Any cool things to look forward to for next gen? That new steampunk game lined up for Sony PS4 seems to be setting a high bar for stuff like clothes movement in game...
Well we're basically hitting the end of what's doable with pure graphic horse-power, so I imagine the next gen will bring more development in game design and story telling. Obviously there will still be graphical upgrades (we aren't yet playing Pixar movies), but largely I expect to see a continued revisiting of old design formulas, and new ideas.
In terms of power, I would imagine that we'll leave graphics around what we're seeing now, and start diving more into physics or AI. Cloth, as you mentioned, fluid dynamics, etc.
SIGGRAPH was mostly about mo-cap, so better animation is probably coming, which is nice.
Hopefully this means subsurfacescattering, indirect illumination, physically based ambient occlusion, realistic soft shadows with penumbra, image based lighting.
Also, lots of volumetric particle effects and simulations.
Post processing wise; look for bokeh depth of field, per object motion blur, film grain effects and chromatic aberration.
Yeah. The Last of Us looks really good and the character meshes were pretty dense for 2005 hardware but it handles it. Better lighting, animation and higher texture packs is really nice.
Do you guys think there's anything that might happen creatively game mechanics/design wise?
Gameplay wise I see a push for much larger scale multiplayer. There's something like three or four MMOs coming to the next gen consoles (The Division, Elder Scrolls, Destiny, etc.) Microsoft has really been pushing their new server technology with XBLive as well, which I imagine Sony will want to match.
We know there's a LOT more video memory to work with, so higher res textures are a given. More draw calls, so environments can have more clutter. UE4 will do away with lightmaps and CryEngine doesn't use them to begin with, so hopefully that means better lighting with faster prototyping. (Hopefully)
I'm hoping we see more in terms of dynamics like cloth and hair simulations. A perfect example is the PC version of Tomb Raider where the main character used TressFX hair. Basically every strand reacted independently to the environment which looked amazing, but needs high end hardware to work without bringing your frame rate to a crawl. I'm hoping the next gen consoles handle something like that gracefully.
Yeah. The Last of Us looks really good and the character meshes were pretty dense for 2005 hardware but it handles it. Better lighting, animation and higher texture packs is really nice.
Do you guys think there's anything that might happen creatively game mechanics/design wise?
Look to the indies on this one. They've been looking back towards some old classics and reinventing them with more in-depth mechanics. Path of Exile or Secret Ponchos are both mechanically similar to Diablo (and NoX, though no one remembers that one), yet they expand on that idea and make it their own thing.
I would expect to see a lot of that.
We're getting a lot of it with adventure games right now, but I fully expect to see it in pretty much every genre as we go into this new generation. Should make for some interesting games going forward.
Especially when you toss completely NEW experiences into the pile, like Papers Please.
I was hoping for more jobs but seemingly thats not happening.
Also, as much of a marketing tool better visuals are I think we need to push the under the hood/behind the scenes stuff. Most games are just predictable in terms of where they go story wise, what they throw at you and the ways you can deal with situations. Of course there must be limits to things but key finding when you could just climb over a fence for example is ridiculous in this day and age. I suppose visually you get the best bang for your buck though compared to the investment needed in creating advanced AI etc.
I heard that you might be able to use a keyboard and mouse with the Xbox One and PS4 so you can play FPS like its meant to be played with accuracy and no forced auto aim. A peripheral add on that you probably wont have to go out and buy - keyboard and mouse.
Look to the indies on this one. They've been looking back towards some old classics and reinventing them with more in-depth mechanics. Path of Exile or Secret Ponchos are both mechanically similar to Diablo (and NoX, though no one remembers that one), yet they expand on that idea and make it their own thing.
I would expect to see a lot of that.
We're getting a lot of it with adventure games right now, but I fully expect to see it in pretty much every genre as we go into this new generation. Should make for some interesting games going forward.
Especially when you toss completely NEW experiences into the pile, like Papers Please.
Some developer ought to revisit Paper Boy. That game mechanic is something I don't think is used a lot, well not in that exact same way. A game based on that design could be a fun mobile title.
