the videos I did not really like Ddo, now the new Ddo is out and being taken towards a good path. I would have to say I am intrigued still Substance Designer is amazing and personally leaps and bounds most competitors when it comes to game workflow needs.
I think it is awesome to have choices and also competition. Ddo and substance designer can live along each other
Oh and as far as me asking for refunds... This is false. I am a end user like everyone else.
Ah the net fail. I guess it is not April 1st in Germany.
Ok to be fair I do think Ddo has done some great stuff with the new release and I think they forged a very kick ass tool, with that said
Yes this is an April fools joke. For everyone I do not have any ill will towards any tool. If people follow what I say at the end I tend to say whatever gets the job done.
Personally I follow Allegorithmic tools and the workflow, but I deeply understand why the new Ddo has great potential. Before the new Ddo came and the promise in the videos I did not really like Ddo, now the new Ddo is out and being taken towards a good path. I would have to say I am intrigued still Substance Designer is amazing and personally leaps and bounds most competitors when it comes to game workflow needs.
I think it is awesome to have choices and also competition. Ddo and substance designer can live along each other
Oh and as far as me asking for refunds... This is false. I am a end user like everyone else.
Lol he had me too, the argument sounded feasible, it's what people tend to say if they never really tried designer or were never convinced by it. Damn you!
Oh good lord, that totally sounded legit, having never used Substance Designer, and generally disliking node-based editors to begin with, I was actually quite happy to read this!
Ugh, looks like I really need to learn Substance properly, then, as well as dDo.
Well some stuff is actually legit info Either way I think it is in everyone's best interest to learn both or at least know of them. Being an artist in this industry it is good to know both and other programs as well. Knald is in my list to test out.
I would hate for people to blindly accept advice. Best to see it on your own.
Thank god I remained skeptical. Stupid April Fools....
So is Substance slow to achieve results or that was a joke too? What about using megascans to prototype/testing and then make everything in Substance?
Geez. I've been had, lol. I haven't used the new version of Ddo, so I have no idea how it has improved beyond what they are claiming. I am intrigued by substance. I just need to take the time to actually learn how to use it. Out of curiosity, do you guys (Naughty Dog/Dice) have integration of substance into your engine (i.e., can you change the substances in engine)?
MDiamond:I have yet to work with the new Ddo. Mega scans look promising for what I said before prototyping quick ideas or even finished props quickly seems to be a plus on Ddo's side. Though this workflow is the same in substance designer when you have a library in your hands. I prefer substance due to the fact that when I make anything everything becomes a tool to use. If I make a kick ass brick wall that uses the height, Normal, Ao as the base for example I am able to put almost anything brick like and get instant results with the final desired look. Both Ddo and substance seem to be leaning heavily to automation and the promise in Ddo's changes seem intriguing.
dtschultz: Substance has direct connection to engines like UE3 or even Maya this is a huge plus! As far as the video I have seen Ddo will come with something alike. Substance to me still feels like a larger scheme tool set. Substance does have its own backward functionality, but that is being dealt with as time goes on.
Here is a good question...
Are you a more technical Artist or more of an Artist?
Substance tends to lean towards the technical and a lot of people's brain breaks when trying to figure out stuff. It happened to me, but I kept at it and now it has become a tool I use everyday.
Ddo is an amazing tool and will become way more amazing from the videos coming out. This is a pure art tool it can get technical but the ease of use is spot on. I really have to bow down to them for making a really functional clean easy to understand tool.
Both have positives and negatives like I said before
Please please please I urge everyone to try both and see what you like. And other tools also. Do not ever get swayed because of someone in the industry this would be bad. As an Artist I really think it is best for people to test out and figure out your own workflow, I can preach all kinds of things, but I would be doing a great deal of damage towards everyone for not saying to try other tools.
MDiamond:I have yet to work with the new Ddo. Mega scans look promising for what I said before prototyping quick ideas or even finished props quickly seems to be a plus on Ddo's side. Though this workflow is the same in substance designer when you have a library in your hands. I prefer substance due to the fact that when I make anything everything becomes a tool to use. If I make a kick ass brick wall that uses the height, Normal, Ao as the base for example I am able to put almost anything brick like and get instant results with the final desired look. Both Ddo and substance seem to be leaning heavily to automation and the promise in Ddo's changes seem intriguing.
dtschultz: Substance has direct connection to engines like UE3 or even Maya this is a huge plus! As far as the video I have seen Ddo will come with something alike. Substance to me still feels like a larger scheme tool set. Substance does have its own backward functionality, but that is being dealt with as time goes on.
