Where should I start?
polycounter lvl 5
Hey Polycount!
This is quite wordy, but bear with me
After ages of surfing threads I've finally decided to make an account and hopefully motivate myself to start creating more 'professional' outcomes.
I'm wondering where I go from my current position, here's a little info about my current ability:
I'm 17 in a month, and I've been using C4D for the past 2/3 years, more recently getting involved in VRAY and slightly more advanced modeling. I feel that I do have the ability to create awesome outcomes, but I lack the motivation to finish them off - so for my time using Cinema 4d (alongside, realflow, zbrush, among other programs) I have nothing to show for my time spend. I used to have my eyes set on going into CG/Motion in film and/or advertising.
I've been rethinking my career path, as I have to apply for uni in less than 6 months, and I feel that I would enjoy enviroment design, as a lot of my inspiration comes from games such as Borderlands, gears of war and various others.
So where do I go from here? I really want to start learning UDK - or another game engine, and get a real taste in if i'd enjoy it or not. I've started going through tutorials on 3DS and Maya, along side touching up my zbrush. I feel if I put 100% into it, I could create a mini outcome this time in 3 months, and hopefully post it here for feedback!
My questions are:
What program is the most valuable to learn?
Which game engine would be the best to learn?
I know there aren't any solid answers on those, but I'm looking for personal opinions - or unbiased views!
If you've gotten this far, thanks for reading!
This is quite wordy, but bear with me
After ages of surfing threads I've finally decided to make an account and hopefully motivate myself to start creating more 'professional' outcomes.
I'm wondering where I go from my current position, here's a little info about my current ability:
I'm 17 in a month, and I've been using C4D for the past 2/3 years, more recently getting involved in VRAY and slightly more advanced modeling. I feel that I do have the ability to create awesome outcomes, but I lack the motivation to finish them off - so for my time using Cinema 4d (alongside, realflow, zbrush, among other programs) I have nothing to show for my time spend. I used to have my eyes set on going into CG/Motion in film and/or advertising.
I've been rethinking my career path, as I have to apply for uni in less than 6 months, and I feel that I would enjoy enviroment design, as a lot of my inspiration comes from games such as Borderlands, gears of war and various others.
So where do I go from here? I really want to start learning UDK - or another game engine, and get a real taste in if i'd enjoy it or not. I've started going through tutorials on 3DS and Maya, along side touching up my zbrush. I feel if I put 100% into it, I could create a mini outcome this time in 3 months, and hopefully post it here for feedback!
My questions are:
What program is the most valuable to learn?
Which game engine would be the best to learn?
I know there aren't any solid answers on those, but I'm looking for personal opinions - or unbiased views!
If you've gotten this far, thanks for reading!
Replies
http://wiki.polycount.com/
Sounds like you made a proper start. Learning how to use UDK is a good idea too.
Good luck!
EDIT: Also, why do you have to apply for university? I'd put lots of effort into game art in this 6 month period and reconsider the education path at the end.
I've always loved graphic design (90% of my portfolio is graphic design) then I slowly moved from illustration to 3D - In my current graphic course (A Level) I'm doing illustration as 3D isn't an option, and before that I did fine art for two years. But I LOVE 3D, just trying to do what makes me happy
Outside of those 2 programs, you'll definitely need to know Photoshop. You should know some texturing. There isn't really an alternatives to that program to my knowledge unless you're working for a small company and they have to keep expenses low by using cheaper/free alternatives. Its a toss up between ZBrush and Mudbox, not all places require it. Learn either one. Mudbox will be easier to grasp and is convenient jumping back and forth between Maya/Max but ZBrush packs a lot of utility.
Mind you, I only looked at a dozen companies or so. My sample size is small and just based off my observation as a recent graduate.
Game engine is something I don't know much about. Unity enjoys the same navigation controls as Maya. UDK has been around for ages and I would argue is the the most commonly used game engine, but the controls aren't based on 3D software, since you navigate with WASD like in an actual game. CryEngine is fairly new (ignoring version 1+2), don't know too much about it.
On a side note, it may be beneficial to still apply for university when you get a chance, as a back up in case you decide against your career. That's several months left for you to decide as you progress through your final year at high school. By the time around next May/June comes around you can decide for sure if the world of 3D is really for you.