Hair and cloth improvements are where its at it seems as far as the big hope in change. I didn't even know about TressFX in TR til now, that's awesome.
I'm hoping for advancements in gameplay over anything else. While I love playing Battlefield, Call of Duty, or Counter-Strike as much as the next guy, I'm really getting sick and tired of playing nothing but military FPS games.
I feel as if devs this generation were too occupied with making a game look great instead of thinking of ways to be innovative. I'm most looking forward to "A Hat in Time" although it isn't really "next-gen."
On the other hand, I can't wait to see what next-gen exclusives look like as time progresses in the next console cycle. Beyond:Two Souls, while a hit-or-miss type of game, looked absolutely beautiful. The same can be said of The Last of Us, Halo 4, GoW:J, or any other big title.
I'm kinda wondering if tessellation is just going to be used for very specific things like terrain. Has anyone fixed the issues it has causing splits at UV seams? It just seems harder to get good results with, and a lot of time, it isn't worth it.
I have already done a fair amount of next-gen work and I can tell you... it's much more about clicking "Render" and looking at B&W images, like Justin said.
Indie is way cooler, you actually get to make art.
Maybe we get more of choice-based game play ; if I take the blue pill story goes this way, take red pill story goes other way. May require lot of data, but surely a lot of assets can be re-used.
ZacD, I don't think so. But maybe some games have less issues with it? I think the texture UVs just need to adjust for the higher poly mesh. With poly count increasing on models though maybe tessellation wont be needed this upcoming gen. Most models today already look wonderful.
I say this - if morph targets/blend shapes can be used in the game engines, things will look so much cooler
Physically Based Rendering on boobies...
Generally better lighting for places for boobies to be in...
Sub Surface Scattering on boobies...
More memory for more boobies onscreen at once...
More memory for higher resolution textures on boobies...
Fancy physics based turbulence particles bouncing off boobies...
Better AI for characters with boobies...
Better cloth & jiggle physics for boobies...
Tesselation for rounder boobies...
Improved Fluid dynamics on boobies...
Pretty much more dicks11 on your boobies. :thumbup:
... mmh ...
nothing
better saying nothing "new"
Maybe more Military Shooters because the cost explode like always and every other genre is too weak. :poly117:
Cryengine given us realtime Shadows
Unreal 4 maybe Particles
Its a matter of cost/effect or it end like Tesselation. I mean the costs a exploding, the playtime is shrinking, today many singleplayer games are worst than a cinema visit. In the future i can say "like a cinema visit with big coke and nachos" :poly124:
The technolgy is okay but the Tools need a rework.
Physically Based Rendering on boobies...
Generally better lighting for places for boobies to be in...
Sub Surface Scattering on boobies...
More memory for more boobies onscreen at once...
More memory for higher resolution textures on boobies...
Fancy physics based turbulence particles bouncing off boobies...
Better AI for characters with boobies...
Better cloth & jiggle physics for boobies...
Tesselation for rounder boobies...
Improved Fluid dynamics on boobies...
Pretty much more dicks11 on your boobies. :thumbup:
I'm kinda wondering if tessellation is just going to be used for very specific things like terrain. Has anyone fixed the issues it has causing splits at UV seams? It just seems harder to get good results with, and a lot of time, it isn't worth it.
I think tessellation isn't a good way to go. At all. Visually it doesn't hold up all that well and it's not worth the performance hit you take by using it.
I believe it's better performance wise to make all small details with actual geometry. This leads to crisper shape definition, and still less tris than tessellation.
Less graphical advances, and like the last gen more of the CPU will be put into AI and Physics for games that need it.
We get lot's of benefit from more complicate shaders, and proper branched shaders that are cheap.
While the new machines have a ton more memory and faster shiz, the bandwidth for shoving round the geo hasn't really increased at the same rate, so we're going to be vertex bound.
What I predict is a rapid shift from vert based ...stuff... to texture based. We'll see more use of AO in textures than in meshes, and people will be working hard to get those verts reduced as much as possible (lighter data, less transforms, more LOD levels).
