Need Recent Grad Advice
polycounter lvl 6
I just recently graduated with a Bachelor of Science in Video Game Art and Design. Afterwards I moved back to the West Coast to the East Coast. I basically couldn't afford it on the West Coast after school. I was on GI Benefits. I was in the Marine Corp Reserve Full time and going to school full time. When I graduated that was the end of my benefits and I realized my family and I couldn't afford to stay in the West Coast much longer with no job after graduation. I had a portfolio show before graduation that went well and impressive work to show but basically ALOT of "employers" were blowing smoke and virtually no video game employers showed up at all. This was verified after I immediately contacted potential leads that I received at the show after graduation. While in school I had a mentorship with a AAA game company and subsequently got hired after that for a short time . It quickly became apparent to me that it was just a revolving door of interns and temp hires to make their deadlines as they were severely needing help. Now I am Florida and I have been putting in applications to game companies with little or no response and even some military contractors working on designing 3D content for their virtual trainers. I have been in Florida for almost 3 months and I put in (logging in their online systems/cover letters, work samples. etc. about 7-12 applications a week. I would prefer a gig in Florida as my family is here and I can't afford to go back to a bigger state or in the city (like New York) I would basically be back in the same situation again making good money but the cost of living and expenses being high. I started applying to neighboring states just now like Atlanta. I don't really have bills, no credit cards, kids, or anything like that. Just the necessaries of living and my wife. (Who works also.)I am also a USMC Veteran with 2 enlistments in the Corps. I have been on Gamedev map, Polycount, Gamasutra, and every Florida game company or 3D military contractor that you can think of in and out of the area. I would really like to get a gig at Electronic Arts for the fact it's in Orlando, but I have applied for 8 jobs in the past couple of months to this particular company (to include non Art Jobs )still with no luck. I even had multiple conversations with the Talent Acquisition Manager and Sr. Hiring Manager. Most jobs I see such as the ones on Polycount are asking for overseas employment and I don't have a European Work Visa. Even though my wife is foreign and I lived overseas while in the Military. (No, I didn't meet my wife overseas.)I am kinda perplexed on what to do. I am about to go back working "normal" jobs as the money is starting to wear thin. You can view examples of my work at http://www.mrmauricejohnson.net/. I have been supported by some in the community and even managed to snag free licensees for nDo2 and Crazy Bump so I can keep my skills sharp and continue to make new content for my site. If anyone has any advices or suggestions for me that would be greatly appreciated. I am trying to stay positive here. I am a recent graduate, Marine Veteran, and I can't even get unemployment benefits. Any leads, or advice anyone can give to me I am all ears. I just hope I can keep myself from being so frustrated and humble with this whole situation.
Replies
As far as the art jobs go, your portfolio isn't there yet. I can tell you're focused on environment art which is good, but the environments are quite lacking in materials/textures, and lighting. Some of the designs are weak as well, and I think you'd be better served working from a pro concept and really focusing on matching at least a current gen quality level. That can include hand painted stuff as Justin mentioned, or more realistic work, but the quality level still needs to match what's currently being done regardless of style.
Thank you for the replies. I appreciate the critiques! Don't get me wrong. I don't want to come off like I have an attitude like I am too good for this, that, etc. but I do know what skills I can bring to the table and I expect to get paid for what I am worth. I don't want to come off like I am entitled to something, but I can guarantee that any position I get chosen for will get a hard, passionate, dependable and quality worker. The worst thing for me is to be in a position that a company gets to get a bunch of work out from me, but I don't really have any progression of the skills that I already know, learned from school, or need to get better at. Or even worse don't get to use any of the skills that I know and end up doing something completely different. By your critiques I want to be able to get better. I do see where I would like to get just by going online and playing games. You made a good point about my resume as it IS written for an job in the Art Department. Also, I wasn't bashing QA or Testers as my wife and brother -n-law both been in those types of positions, heck I even mentioned that I would be opened to administrative positions as I have the background for that. The problem is I feel that the longer I stay in a non-Art position that harder it would be for me to get something in the future and my skills will get dull. It also doesn't help that I don't have any feedback (not that I would expect any) from Art Directors and such on my current work. As for my portfolio "not being up there" I was a late bloomer towards the end of school and not to play the blame game but I didn't really get what I needed from school. I seemed to get more from actually being part of a industry pipeline (mainly because I asked a million questions about everything) but I am totally open to help, and critiques good or bad as long as I also get advice on how to improve those faults. I am starting on some new work: http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=121909
Honestly, I think what he was saying is that you do not yet possess the skills to be a value member of a production team. And if you do possess those skills, then they are not present in your portfolio.