Here is a good question...
Are you a more technical Artist or more of an Artist?
Substance tends to lean towards the technical and a lot of people's brain breaks when trying to figure out stuff. It happened to me, but I kept at it and now it has become a tool I use everyday.
Ddo is an amazing tool and will become way more amazing from the videos coming out. This is a pure art tool it can get technical but the ease of use is spot on. I really have to bow down to them for making a really functional clean easy to understand tool.
Both have positives and negatives like I said before
Please please please I urge everyone to try both and see what you like. And other tools also. Do not ever get swayed because of someone in the industry this would be bad. As an Artist I really think it is best for people to test out and figure out your own workflow, I can preach all kinds of things, but I would be doing a great deal of damage towards everyone for not saying to try other tools.
Thanks for taking the time to type such a long response. I've been going back and forth with some people here at work about whether to integrate Substance into our pipeline here (our Oslo studio already uses it -although in a different capacity than how we would use it). I would like to use it to create substances for various kinds of bricks, concrete, etc., and I know this is its strength. I know in Ddo 1 this would not have been possible (no tiling).
I admit I started using Ddo just because it was a lot easier to get up and running with, but I found the first version to be a little limiting in terms of trying to make things not look like they came out of Ddo (I admit, this could be to user error).
I am on the more technical side, but at the same time, I'm not likely to become a technical artist, if you know what I mean, lol. I just need to force myself to sit down and try and figure out how I can use it to improve my workflow.
Hermit: I feel both Ddo and Substance are strong on that aspect just in a different form. Yes if substance user create more substances a library will be useable. Though a user library might not be all that good to use in your personal projects due to obvious thing like style and quality variations. With Ddo megascans it kind of solves this issue by giving you a initial speed boost but than you will have a look that is more Ddo than yours. Both are capable of growing and having a strong community behind them. So yes and no I think both are capable of expanding. dtschultz: working in studio is a whole other perspective than working on personal stuff. Or even smaller studios. It really just depends on your needs which is better and the best way is testing it out. If you have any questions feel free to IM or also put it up on the master substance thread.
Ddo can do tileable textures also since it has all the functionality with Photoshop you can make your brick or whatever textures in Ddo so both have that functionality and especially if you have a sculpt zbrush workflow than yes both do well on that end.
[URL="http://www.polycount.com/forum/member.php?u=105505" dtschultz: working in studio is a whole other perspective than working on personal stuff. Or even smaller studios. It really just depends on your needs which is better and the best way is testing it out. If you have any questions feel free to IM or also put it up on the master substance thread.
Ddo can do tileable textures also since it has all the functionality with Photoshop you can make your brick or whatever textures in Ddo so both have that functionality and especially if you have a sculpt zbrush workflow than yes both do well on that end.
Thanks a lot, man! I'll check out the thread, and if I get stuck I will ask.
At the end it does depend on your workflow though. But again...
my old workflow looked like this
-maya (if I start my model in maya if not direct to ZB)
-zbrush
-xnormal
-photoshop
-crazybump
-dDo/nDo
New workflow is
-maya (if I start my model in maya if not direct to ZB)
-zbrush
-Photoshop (save and process files only)
-Substance (80% texture work here)
I prefer a simpler workflow and less file juggling.
thanks for the Workflow. i'm still student, i dont like xnormal because I spend a lot time for the baking.
I just downloaded dDo 5.3. Am i right in thinking that this version of dDo CANNOT be used to create / preview PBR textures / materials?
cheers.
Right, the Quixel Suite does PBR stuff, not dDo 5.3. However, it's not too hard to get your work from dDo 5.3 to pbr, just edit the spec and gloss maps and mask out the metal and when finished masking it out, copy and paste it into it's own map, white being metal, black being nonmetal. There's your metalness, roughness, and specular. If you're using UE4 you can use some lerp magic with some constants in the material and good a very nice result.
edit: sorry if this post seems unorganized or is hard to read, been up for like 38 hours now :X
New DDO is PBR based (rendering side of it + megascans) but uses the diffuse/specular workflow instead of albedo/metalness. They're working on adding metalness support for the next release I think.