I feel as if devs this generation were too occupied with making a game look great instead of thinking of ways to be innovative. I'm most looking forward to "A Hat in Time" although it isn't really "next-gen."
Haha thanks for making my day Ah but do we really need next gen when the style is cartoony
I'd say first, not to expect games to suddenly become more innovative in terms of design and mechanics, just because of the generational shift in hardware. Our ideas haven't been limited by hardware for a long time, and you could do less pretty versions of almost everything that comes out today back on previous generations of hardware, if you really wanted too. Things will continue to progress, but at the same rate they have over this last generation.
Online is going to be a huge deal, especially with some of the stuff we're starting to see in games like Watch_Dogs or Destiny where the lines start to blur between online and single player.
Graphics wise, physically based rendering is going to be a huge deal, which is to say that lighting, and specifically the way materials react to light, is going to improve a great deal. You can also expect higher quality textures, higher poly counts, and more physics and simulation both in the environment and on characters. High quality lit particles could also have a massive effect on how games look. You'll also get higher quality camera effects like better depth of field, motion blur etc.
I wouldn't expect animation to take quite as dramatic a leap. Facial animation will certainly improve a lot and performance capture techniques will make characters seem more believable and real, but gameplay animation isn't massively limited by the current technology, as much as it's limited by the amount of animation your animators can produce, and the fact that animation systems are interactive and have to stay responsive. There are some future avenues for animation that are potentially game changing, but they're currently unproven and have their own limitations.
AI will get smarter but I don't think it'll happen as fast or to the degree that people think. Good AI realization is really hard, and I think, like design or animation the limits are more about your technique rather than hardware performance.
That leads to my final point: It's not all about hardware, technique is everything. Just look at PS3 launch games and then look at The Last of Us. That difference is all technique and improvements in development methodology. It's important to remember that what we're seeing with next-gen launch titles is going to pale in comparison to what we see in a few years time.
That leads to my final point: It's not all about hardware, technique is everything. Just look at PS3 launch games and then look at The Last of Us. That difference is all technique and improvements in development methodology. It's important to remember that what we're seeing with next-gen launch titles is going to pale in comparison to what we see in a few years time.
Very good point. When you look back at Tekken for the original Playstation back in '94 (or was it 95?) and compare it with Tekken 3 which came out a few years later, the improvement is very noticeable. The more time developers spend making games on specific hardware the better the graphics get. The latter releases of next-gen games should look amazing if you consider how good launch titles like Quantum Break & Ryse : Son of Rome already look right now.
Y'all remember when consoles debuted like every 5 years? Now it obviously takes longer, and so do the games. I wonder how long support and game releases for current-gen consoles will continue.
On a sidenote about animation, I've noticed a lot of female characters often get short hair or pony tails for, I assume, the sake of avoiding very difficult work. It's not a huge deal, but it'd be good to see longer hair that's actually animated for female characters in games.
I'd say first, not to expect games to suddenly become more innovative in terms of design and mechanics, just because of the generational shift in hardware. Our ideas haven't been limited by hardware for a long time, and you could do less pretty versions of almost everything that comes out today back on previous generations of hardware, if you really wanted too. Things will continue to progress, but at the same rate they have over this last generation.
I think we're still going to be developing more innovations in terms of design and mechanics, though. Not because of the new console generation, specifically, but because of the rise of independent developers. Lots of little guys trying new things all over the place, and fewer and fewer big guys keeping things the same. I imagine you're totally right in terms of AAA titles,though, the progress will be much the same as always.
So more innovation from the rising little guys. It may not be BECAUSE of the next generation, but it is something to expect IN the next generation.
I tried to find a similar thread prior to the last gen launch but no luck, I did find this one from 2006 (please don't bump it) interesting "next-gen" rant
The real innovations in next-gen are not going to come from AAA development, but from middle-ware providers. Crytek, Epic, Unity, those are going to be some of the most prominent companies going forward. We've reached the point where we have the processing power to do more than we actually have the bandwidth to produce. Our reach has exceeded our grasp. Improving proper cross-platform toolsets will allow for better and faster development.
