Game Art Education - Need Your Advice
polycounter lvl 8
Hello everyone! I'm new to Polycount and I would really like to read your opinions on my case. I realise that this topic has been brought up in many threads before and I have read through most of them. Still, I feel the need to get some advice on a personal level, as this is a pretty big and important decision for me to make.
Some words about me: I'm 21 years old and have a traditional art background, as well as some intermediate-level experience with 3D modeling. I'm from Greece, which makes me an EU citizen (unless something terrible happens and we get kicked out)... My dream has always been to work in the video game industry and I have explored many aspects of it (including programming), which has led me to realise that environment modeling and/or level design is most likely the thing I enjoy most. I always thought that working at a big company making AAA games would be the dream job for me, though lately, after seeing the progress made in the indie game development scene, watching Indie Game: The Movie etc, the independent route interests me more and more. I certainly have the motivation and will to learn, so I don't need a school to provide that for me.
I'm at the point when I have to decide whether to apply for a Game Art BA program at a UK University, or go the self-taught route. The two main universities that have caught my attention are the University of Hertfordshire (which has a thread here in Polycount) and De Montfort University (latest showreel here).
I have organised my thoughts this way:
University Pros:
- Provides you with a degree, which will help you with visas, if you intend to work outside the EU (for example in the US).
- Tutors and classmates helping you on a more personal level.
- Social experience of studying at a University abroad.
University Cons:
- A big financial and time investment (at least 40k Euros and 3 years).
- Might include some classes that do not directly interest you (which is not necessarily a bad thing).
Self-taught Pros:
- Much cheaper, the only thing you need to pay for are the subscriptions for Digital Tutors, Gnomon Workshop etc and perhaps some online classes too.
- You organise your program yourself, learn exactly what you want to learn, at your own pace (which might be faster or slower than that of a University, depending on you).
Self-taught Cons:
- The lack of a degree would make it very hard to get a visa to work outside the EU, if such an opportunity presented itself.
- Lack of personal guidance, help from tutors etc (which is what the Internet is for, I guess).
I have some questions for you, Polycount people:
1) Can online forums completely replace a classroom environment, in terms of personalised help and critique? Is online feedback enough for someone to develop as an artist, or is it lacking, compared to the input of personal tutors/mentors at a university/school?
2) In your experience, do you think it is faster or slower to learn 3D/Game Art on your own, as opposed to inside a university environment?
3) If I do choose the University route, which of my 2 current choices do you think would be better? If you have another choice to suggest to me, it would be welcome as well.
Sorry for the length of the text and I really thank you if you took the time to read through this. I hope I can get some good advice here that will set me on the right path
Some words about me: I'm 21 years old and have a traditional art background, as well as some intermediate-level experience with 3D modeling. I'm from Greece, which makes me an EU citizen (unless something terrible happens and we get kicked out)... My dream has always been to work in the video game industry and I have explored many aspects of it (including programming), which has led me to realise that environment modeling and/or level design is most likely the thing I enjoy most. I always thought that working at a big company making AAA games would be the dream job for me, though lately, after seeing the progress made in the indie game development scene, watching Indie Game: The Movie etc, the independent route interests me more and more. I certainly have the motivation and will to learn, so I don't need a school to provide that for me.
I'm at the point when I have to decide whether to apply for a Game Art BA program at a UK University, or go the self-taught route. The two main universities that have caught my attention are the University of Hertfordshire (which has a thread here in Polycount) and De Montfort University (latest showreel here).
I have organised my thoughts this way:
University Pros:
- Provides you with a degree, which will help you with visas, if you intend to work outside the EU (for example in the US).
- Tutors and classmates helping you on a more personal level.
- Social experience of studying at a University abroad.
University Cons:
- A big financial and time investment (at least 40k Euros and 3 years).
- Might include some classes that do not directly interest you (which is not necessarily a bad thing).
Self-taught Pros:
- Much cheaper, the only thing you need to pay for are the subscriptions for Digital Tutors, Gnomon Workshop etc and perhaps some online classes too.
- You organise your program yourself, learn exactly what you want to learn, at your own pace (which might be faster or slower than that of a University, depending on you).
Self-taught Cons:
- The lack of a degree would make it very hard to get a visa to work outside the EU, if such an opportunity presented itself.