Legacy dDo does not have stuff like energy conservation and megascans. If you set up your own presets you apparently can use it for PBR to an extent.
Question for everyone why is it that just more of the art I see on DDO website looks better then the art I see on allgorithmics?
Mostly due to how the tool is being used. Since substance works great in a studio environment you might not be seeing that many people posting because of those games yet to be released.
as for indvidule assets. I agree and it is something the Allgorithmic guys have been trying hard to address by doing contests and also bringing in more experienced artists to the for front.
This video is a nice example of stuff, but again you are right those top samples are not to the level of Ddo, also Ddo has had a longer standing in the community substance designer has really become big the last 1-2 years or so.
Loved reading through this thread. I bought substance D&P and given those a go these last two weeks[FONT="] [/FONT]after reading all the praises. I went through a lot of the tutorials available on YouTube, and know most of the basics but have a hard time actually making good textures in Substance.
That's actually one thing substance really needs is a demonstration of how to make fantastic game art using it. Only one who has done this is the Titan Contest winner, everyone else has shown average texture work unfortunately.
I'm going to give Quixel suite a go too to come up with a final conclusion on my own, however already going through their tutorials they have shown much more eye candy demonstrations. Some fantastic things created before your eyes I would say is a very good selling point.
It seems like Substance Designer is more powerful and being standalone product more stable and efficient, but at the same time quite hard to make good substances and textures without fully mastering the software. I feel it needs much more readymade substances and filters to the level of DDO so don't need to start from scratch most of the time, but instead make tweaks.
Whilst Quixel Suite is simpler with less configurable presets and options however it is able to create great effects and textures in a faster manner. I feel Quixel is most likely let down by Photoshop, creating layers and adjustments every time you make changes, and the dead end.
Putting studio projects aside and recycling substances I wonder what package people think is more suited for people who want to create great textures for portfolio purposes?
I think your summary is pretty accurate, SD excels in a studio environment where you have a technical artist feeding it good base content for artists to repurpose.
Quixel Suite/dDo on the other hand, to me at least, is more usable out of the box and I think makes more sense for an individual working on a portfolio.
This got me started so quick with Subsatnce Designer texturing. I actually like using add/sub instead of the copy mode for the blend to not alter the base values as much but ya.
I'll add, once you get used to Substance Designer, it's really fun and quick to use. I find myself waiting on DDO a lot to do stuff instead of learning.
Also, I agree that Allegorithmic should have some REALLY REALLY high-end stuff created with Substance on their website because it's 100% possible. I think that is where Quixel currently excels, the marketing and easy to pick up non-tech tutorials.
I'm really tired so my sentences suck, but hopefully they're understandable.
But whatever magic he did it happens off-screen or at render time, I don't render game art stuff. The textures he built was base colours, grunge, scratches filter and oil leaks in Painter, and right at the end it still looked rather average in Designer but awesome in the final render images. As a learning material it's great stuff don't get me wrong.
hi,
i can assure you that no magic was involved at all ..
just gpu rendering with radiosity turned on with a couple of bounces and post processing in photoshop
i do not expect substance designer viewport to be as good as marmosset ( even if i wishes it was )
as it is an authoring tool for me .. and not the place whee i would display my final result
that what render engine or marmosset are for :-)
Substance Designer is a little too technical right now, you need to know how to make the effects you want using lots of different masks and nodes, it's no longer directly painting in photoshop. It's almost like going into ZBrush to sculpt but not having any brushes ready, you actually need to go and create all the effects you desire before you can work with them, I know there is some filters but not enough of them right now.
you do not need to create any custom tools to get started , since a lot are already supplied and you can use blend nodes to make a lot of advance effects without having to make your own tool , and as you did watch my video , you probably saw that i took a very simple approach .. as i like the easiest way to achieve my goals :-)
not really fair to compare it to zbrush , where you would have to create your own brush ...
but i assume that we all have different understanding of workflow and tools
may i suggest trying substance painter ?
i have a video about it .. might be worth looking into it ?
looking in the video you did post , i agree that the marmosset viewport is very sweet , but thank you no thank you .. i do not want to wait for an update each time i move a slider .
can't afford that in production :-)
i have nothing against Wixel
at the end of the days , both tools have their place and use ..
to each one their own
i just feel that the substance approach is not evolutionary but revolutionary :-)
Replies
I still new to Ddo but really I am finding all sorts of great things for it. Functionality is super simple to use and really it is an easy sell for people since it is constructed in such a way that even the non technical artists can see it and feel the power of it. Since Ddo is so integrated with photoshop most people will get use to it quickly.