Oh and cool, you like graphic design as well. I originally was going to be a graphic designer until I converted over to 3D.
Although I'm probably wrong, I've always got the impression that 3DS is used predominantly for modeling and particle systems, and Maya being used for animation/keyframing. I'm very new to both so I could be wrong. I've only ever used 3DS for it's particle system and for messing around with Krakatoa. I totally forgot to mention that I've been using blender at school for the past two~ months, so I know a bit of that.
As far as game engines go, I remember being told that we're getting unity at school, for a game design BTEC (Similar to a level, but coursework based). But most of my favorite games are using UDK, and I'm currently leaning towards that one anyway.
I would hope to do maybe 5 hours of each program a week (Over the summer holidays), then make as much progress as I can on making an outcome.
One thing I want to touch on though is when you decide between Maya and 3d Studio Max be sure you know what your university will mainstream for example there's a place called Gnomon here that is set on Maya except for a select few courses that are 3ds max related.
3d Studio Max in terms of modeling has the potential of really awesome non destructive modeling with it's modifier stack but at the cost of learning 3d studio max you will run into bugs now again that are annoying though not detrimental. (and as versions go on it seems to never compare to 2009 from what I hear)
Another thing to note is some real serious modelers really enjoy tools such as modo, xsi, and lightweave.
The reason I choose max is because of it's versatility in the industry when it comes to 3rd party fx. I love how I can keep my 3d modeling knowledge in the same package as my particle fx (fume/krak/tp)
Now I'm naturally biased of course but from what I hear Maya's advantage over max is it's scripting capabilities, I guess more of an in house thing? And of course animation.
As for the whole game engine thing - UDK is most popular but from what I hear it's more important just to experience one of the many because the knowledge is transferable. (and UDK4 is coming out this year I believe anyway)
You can just main in one of the applications and have a good understanding of the other.
Blender is a great program but I have not heard of any big studios that uses Blender. Its good for freelance jobs since its free, but its not the industry standard for whatever reason.
5 hours sounds fairly lacking if its per week, unless you meant all the programs 5 hours a week which I think that's what you meant. Regardless you should be very familiar with one primary program (3ds Max/Maya, Photoshop, Mudbox/ZBrush) instead of knowing everything but not being particularly great at any.
Just wanted to add that you should probably diverge your time between the Sculpting and Modeling programs. You can learn how to do everything you essentially need in a sculpting program but I feel like the concepts would be much harder to grasp (especially in ZBrush, when everything and it's mother is nested in it's default UI). I feel like if you specialize in Max/Maya and grasp the tool by the balls you will be able to better apply your knowledge to sculpting, be versatile, and can compensate for lack of sculpting skills when you start off.
I completely forgot about modo and lightweave, I've heard great things about them but cannot say that i've ever looked into them. I would love to go to uni in London, and I've only been looking at motion design, 3D design and Graphic Design courses. So I'll need to look into actual game design at uni.
From my prior knowledge and what's been said here, I'll go ahead and get my head round 3DS Max and Mudbox, I'll also have a look into Modo or Lightweave. On top of that I'll start practicing more with zBrush and texturing.
What do you mean when you say "Non destructive modeling"?
Meteora: I'm not quite sure why I said 5 hours (which would be p/ program) But per week that's not actually that time at all, thinking about it. - Ideally I'd be spending as much time as possible learning new stuff and putting it into use for my project. As I've said before, I'll have to look into Mudbox, from what you guys have said it links with 3DS/Maya but doesn't have as much functionality as zBrush.
Blender is great, I've seen some really impressive work come out of it, and the new cycles renderer is awesome. However I've only ever used it for one project, which I ended up actually exporting and rendering through C4D's physical renderer (as I felt more comfortable with C4D).
The biggest problem of all is to stay motivated/inspired to continue learning programs. I'm not worried about not being motivated to continue with the project throughout the summer as once I get in the zone I can sit there for hours. But watching tutorials can be slow and dull.
Thanks for the reply guys, can't wait to get started!