Images like this --
http://d2bm3ljpacyxu8.cloudfront.net/width/930/crop/0,0,930x523/www.mrmauricejohnson.net/05.jpg
-- will convey to an art director that you have a fundamental lack of understanding of light, color, material, etc. It is flatly lit, the composition is boring, the textures are poor, there is no semblance of detail, of and understanding of contour or proportion, nor any believability at all, and to top that off an absence of technical understanding.
If you imagine games as a continuum from the early days of realism, 1995ish, to now, 2013, your work stands somewhere in early 1998, when the artists were either programmers faking it or true artists bound by severe technical limitations. The barrier to entry is much, much higher, and peoples here on polycount with years of experience and practice on you are themselves having trouble finding jobs.
You have a long way to go at this point, seemingly from your portfolio, before your art starts turning heads and getting peoples notice.
I'm not trying to be harsh, and people here might think me wrong and say so, but that's how it seems to me. You might be a hard worker, and excited about joining the industry, but what the industry is looking for is talent first, and then enthusiasm.
Nope, no offense taken. It is a serious deal to me and I feel like I have a ways to go even with schooling. What I meant by my what I am worth is the fact that I have other skills particularly in my 2D work that I also get praise for. Just for information both those environments were graded as B work and that's what I am talking about. I got the feeling that in the industry that it seems like so much is subjective depending on the individual one person like it and says it's passible while another one says it completely sucks. Some Industry professionals praised my recent props..etc So I am stuck without a real bar to shoot for. Honestly from what I see in games now after being out of them for so long and heck what people even post on polycount (including everyone on this page that took the time to respond to my thread) I feel like I totally suck. I am beginning to work on a new environment with some of the new tools I acquired so maybe you guys can help me make that environment the best it can be: http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=121909 I do appreciate the honest feedback guys because it really sucks after working my @$$ off, the military and dealing with my for-profit school it's really depressive to go back after years to just working regular sh*t again. I feel like I paid a lot of money for nothing and basically I am just teaching myself anyways till the very end. It's hard to stay motivated with all this going on.
I think you're starting to get the idea though. Try not to rely on other people to set your bar. Or rely on outside sources for improvement. Put your work right next to the best and judge for yourself. Then examine in detail what's going on. There are also some wonderful people who released their entire environments. I'd look for those and study those, it's like self-improvement served up on a platter.
Again, don't focus too much on outside sources. Focus on yourself. If you could pay a school, and it'd be guaranteed they'd make you into an industry ready artist, shit, I'd go find a coach and get myself into the NBA. When it comes to self-improvement, you get back what you put into it. School's a great place to make connections and a degree in many cases can be very useful. But I hear you though, students get abused a bit on tuition for a service like education, just don't focus on that. Nothing you can do about that now.
I know how tough it is. I'm struggling a lot right now myself. But keep your head up and keep trucking. Do what you need to do to get by. And keep using your head. Practice doesn't necessarily guarantee improvement. Got to think, analyze, and problem solve.
Keep at it!
Thanks Evan. What beautiful environments on your page especially the breakdown of the props! Geez, I mean I am starting to see the point just looking at everyone's homepage's that posted on my thread. I mean you guys will have just one prop and that will blow away my entire website. Either way..I suck. I guess, the next stop for me is to find an apprenticeship. I will continue to try and complete this new scene on my own that I am working on, but it continues to be hard especially with me beginning to work again to pay the bills and such. I feel like I need more schooling with someone that is experienced and actually will invest the time into me and train me properly. I also need to be able to continue to acquire the latest software (legally) without going further into the rabbit hole as I am especially with the next gen consoles already on the horizon. I am just in a weird depressive spot at the moment. I really never considered what would happen if I wasn't good at this. I always wanted to design games and be in the industry I really never envisioned doing anything else even while I was in the military. That way just so I could go to school for gaming. I have the feeling that I have all these particular skills and nothing to do with them everything has to be refined. Thanks for posting man. This has been an eye opener.