- Lack of personal guidance, help from tutors etc (which is what the Internet is for, I guess).
I have some questions for you, Polycount people:
1) Can online forums completely replace a classroom environment, in terms of personalised help and critique? Is online feedback enough for someone to develop as an artist, or is it lacking, compared to the input of personal tutors/mentors at a university/school?
2) In your experience, do you think it is faster or slower to learn 3D/Game Art on your own, as opposed to inside a university environment?
3) If I do choose the University route, which of my 2 current choices do you think would be better? If you have another choice to suggest to me, it would be welcome as well.
Sorry for the length of the text and I really thank you if you took the time to read through this. I hope I can get some good advice here that will set me on the right path
Replies
I mean honestly it's hard to give you personalized feedback. You say you have the motivation to learn on your own and you don't seem to have any financial burdens(?) to attend a uni. Usually that's the deciding factor. Else the only other 2 aspects to acknowledge, that I can think of, is social skills and networking.
Another tid bit may be that people (in my observations) seem to like the U.S's industry? So uni may be your preferred route for visa.
2) It's faster to learn on your own. The university won't teach you everything. They expect you to learn it by yourself. I see it as, they are there to teach the basics and you will need to go and explore the rest of the Games Art world.
3) I have chosen the university route even though it's mad expensive but I get a degree and also in university of Hertfordshire there are opportunities to talk to industry people when they come to give talks. I'm not sure about DMU. I applied to them as well but they rejected me huhuhu. I would obviously vote for Herts since I'm in it XD and I've met so many amazing Games Artists here. It almost makes me sad knowing I have to compete with those people. lol. I guess going to university gets you a lot of connections. You'll need it when you apply for jobs.
I would say, do both. But self-taught is a must if you go uni. I can tell you that you will need to learn almost everything by yourself. So if you choose to go university, you can't expect to relax and allow the magic of the uni to teach you games art. You need to teach your self games art. Should never, ever slack. Competition is tight! (:
Note: At Uni of Herts, first year consists of VFX, 2D, 3D and Games Art together. You would be annoyed if your interest is purely Games Art (cos I was mad annoyed XD) but you get a taste of other pathways in case you want to switch for the second year.
I do have the ability (financially) to attend a university, but it's still quite an investment, compared to my total budget, so I need to be absolutely sure before choosing whether to do it.
This one is really bugging me... I understand that the world of 3D/Games Art is too vast and ever evolving to be wholly covered inside a classroom, but my question would be: does your university allow you enough free time, to do extra research/tutorials on your own? I would expect it does, with the two completing each other.
I'm honestly getting really tired of it, and it's only going to get harder for me as I enter the harder classes.
Like I said though, it could be different for a game art program. If you have the drive, then I would say by all means try to self-teach yourself. I learn basically nothing in school, in fact I don't even know why I go to lectures anymore. I have to fill in gaps myself because classes won't cover important topics.
For example, my first assignment for my CS class was to "defuse a binary bomb" which only required basic knowledge of C. My second assignment was to simulate L1/L2/L3 caches (which we were never taught about and the book we have is shit and doesn't contain enough information to complete the assignment). So I had to go and self-teach myself using the internet anyway.
Good luck with your decision.
I am mostly self taught but I have had a bunch of mini introductory classes in max, which id been using already for a long time, this showed me the pros to having a teacher, the most valuable resource you can have is just someone experienced who you can ask a very direct question.
its a easy way to find out via youtube or google, digital tutors etc how to do something, getting a exact question answered more on the why can give you a insight into things very much beyond your grasp, for the longest time I was only interested in Modeling, but those short night classes got me started on animating, and while I still do less than I would like, I do more than I ever would have without them.
so pros and cons weighed up, I think short courses and maybe personal tutors (these forums can help a lot the people here are amazing when you ask for help) with a big dose of self studying is perhaps the best way to go.
if you want a full career I think you need to really learn how to learn, cause say you master zbrush and max in school, what if everyones only using maya and mudbox 5-10 years from now, or what if you work with in house software, you never know whats around the corner, but once you have the ability to teach yourself you will have the discipline and focus to really expand into all sorts of new software, new techniques, and new possibilities.
"University Pros:
- Provides you with a degree, which will help you with visas, if you intend to work outside the EU (for example in the US)."
other than that, i see no other reason. at least that's how i see it. use that money for courses and you'll learn far more. you can even learn without paying for anything, there is plenty of stuff on google and youtube.