By non destructive, I'm just referring to 3ds max's modifier stack which is like the bread and butter of 3ds max's modeling advantages.
it essentially is a stack of modifiers that can manipulate your model in a linear ascending fashion in which you can toggle each modifier on and off or rearrange at any time.
good luck on your journey ;D
**edited because as meteora pointed out I was using bane wrong haha, I guess for learning it can be your bane
What Program? Max or Maya, being familiar with both is useful if the place you end up at uses the other one. But, in the end, they're only tools and it's more about what you can do with your tools than the tool you use.
Which game engine? UDK is fine. Though, there's a strong possibility that you will possibly use a proprietary in-house game engine. I recently had my first project released, we used an in-house engine.
With the game engine, I intend on creating a personal project over the summer, not anything for company which would require and in-house engine, but I appreciate where you're coming from
With the soon to be released UDK4 (or UE4) is there much point me starting my project now in UE3, or would i need to start from fresh in the new one?
Thanks!
By bane what he probably meant was stupid things like having to apply a UWV Unwrap into the modifier stack to unwrap it. Coming from Maya I was completely baffled by this approach as I searched for like half an hour trying to find the stupid UV Editor. But the modifier stack is great once you understand it (which I haven't fully).
From what I saw in the video that maximumsproductions linked, it looks very similar to what blender uses, and the small section inside of C4D used to modify models (like deformers). Thanks for your help
Learning the intricacies of any software takes time, and the last thing you want to do is slow yourself down trying to learn two (functionally identical) tools at the same time. Install both packages, try them out for a few hours apiece, and settle on whichever one makes the most sense to you. Don't force yourself to learn one over the other just because someone says one studio uses [x] while another uses [y] - pick the one that lets you start learning about the concepts, not the buttons.
At least initially, the fewer software programs you have to get your head around, the better. Focus on one modeling package, one sculpting program, Photoshop for texturing, and one game engine. That's more than enough to get your teeth into. When you're ready, think about branching out to something like Modo, which many artists swear by for specialized modeling tasks.
Remember - your goal is to become a better artist, and software programs are just tools. Don't get caught up in the software wars - just pick one up, go for it, and make art that kicks ass.
As danshewan has said, your goal is to become a better artist.
What are your foundation art skills like? Can you draw? do you know much colour theory? understand composition? Understand light and materials / surfaces?
These subjects are just as important as learning the software if you want to make good assets / scenes.
SnakeDoctor: Awesome, hasn't thought of it like that. I think I'll probably pick up 3DS now, and whenever the time comes to learn maya, I'll give it a shot.
Vysuki: My foundation stills in art are fine, although it doesn't count for much, I passed my GCSE (afine) art with an A*, which includes drawing techniques, painting, sculpting and so on. My colour theory is alright as well, more recently I've been doing a lot of illustrative work, especially with my A level graphics course, which I've just submitted my work for marking. Composition is fine, but from what I can see it varies from medium to medium, will need to do research on that. My lighting and material work has more recently taken a step up, been working a lot with hard surface renders EG modeled and textured a phone for a mock-up phone advert for one of my classes, rendered with C4Ds physical renderer.
However, UV unwrapping and texturing is something I've never actually had to do, as well as normal, ambient occlusion and reflection passes, then compiling them to create one texture (I'm not even sure that's the correct, goes to show). This is one of the things which I know can make/break your environment/model so I'll be spending some time looking through tutorials and gathering reference.
TeeJay: I have the student version of C4D which is free if you can prove you're currently in school. as for Vray and realflow I'm using the trial versions.
I totally get what you're saying. From what I can tell, all I'll need to learn is texturing/unwrapping and the basics of the Unreal Engine, as well as this I know that the UE documentation is an awesome place to learn, and covers just about everything. I might purchase a tutorial which runs from start to finish about making an environment in the UDK engine.
Thanks a lot everyone for your replies! Great help and awesome community!
Start texturing stuff. You should know some texturing, I would believe the vast majority of studios have modellers who also do textures. Texturing artists is kind of much more specialised role reserved for the bigger studios.
I ended up choosing to go to university though because I was fascinated with aerospace engineering and could see myself working in that field. Imo if you want to be in the game industry/graphic designer, ect. then you really have to put yourself in a position where you are able to practice and work towards getting a job in that field. I was foolish in thinking I could continue to practice 3d graphics while studying in uni. I only have the time when school is out, or I take a small course load. It also depends on what you will be studying,, some majors are much less demanding and there is plenty of free time.