Once I started my third year at Itt Tech, I started to notice a few things were off. I had only had one 3d modeling class that had someone teach who never used 3ds max before. The rest were "design theory classes" I had been doing some stuff on my own but really when you have a class where the Teacher doesnt know how to do stuff, I really had been doing everything wrong. So back in May of 2011 I found polycount and posted what I had though was decent art. That day I learned my school was not going to teach my what I needed and that with the help of polycount and my own determination I had to learn it myself.
Fast forward to today, 2 years later and I still don't have a industry job but you know what thats ok. I am still learning and improving, and that will never stop. My work when I joined here looks like your work now pretty much. It is going to be a long hard road to get your work up to industry standard, hell even worse now with next gen starting. While I was typing this the bar just got raised a bit more I bet. My work is not at that bar yet but I'm getting close. It has been a long 2 years, going from barely knowing how to model and not knowing what a spec map was to where I am at now. I even started a topic not too long ago pointing out all of my biggest weakness and trying to fix them. You just have to keep going, and remember to keep in your head to have fun with it. If you are not enjoying it at least some of the time you might want to rethink if you want this as a career.
This whole thing is a mess I bit so I'll summarize. You have a long way to go with a ever rising bar as a standard. If that doesn't scare you, then just go at it. However you need to understand scope before tackling huge projects. That topic you posed seems huge in scope yet from your work you are stuff struggling with some basic stuff. Start small and work your way up, eventually you will get better. I know its crappy, I have worked the same retail job for almost 5 years now, but I go home after and work on improving my art and I know it will pay off.
Also what EvanL said is very true. Nothing you can do about getting in debt from a shitty school. You just have to make the best of it. It's going to be rough but fight though it.
This. Everything about this. Don't sit around waiting for someone to make you better. You have to go seize it for yourself.
Someone said don't compare yourself to others, but i would say you should, look at work made by people way better then yourself, think about why it looks so good, aim for it, fail, and repeat.
Also I wouldn't go for environments, it might sound like the most logical choice if you want to be an environment artist, but think small, make small cool props for 2 - 3 days each and make them look really nice, as you said 1 good prop can blow your whole portfolio away, scale doesn't really impress if each individual asset looks like crap. Environments also tend to take a long time to make, and you probably will get a lot better while your making the environment, which will make you want to go back to each asset every time you find out how to make something look better to increase the level of the whole environment.
Thanks Jonas. I took a look at your props even the thumbnails seems to have tons of details even from afar. Maybe I should still just concentrate on props so I won't feel so overwhelmed. There is a real problem for me as far as trying to make a pipeline for myself. When I was at school, I was constantly told to get out of the habit of cranking out just props and work on putting completed scenes together and we all see how that worked out. Well once I just concentrated on one prop on my site (the sci-fi wall) and my grade slightly improved, but I was on this one prop for like 2 quarters and even though my grade in school raised slightly, now after graduation I am being told and shown that all my stuff is crap. But I see your point. I am pretty much dumping out everything I was told in school. I think I am just going to work on this Iron Man Scene and just stay on this one scene for however long it takes to get something decent finally.
If i was a potential employer (polycount has some lurking around =P) I would take one look at a wall of text (if i ever came across it) and would be discouraged as to investigating further about that particular person as it shows a lack in professional presentation.
Often presentation can be the difference between getting your foot in the door.
Simple things add up to make a big difference & you don't want to be giving anybody an excuse to pass you over!
There might be the right ways and the best ways to get better, but what is most important is to keep yourself motivated, so you just need to keep making what you feel like making.
Most of what I'm seeing from your normal maps is just noise. I don't see much evidence of a good high-poly bake. There are also some features modeled into the geometry that could probably be better left to the normal map alone. In a few cases these are actually creating lighting errors. (look at the green octagonal windows on the valiant pod and the pink light above the yellow caution stripe on the space propane canister) Neither of those features really affects the silhouette of the model, and cutting geo for them in a low poly just increases the poly count and causes errors. If the green windows were done with the texture they wouldn't have to be low poly looking octagons, and the pink LED light is really too small to justify using polys.