Making large MMo games are hard regardless but with a bit of scripting and action work you can automate a lot of your workflow with Ddo. I just wish It had a baker, I still like using x-normal though and it fits the workflow I use. Plus I can have a fancy view port render where I can show pretty super high quality renders before seeing it in game.
Again MMo or open worlds are hard I think both tools may need some general forward thinking to move to that spot but that is stuff studios end up doing regardless so if you happen to be a in studio with some tech artists around who can script for you Ddo seems like a good answer for quick iteration,
Rogelio, not sure if this is April fools joke, but some guys in Germany are quoting and translating your thoughts on a big forum in Europe. I've heard you are helping spearhead a bunch of people asking Allegorithmic for refunds as they jump to the competitor, as the word of a Naughty Dog artist carries a lot of weight. Sorry to see you so unhappy with the worlds greatest texturing/material tools ever created.
Ah the net fail. I guess it is not April 1st in Germany.
Ok to be fair I do think Ddo has done some great stuff with the new release and I think they forged a very kick ass tool, with that said
Yes this is an April fools joke. For everyone I do not have any ill will towards any tool. If people follow what I say at the end I tend to say whatever gets the job done.
Personally I follow Allegorithmic tools and the workflow, but I deeply understand why the new Ddo has great potential. Before the new Ddo came and the promise in the videos I did not really like Ddo, now the new Ddo is out and being taken towards a good path. I would have to say I am intrigued still Substance Designer is amazing and personally leaps and bounds most competitors when it comes to game workflow needs.
I think it is awesome to have choices and also competition. Ddo and substance designer can live along each other
Oh and as far as me asking for refunds... This is false. I am a end user like everyone else.
And April Fools right back on you - smack!
Ugh, looks like I really need to learn Substance properly, then, as well as dDo.
I would hate for people to blindly accept advice. Best to see it on your own.
So is Substance slow to achieve results or that was a joke too? What about using megascans to prototype/testing and then make everything in Substance?
dtschultz: Substance has direct connection to engines like UE3 or even Maya this is a huge plus! As far as the video I have seen Ddo will come with something alike. Substance to me still feels like a larger scheme tool set. Substance does have its own backward functionality, but that is being dealt with as time goes on.
Here is a good question...
Are you a more technical Artist or more of an Artist?
Substance tends to lean towards the technical and a lot of people's brain breaks when trying to figure out stuff. It happened to me, but I kept at it and now it has become a tool I use everyday.
Ddo is an amazing tool and will become way more amazing from the videos coming out. This is a pure art tool it can get technical but the ease of use is spot on. I really have to bow down to them for making a really functional clean easy to understand tool.
Both have positives and negatives like I said before
Please please please I urge everyone to try both and see what you like. And other tools also. Do not ever get swayed because of someone in the industry this would be bad. As an Artist I really think it is best for people to test out and figure out your own workflow, I can preach all kinds of things, but I would be doing a great deal of damage towards everyone for not saying to try other tools.
Thanks for taking the time to type such a long response. I've been going back and forth with some people here at work about whether to integrate Substance into our pipeline here (our Oslo studio already uses it -although in a different capacity than how we would use it). I would like to use it to create substances for various kinds of bricks, concrete, etc., and I know this is its strength. I know in Ddo 1 this would not have been possible (no tiling).
I admit I started using Ddo just because it was a lot easier to get up and running with, but I found the first version to be a little limiting in terms of trying to make things not look like they came out of Ddo (I admit, this could be to user error).
I am on the more technical side, but at the same time, I'm not likely to become a technical artist, if you know what I mean, lol. I just need to force myself to sit down and try and figure out how I can use it to improve my workflow.
dtschultz: working in studio is a whole other perspective than working on personal stuff. Or even smaller studios. It really just depends on your needs which is better and the best way is testing it out. If you have any questions feel free to IM or also put it up on the master substance thread.
Ddo can do tileable textures also since it has all the functionality with Photoshop you can make your brick or whatever textures in Ddo so both have that functionality and especially if you have a sculpt zbrush workflow than yes both do well on that end.
Thanks a lot, man! I'll check out the thread, and if I get stuck I will ask.
thanks for the Workflow. i'm still student, i dont like xnormal because I spend a lot time for the baking.