Working in projects together with other artists, game designers and programmers really pushed me to learn as much as possible and I made a bunch of really good friends in the process.
One thing in particular that was great about my school was their collaboration with Sony Computer Entertainment, allowing us to develop games on their PS3, PSP and Vita platforms, and one of the games I worked on, together with a bunch of other students, even got published on PlayStation Store, which was a great learning experience.
All in all, for me it was an amazing experience, working elbow to elbow with other students just as motivated and passionate as me was extremely fun and it really improved my networking and social skills as well.
However, since I live in Sweden I didn't have to pay anything for my education, other than taking a small student loan to pay for living costs, so I can't really put myself in your situation.
Gives you a shit tonne of free time to teach yourself whilst not needing to work for a living!
I'm currently in my second year but I've only started to really learn games art in May. So for me, projects are taking such a long time. Especially I had zero knowledge of 3D when I came in. As long as you're dedicated, you will do really good.
Maybe I've been too harsh with my comment about free time. I guess you'd still be able to chill with friends for a couple of hours. Have a drink, watch movies. It really depends on your skills. But the university are always giving us projects.
I'd get my ass quick to Finland. Their studios are hiring. And they speak English. Find out who's their big game school over there or wherever else they're recruiting from.
Remedy (Alan Wake), Rovio (Angry Birds), Supercell (Japanese company invested over billion dollars with them for their Clash of Clans). There might be other studios I'm not aware of.
In short, go where the action is.
1) Online forums will never replace the actual classroom environment. But PC and these online schools these days get really close. I've made a ton of friends from just being active on here. I've gotten work from being active on here. If you do this you NEED to seek the feedback. PCers won't hunt you down like a classmate or teacher or guidance counselor would and get you to class.
2) Everyone learns at different speeds. I've seen people go 'oh this is a wacom? neat.' and make awesome in a month. I've seen people have a tough time after 5+ years too. Look at your past learning. How long did it take you to pick up something else new? Driving a car, geometry, etc. I'd assume your learning pace is probably consistent with other things.
3) Again depends on what you need. I think some countries require certain degree types. So if you want to go to company X you'll need this or that degree. So make sure that it'll cover for that dream job that you'll aspire to in 5-10 years down your career.
At the end of the day my path or the path that catstyle took or someone else took might not be the best for you. It might work though. No idea telling. You're motivated in mitigating your risks. Whatever path you find have the attitude you have with this post and you'll be fine.
Perhaps I'll end up doing a bit of both. For example, I thought of this path: 1) Go self-taught, make a great portfolio, apply for jobs inside the EU, 2) Work in the European game industry for a few years, 3) Do an MA program (which is only 1 year long and costs much less money - you need either a BA to get in, or some years of relevant work experience), if I want to open up the opportunity for work in the US too.
But nothing is certain yet, I still have a few months to make a final decision. :icon60:
All of them had rather general "fine art" degrees and often studied architecture, photography, theatrical scenography or just classical painting. Many were formerly just modding enthusiasts.
Although I had no experience in huge projects like Call of Duty or GTA so maybe all that folks go straight there.
ps US company would rather offer you to work as contractor/freelancer from where you are than hire you and do work visa.
I think uni is great. It offers more than just a degree - and I'm not talking about all that bullshit university lifestlye stuff. It changed everything about me and my attitude towards work. I wouldn't have ever landed a job if it wasn't for uni, even if I looked at all of those same tutorials and DVDs that I picked up while at uni.
But for some people it doesn't affect them in that way it did me. I dunno how you know if uni will be a good use of your time and effort or if you're the 'right' person for it or not. Good luck!
i don´t think you will get any kind of visa based on a fine art or game art degree.
i think uni is good to learn to work with people in projects. thats about the only thing you will get out of there, that you can´t learn by yourself. if the uni is good and a lot of people manage to jump into the industry the connections you make there will probably be valuable in the future too.
but it won´t help you to score a job at first.
not to say the experience isn´t valuable, but getting a job is still as much up to you as it is if you were self-taught.
I got an impression that a fine art degree is considered nothing of valuable by US immigration and labor authorities.
The same company had no problem to hire a graphics programmer from UK