You also aren't getting much out of the spec maps on these models... it could be the lighting used for the renders or something in the maps themselves... they're not posted so I really can't say. It's probably also a good idea to post texture samples with portfolio work.
Sorry to rip into your stuff a bit, but I thought some examples might help show where there is room for improvement. Working on a single prop until it's pro grade and perfect might help eliminate some bad habits and give you an improved skill set going forward.
I know what its like to have to abandon a student folio and start over, but each new and better piece you add to the top means an old crummy one deleted from the bottom. Good luck man!
No problem at all. I NEED the feedback as much as I can. And don't worry about ripping on me. The hardest critic for my work is myself because I am uber passionate about me being in this field. Is there anything even salvageable or has potential at with my 3D props? I am basically about to trash everything. I really liked how that Sci-Fall wall was coming out. Is that crap too?
Good point. Sometimes I forget because I am such a forum kinda guy that there are potential employers that do lurk about . Unfortunately, none of them have contacted me....:thumbup:
I think I am going to start with just doing some props and trying to get a workflow that works for me and then post them on here for critique. You guys seem to be brutally honest in your feedback and I really need the feedback and more importantly the tips to dramatically improve.
Is there is any 3D work that is salvageable on my site please let me know otherwise, it's all going down the drain.
I can read your frustration pretty easily in that first post. Some immediate thoughts are, don't become fixated on the Game or Entertainment industry as they are volatile. As you already know, the game companies run larger crews while in development, but as soon as the project is ready for shipping, they start laying off people. The other situation that is studios getting shut down.
The film industry works the same way. Production runs 8-12 weeks on most films (not huge epics) and they generally use a lot of smaller studios for work, but generally just small bits.
Where I would focus your search for 3D work is Serious Gaming (as you already know, simulation), Insurance companies, and just about any company that has a fun product with a large commercial budget.
Think outside the box. The world of 3D (and better paychecks/long term employment) is found where you least expect it.
Good luck and keep your powder dry.
Awesome. It's never easy to have your work picked apart, but Perseverance is an asset to anyone who wants to be part of this industry. (And probably anyone who wants to make a living as an artist)
It's always possible to go back and re-do old pieces, and ultimately it's your time and your choice. However, I think you might be better off moving on to something new. I'm not really sure what the workflow was with the wall, so I'll make a few suggestions about process.
That's a whole lotta info, and some of its probably pretty obvious, but It's more or less my process, and I tried to point out some of the common pitfalls at each step. (hopefully didnt leave something obvious out... been a long day)
I think the sci fi wall suffered from a few of these (uneven texture density, modeled in features that don't affect the silhouette, and textures that don't really enhance the form of the object.) It's kinda hard to guess what your workflow was from just a few renders of the finished LP. 6344 is a hell of a lot of polys for a wall panel. even if it's player height. Some stuff to keep in mind when you launch into your next piece. Drop a link to your WIP thread here when you get rolling. I'll keep an eye out for it.
Semper Fi, Do or Die! Nice to see a fellow Marine on the forums. I appreciate the response. Indeed, I have seen a lot of unprofessional behavior while my short time in the industry and it has come to me that (to be blunt) there were are a lot of #^$%& in the industry and they tend to get away with it well, because they are extremely good.
I guess I am just too nice (I have my moments..lol), but I even had classmates that I helped while in school become totally #$%@^ after getting a little taste of what the industry had to offer and that part of the industry has totally turned me off. I just would like for someone to give me the opportunity to get a break so I can make my own destiny and give back to others that are in a similar situation as myself.
I never ever wanted to do anything else but be in the game industry so for me to be struggling to be in the video game industry is more than a big deal to me.
Right now I totally agree with your advice and have applied to out of the box stuff as well such as military virtual trainers and simulators. Right, now I am open to anything as long as I can improve the skills that I learned while in school.