Indie development will be at the forefront of most next-gen experimentation. AAA development will piggyback off of these experiments and use the more successful efforts as a jumping-off point for more polished products. The three console manufacturers taking indie development more seriously is a demonstration of the role they believe it will take going forward.
I personally foresee the rise of hobbyist developers. The improvements and affordability of middle-ware tools are going to give rise to a new class of non-profit developers. These developers will create and produce extremely small, free software. Because they are unrestrained by the need for profit, these hobbyist developers will be even more experimental than the current indie scene. Affordable and accessible software tools and hardware platforms is going to enable the pursuit of game development as a hobby instead of a profession.
Replies
In terms of power, I would imagine that we'll leave graphics around what we're seeing now, and start diving more into physics or AI. Cloth, as you mentioned, fluid dynamics, etc.
SIGGRAPH was mostly about mo-cap, so better animation is probably coming, which is nice.
Hopefully this means subsurfacescattering, indirect illumination, physically based ambient occlusion, realistic soft shadows with penumbra, image based lighting.
Also, lots of volumetric particle effects and simulations.
Post processing wise; look for bokeh depth of field, per object motion blur, film grain effects and chromatic aberration.
Some of the 'next-gen' stuff is already happening on console through certain engines though.
Do you guys think there's anything that might happen creatively game mechanics/design wise?
We know there's a LOT more video memory to work with, so higher res textures are a given. More draw calls, so environments can have more clutter. UE4 will do away with lightmaps and CryEngine doesn't use them to begin with, so hopefully that means better lighting with faster prototyping. (Hopefully)
I'm hoping we see more in terms of dynamics like cloth and hair simulations. A perfect example is the PC version of Tomb Raider where the main character used TressFX hair. Basically every strand reacted independently to the environment which looked amazing, but needs high end hardware to work without bringing your frame rate to a crawl. I'm hoping the next gen consoles handle something like that gracefully.
I would expect to see a lot of that.
We're getting a lot of it with adventure games right now, but I fully expect to see it in pretty much every genre as we go into this new generation. Should make for some interesting games going forward.
Especially when you toss completely NEW experiences into the pile, like Papers Please.
Also, as much of a marketing tool better visuals are I think we need to push the under the hood/behind the scenes stuff. Most games are just predictable in terms of where they go story wise, what they throw at you and the ways you can deal with situations. Of course there must be limits to things but key finding when you could just climb over a fence for example is ridiculous in this day and age. I suppose visually you get the best bang for your buck though compared to the investment needed in creating advanced AI etc.
Maybe some fluid effects for particles.
More indie games and stylized games.
More memory = longer view distance, more assets on screen, less tiling.
(Seriously, people are going crazy with the particles. It's like when everything was shiny back around 2003)
Some developer ought to revisit Paper Boy. That game mechanic is something I don't think is used a lot, well not in that exact same way. A game based on that design could be a fun mobile title.
Hair and cloth improvements are where its at it seems as far as the big hope in change. I didn't even know about TressFX in TR til now, that's awesome.
Tessellation on console would also be big step
I feel as if devs this generation were too occupied with making a game look great instead of thinking of ways to be innovative. I'm most looking forward to "A Hat in Time" although it isn't really "next-gen."
On the other hand, I can't wait to see what next-gen exclusives look like as time progresses in the next console cycle. Beyond:Two Souls, while a hit-or-miss type of game, looked absolutely beautiful. The same can be said of The Last of Us, Halo 4, GoW:J, or any other big title.
Indie is way cooler, you actually get to make art.
ZacD, I don't think so. But maybe some games have less issues with it? I think the texture UVs just need to adjust for the higher poly mesh. With poly count increasing on models though maybe tessellation wont be needed this upcoming gen. Most models today already look wonderful.
I say this - if morph targets/blend shapes can be used in the game engines, things will look so much cooler
Generally better lighting for places for boobies to be in...
Sub Surface Scattering on boobies...
More memory for more boobies onscreen at once...
More memory for higher resolution textures on boobies...
Fancy physics based turbulence particles bouncing off boobies...
Better AI for characters with boobies...
Better cloth & jiggle physics for boobies...
Tesselation for rounder boobies...