Ddo:
- easy to pick up and use, since most of us are forced to learn photoshop anyways
- very quick to get beautiful uniform results
- get very good previews thanks to the power of marmoset toolbag
- If anything its great to have if you ever want to edit in Photoshop because you can get a real-time preview
Cons:- it can bake, and acts as a very powerful baker
- it can be used in game engines, in a way where you can tweak the settings, which no one else can get you that effect
- more robust choice of options
- GPU powered
- works with PBR
- You can use it with substance painter, but there is really no options for a quick back and fourth between the 2 programs
cons:Is setting up a .sbsab in UDK or UE4 really more efficient then just achieving the same effect through the engines powerful material editor?
The new version of dDo is PBR based.
Probably not for just a few portfolio pieces, but in a pipeline every tasked you reduced, you reduced doing it thousands of times.
How much time do you think it would take to hook up materials for 2000 assets? In a studio that's a lot of time and money saved.
I just downloaded dDo 5.3. Am i right in thinking that this version of dDo CANNOT be used to create / preview PBR textures / materials?
cheers.
Right, the Quixel Suite does PBR stuff, not dDo 5.3. However, it's not too hard to get your work from dDo 5.3 to pbr, just edit the spec and gloss maps and mask out the metal and when finished masking it out, copy and paste it into it's own map, white being metal, black being nonmetal. There's your metalness, roughness, and specular. If you're using UE4 you can use some lerp magic with some constants in the material and good a very nice result.
edit: sorry if this post seems unorganized or is hard to read, been up for like 38 hours now :X
Legacy dDo does not have stuff like energy conservation and megascans. If you set up your own presets you apparently can use it for PBR to an extent.
Its a supposition, a rumor or really Quixel will be a standalone app soon or later ?
ty
Mostly due to how the tool is being used. Since substance works great in a studio environment you might not be seeing that many people posting because of those games yet to be released.
as for indvidule assets. I agree and it is something the Allgorithmic guys have been trying hard to address by doing contests and also bringing in more experienced artists to the for front.
This video is a nice example of stuff, but again you are right those top samples are not to the level of Ddo, also Ddo has had a longer standing in the community substance designer has really become big the last 1-2 years or so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9b3ANEsduk
Below is the Uncharted trailer I worked on it as a one of the texture artists that is all I can say.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1Rx-Bbht5E
I think your summary is pretty accurate, SD excels in a studio environment where you have a technical artist feeding it good base content for artists to repurpose.
Quixel Suite/dDo on the other hand, to me at least, is more usable out of the box and I think makes more sense for an individual working on a portfolio.
I'll add, once you get used to Substance Designer, it's really fun and quick to use. I find myself waiting on DDO a lot to do stuff instead of learning.
Also, I agree that Allegorithmic should have some REALLY REALLY high-end stuff created with Substance on their website because it's 100% possible. I think that is where Quixel currently excels, the marketing and easy to pick up non-tech tutorials.
I'm really tired so my sentences suck, but hopefully they're understandable.
[ame="
SD's strength, for me, is creating pbr materials. DDO's strength is applying/assigning preset materials to model zones.
I love both!
glad that my video was of some use to you :-)
@blazed
hi,
i can assure you that no magic was involved at all ..
just gpu rendering with radiosity turned on with a couple of bounces and post processing in photoshop
i do not expect substance designer viewport to be as good as marmosset ( even if i wishes it was )
as it is an authoring tool for me .. and not the place whee i would display my final result
that what render engine or marmosset are for :-)
you do not need to create any custom tools to get started , since a lot are already supplied and you can use blend nodes to make a lot of advance effects without having to make your own tool , and as you did watch my video , you probably saw that i took a very simple approach .. as i like the easiest way to achieve my goals :-)
not really fair to compare it to zbrush , where you would have to create your own brush ...
but i assume that we all have different understanding of workflow and tools
may i suggest trying substance painter ?
i have a video about it .. might be worth looking into it ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eimaEFIfKK8
looking in the video you did post , i agree that the marmosset viewport is very sweet , but thank you no thank you .. i do not want to wait for an update each time i move a slider .
can't afford that in production :-)
i have nothing against Wixel
at the end of the days , both tools have their place and use ..
to each one their own
i just feel that the substance approach is not evolutionary but revolutionary :-)
regards,
Christophe D.