Well, I just wanted to be realistic and compared to everyone else I have a lot of work to do. I don't want to be delusional. On a positive note I did get a return from human resources today of N-Space, so as you suggested I am going to keep cranking out small props and get feedback.
Goat Justice - I really appreciate all the feedback I am getting. In a few days I will post a prop for critique and start the process all over again.
I know exactly what you mean, gone through the same route myself... except I don't even have the military service to show off. Despite what the department head assures me of what is 80% employment into the industry, at the time of my acceptance, I knew 1 year of postgrade won't get me into the industry without massive luck. Now, I can see it will likely be classmates with previous 3D experience who make up that 80%. The other 20% will likely be traditional-background painter, graphics designer, and fine art installation artists who never stopped wondering why we were accepted in the first place (except for our international tuition money).
But anyway, I'll still try, and until I get where I want both career-wise and skill-wise, I just have to accept a any-job during the day/night that is enough to pay bills will have to be taken.
You are right, I totally forgot to add a plate! Fixed. And yes, that is the Autobot Matrix of Leadership.
I am just worried because I don't want these other jobs that I just may be doing to "pay the bills" take all my time away from working on my portfolio. I know how hard it is doing the balancing act I did it all the way through school. Oh yeah, I don't believe in luck. Luck is for losers! lol
Your right, Jason. Let me do that now...
at a glance i can tell you right now you should stop trying to be crazy uniqe and design your own stuff, until you learn the craft of 3d a little better. strive to be a craftsman as well as an artist and separate the two, makes learning the tools easier (not being tied to art).just model a simple fire hydrant(for example) as close as you can, and texture it. do not stop until it matches the ref, paint it photochop it or whatever you need to do. no normals etc, just a model and color map. start thinking about lighting/edges/materilas (stick to the ref).then step up in complexity/design as you go.
look at the posts after your image, all the comments are on design which will fail without the craftsmanship needed to make thing look real/cool etc.
That is really cool of you! I will definitely hit you up on a PM in a few.
No doubt! I just started my job today with my wife and I can already tell you I am exhausted. Mentally and physically. The last thing I want to do right now is sit in front of the computer for some in-depth thinking and such. I guess I am going to have to do my practice on some of my days off (if I get any) and hope that I can get quick enough to crank out updated and better work.
It's tough. I am not the type that sits around and gets unhealthy either. I try to work out most during the week just so I can stay fit. Especially in our line of work. Sitting in front of the computer and all the unhealthy crap "catering" shoves down are throats when you do get a job before we get back to work is not very productive either.
It hasn't been easy, and I'll only be able to maintain this until my my savings run out, but if I play my cards right, and tightly watch my budget, I'll be able to make some significant contributions to my portfolio in that time. Three weeks into this new schedule, and so far, its the best decision I've ever made.
Apparently I'm not the only one to be disappointed because of ''schools''.
( Sorry for my english, I'll do my best
I did two years of studies (not three because of an art school I've made before ) in a school that supposed to teach 3D art. I didn't know the standard in video game art, so I wasn't worried or suspicious.
Big mistake haha!
If I had to summarize what I learned down here :
2D: "Now you draw some space warriors!" :poly127:
3D: The teacher was good, but we've only done low poly characters and some Zbrush at the end of the third year.
No "next gen'' at all (high->low, diffuse/specular/gloss etc) , no environment , no UDK (unity for group project, but only a few were using it), no lightning, no nothing!
Ok, rig and animation was useful!
They gave us advice for our website ''Put a lot of text, describe everythiiiiiings" It was a mess of texts with some screenshots haha :poly142:
I hate myself for these two years and the 12000 euros loan I have on my shoulders.
It's all my fault, I didn't react when I was here, I didn't saw the problems before the end of third years.
Just after school I'v made a 3 months internship on a Ios game. And and I discovered Polycount during this time, and it was a nice digital punch in my face...
"God! I'm a s""t! What a waste of two years"
After this day I've spend my time working on what I should know.
I've done stuff for Wasteland 2, one freelance gig, I work with a team on a fun indie project, personal stuff of course, I focus on what I need to learn now, where I want to be in the future etc..
Cheer up everyone, it take what it take, but eh, one day
Thanks polycount
ignore'