Improved Fluid dynamics on boobies...
Pretty much more dicks11 on your boobies. :thumbup:
nothing
better saying nothing "new"
Maybe more Military Shooters because the cost explode like always and every other genre is too weak. :poly117:
Cryengine given us realtime Shadows
Unreal 4 maybe Particles
Its a matter of cost/effect or it end like Tesselation. I mean the costs a exploding, the playtime is shrinking, today many singleplayer games are worst than a cinema visit. In the future i can say "like a cinema visit with big coke and nachos" :poly124:
The technolgy is okay but the Tools need a rework.
thumbs up for dicks11
I think tessellation isn't a good way to go. At all. Visually it doesn't hold up all that well and it's not worth the performance hit you take by using it.
Whenever there's been a new console cycle, I like to quote a friend of mine - "Bigger boxes, same old problems"
We get lot's of benefit from more complicate shaders, and proper branched shaders that are cheap.
While the new machines have a ton more memory and faster shiz, the bandwidth for shoving round the geo hasn't really increased at the same rate, so we're going to be vertex bound.
What I predict is a rapid shift from vert based ...stuff... to texture based. We'll see more use of AO in textures than in meshes, and people will be working hard to get those verts reduced as much as possible (lighter data, less transforms, more LOD levels).
Haha thanks for making my day
Online is going to be a huge deal, especially with some of the stuff we're starting to see in games like Watch_Dogs or Destiny where the lines start to blur between online and single player.
Graphics wise, physically based rendering is going to be a huge deal, which is to say that lighting, and specifically the way materials react to light, is going to improve a great deal. You can also expect higher quality textures, higher poly counts, and more physics and simulation both in the environment and on characters. High quality lit particles could also have a massive effect on how games look. You'll also get higher quality camera effects like better depth of field, motion blur etc.
I wouldn't expect animation to take quite as dramatic a leap. Facial animation will certainly improve a lot and performance capture techniques will make characters seem more believable and real, but gameplay animation isn't massively limited by the current technology, as much as it's limited by the amount of animation your animators can produce, and the fact that animation systems are interactive and have to stay responsive. There are some future avenues for animation that are potentially game changing, but they're currently unproven and have their own limitations.
AI will get smarter but I don't think it'll happen as fast or to the degree that people think. Good AI realization is really hard, and I think, like design or animation the limits are more about your technique rather than hardware performance.
That leads to my final point: It's not all about hardware, technique is everything. Just look at PS3 launch games and then look at The Last of Us. That difference is all technique and improvements in development methodology. It's important to remember that what we're seeing with next-gen launch titles is going to pale in comparison to what we see in a few years time.
Very good point. When you look back at Tekken for the original Playstation back in '94 (or was it 95?) and compare it with Tekken 3 which came out a few years later, the improvement is very noticeable. The more time developers spend making games on specific hardware the better the graphics get. The latter releases of next-gen games should look amazing if you consider how good launch titles like Quantum Break & Ryse : Son of Rome already look right now.
Y'all remember when consoles debuted like every 5 years? Now it obviously takes longer, and so do the games. I wonder how long support and game releases for current-gen consoles will continue.
On a sidenote about animation, I've noticed a lot of female characters often get short hair or pony tails for, I assume, the sake of avoiding very difficult work. It's not a huge deal, but it'd be good to see longer hair that's actually animated for female characters in games.
So more innovation from the rising little guys. It may not be BECAUSE of the next generation, but it is something to expect IN the next generation.
Indie development will be at the forefront of most next-gen experimentation. AAA development will piggyback off of these experiments and use the more successful efforts as a jumping-off point for more polished products. The three console manufacturers taking indie development more seriously is a demonstration of the role they believe it will take going forward.
I personally foresee the rise of hobbyist developers. The improvements and affordability of middle-ware tools are going to give rise to a new class of non-profit developers. These developers will create and produce extremely small, free software. Because they are unrestrained by the need for profit, these hobbyist developers will be even more experimental than the current indie scene. Affordable and accessible software tools and hardware platforms is going to enable the pursuit of game development as a hobby instead of a profession.