Holy crap, are you bizarro me? I had always drawn, and throughout high school, spent a lot of time tinkering with 3d modeling packages, and messing around with editing games, but nothing too serious.
But when it came time to go to college, having always been fascinated with science and technology, I decided to pursue a degree in mechanical engineering. I completed two years. My grades were struggling and my notes were covered in sketches. I realized that during all that time, I was drawing, painting in Photoshop, and modelling in Blender when I should have been studying. If I had spent even half of that time with my engineering studies, I would have been making straight A's. I knew what to do.
I packed my bags, and started seriously studying art.
I'll do this straight away as texturing is the part that makes/breaks the environment. I'll look into texturing with photoshop, different styles and methods as well as improving my concept art skills and general digital drawing. I've not touched my Intuos in a very long time. But it's hard at the moment to fit anything in between school/homework/coursework/gym and sleep. Any time I do have I just feel shattered, which I guess is why I'll save all this for the summer holidays (3 weeks, can't wait!). I'd really like to try something unique and maybe do vector based texturing, or really geometric and clean and see where I go from there. But I'll probably do that AFTER I follow a "start to finish" style tutorial, to get my grips on what I need to do.
CDeniz & Brandon.LaFrance; I have always been interested with graphics and 3D design, and within the past few years have started to take it a lot more seriously. I always draw and doodle in my free time, fill up various sketchbooks, always do something creative with my day, and when I don't I always feel that I've wasted my day. I'm only 16 and most of the money/items that I own, comes from doing various graphics jobs (be it through youtube, local people, family, friends so on) so I feel that this is for sure the path I'd want to take.
But I guess the problem is, even if I feel at the end of my two years at 6th form, ready to move onto UNI - I decide that I don't want to continue with 3d/graphic/game design I'm literally fucked, as I won't be able to go anywhere off just a Maths and a computing A level (assuming I pass). And to be honest, I don't have much interest in anything else other than skating/snowboarding/longboarding and games. Everything I do in my free time is art based which I have no problem with. But I've closed all my doors pretty early.
And for that reason, I'd really like to kickstart my opportunities by starting my creative portfolio now (ish), so I'm already ahead of the competition coming out the other side of uni. If that makes sense. Even if after I get into game design, and I feel it's not for me, I can always revert back to general 3D/motion or graphic design.
But I've realised how much of my inspiration comes from games. Which is why I'd really like to give it a go.
At 16 you're super young. Try things out. Try graphic design, 3D, animation, etc. They're all as deep as you want them to be. I don't know how education works in your country, but around the time you actually go to Uni, pick ONE to focus on and make that you're "thing". Take electives in other fields if you like, but become an expert in that one thing. It will serve you far more than being overly concerned with a backup plan.
On backup plans however, business is always a good thing to look into. If during your artistic endeavors, especially if you like 3D, you become curious about code, look into Python. It's easy, versatile, and a great bridge to other languages.
Good luck!
Plenty of sound advice ITT for anyone going through these exact situation.
With the student loan I can live for the new two years, with tuition and guidance in a field of my choice. Build portfolio work through both uni AND free time, and get access to the universities contacts/job board (which from what I can tell, can be very valuable). Plus, a degree never hurt anyone. Having a BA Hons in Game Design~ does seem very pointless (no offence intended) but it's the path I (currently) want to follow. IMO games are the films of the future, with coming technology full play emersion will come within the next few years, and I cannot wait to be a part of it.
I hope I've got my point across, and it makes sense. I see uni as more of a chance to transition to adulthood, gaining contacts, and building that kickass portfolio.
Equanim: I've tried everything, and gotten really stuck in to it all - even gone as far as making money from almost everything I've touched within my creative travel; graphic design, 3d, ui, pixel art, 2d motion and so on. Which for me is an awesome way to get a peek into the professional industry. The one bit I'm missing out on, which is VERY important, is the collaboration or industry work, i'd love to work with people to create an outcome, but i've never gotten the chance. As I said in my reply to TeeJay, I think that videogames are the films of the future, full emersion is right round the corner and I'd love to be a part of the process. It's more of the going to uni and taking part, ideally I'd love a degree in maths or some form of science, but I know that's not going to happen.
Let's just hope that whatever I choose I can stick with, as you may have noticed from my posts in here, I do jump around a bit