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Cool Man

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olivierth polycounter lvl 9
I had started a thread called Cool Man but I can't find it anywhere...


Here it goes again.

This is a new project I started after seeing this image. That guy is the definition of "cool"! I'm still not sure if I want to reproduce the same thing or add my own touch to it.

BASE_REF_zpsf5187455.jpg





Cool_Man_10_comp_zps3e100512.jpg

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  • BradMyers82
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    BradMyers82 interpolator
    Looks really good so far. The main thing that sticks out is the anatomy in the forearm and bicep area. The way its pinching like that in the elbow joint is incorrect. The insertion point on the lower part of the bicep looks good though. Nice work overall though, face is looking very solid!
  • Stromberg90
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    Stromberg90 polycounter lvl 11
    Here you go http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=121332
    Just go into you profile and look at the threads you have made.

    Nice start you have on this, I think the cloth around the shoulder needs to be puffed up more to match the reference.

    Would be nice to see the face without the blockout classes, since you will be able to slightly see through them.
  • Giacomo X
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    Giacomo X polycounter lvl 6
    Looks OK...I'm not buying the fabric at all, though. Right now it feels like you're basically copying your base mesh and adding a few wrinkles....to my eye it doesn't have any thickness, which is really jarring. If it were me I'd pay a lot more attention to how the clothing drapes and folds...for example, look at the rolled-up sleeves in your reference photo.

    Hope that is of some use.
  • Brandon.LaFrance
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    Brandon.LaFrance polycount sponsor
    The face looks fantastic, it would be helpful to take a look at those eyes, but from what I can see, it looks great. Just two things about the face stand out to me.

    1. In the photo, the dude has a bit of an angry grimace going on that pulls his upper lip up and out, resulting in an inflation of the form above the nasolabial fold that really catches a highlight.
    2. This character is bald, and hes got a pretty distinctive cranium. It wouldn't hurt to exaggerate the angles up there so you can really read more of the planes that make up the top of the head.

    The others touched on the cloth, and I tend to agree.

    1. The sleeves have an awesome silhouette in your reference. Its almost as if his coolness is exploding out of his shoulders. I'm not reading any of that in your sculpt.
    2. In addition, the amount of cool that this man possesses is much to high to be contained by that tight vest that you've sculpted, loosen it up a bit to fill out the negative space around his torso.

    Despite those critiques, you're really on the right track with this one. Awesome subject and awesome execution. I can't wait to see the finished product.
  • MM
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    MM polycounter lvl 18
    correct me if i am wrong, but i believe the cloth is not sculpted but simulated.
    may be Marvelous Designer ?

    the thing about cloth sim is that it creates this shrink wrapped feeling which yours has and lot of the folds are static and lacks memory folds.

    so you have to manually sculpt in those folds and create that loose dynamic drapery with lot of memory folds.

    anyways, really nice start on the character. the face is looking good.
  • olivierth
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    olivierth polycounter lvl 9
    BradMyers82 - Thanks! I Bent the elbows and didn't resculpt. I'll get on that soon.

    Stromberg90 - Thanks, I was used to just search for my thread since it was quicker but when I search for "Cool Man" I can't find a thing weirdly... Oh well! You can see the head without glasses. The eyes are too symmetrical right now.


    Giacomo X - I'm working on the clothing to have it less shrinked onto the model. For thing like the rolling of the sleaves, I'll do that in zbrush later.

    Brandon.LaFrance - Thank you! I've worked on the head's silhouette. I'm not trying to get the same exact character down to the smallest detail. I'm working on the cloth right now. Anything I can't do in Marvelous designer I'll do in Zbrush and photoshop (bump map).


    amile duan - Thanks! He just looks super manly and has pink shoes. Fun contrast.

    MM - Thank you. Yes, it's done in Marvelous designer. I'll get as far as possible before getting into Zbrush.



    Here's the head so far. This is just the high res model that I'll bake on the low res. The beard will be changed so don't mind it. I wonder how I'll get a good beard in low res...

    Cool_Man_11_zps3a9a80a9.jpg
  • olivierth
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    olivierth polycounter lvl 9
    I did some work on the anatomy. I'm now working on the shoes.


    Cool_Man_14_zps9d2cab4c.jpg~original
  • olivierth
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    olivierth polycounter lvl 9
  • pablohurtado
    In my opinion, I think this guy looking pretty cool. The only thing that looks off is the elbow region, it looks pinched/too skinny. Good stuff.
  • Brandon.LaFrance
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    Brandon.LaFrance polycount sponsor
    Great update, the head is looking great. Pablo is right about the arms and elbow region, and I think its caused by a number of factors. Take a look at this piece from Del Walker's portfolio:

    dw_anatomyadam_02.jpg
    drawingyourdreams.com

    It seems like your upper arm is too short, and overall too skinny. Generally the joint is just somewhat above the navel, and you can see much more of the triceps from the front view.

    I think your torso is too short and rib-cage too narrow, causing some problems in the armpit region.

    And finally, your upper legs are too short in relation to the lower legs.

    From the great Glen Vilppu, here's another reference I like to use for general anatomical proportions:

    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS-Ji41TAaevVnIUxRyQ04CFMjxHIBGRLHdPccP283TplsXCfYH
  • Brandon.LaFrance
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    Brandon.LaFrance polycount sponsor
    I hope this makes sense. Cyan lines are the 7.5 head ideal, magenta lines are where your landmarks actually fall.

    ENBF5Gk.jpg

    Edit: I'm sorry, that was confusing as hell, each cyan line corresponds to a magenta line on the OPPOSITE side of the center line. Just look at this reference from Scott Eaton:

    week1_tn.jpg
  • olivierth
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    olivierth polycounter lvl 9
    Thanks pablohurtado, I fixed that.

    Thank you
    Brandon.LaFrance, I guess looking at the character for too long made me forget the important things like proportions! I did some corrections and used my Anatomy figure from the Grnomon workshop as a guide so it should be OK now.


    Ouf! I was trying to do the most today so I could add to my job application. Time for bed.


    OlivierTheriault_CoolMan_zps25247a43.jpg~original
  • Shiniku
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    Shiniku polycounter lvl 14
    I would make his chest bigger honestly. His torso is looking a bit feminine and out of proportion to his legs, it's not quite matching the ref yet.

    The guy is a fashion designer if I'm not mistaken, so I wouldn't stray too far from the design of his clothing. It's missing a few fine details, after which, I think it will look very impressive. great work so far.
  • olivierth
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    olivierth polycounter lvl 9
    I took reference from my anatomy figure and almost traced it to get the same silhouette. Not every character needs to look like Mr. Universe.

    "The guy is a fashion designer" I don't understand who you're talking about. The character I'm making?



    I started making a gun with dynamesh for my character. Almost done.

    Cool_Man_55_Comp_zps96da9e5d.jpg~original
  • Shiniku
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    Shiniku polycounter lvl 14
    olivierth wrote: »
    I took reference from my anatomy figure and almost traced it to get the same silhouette. Not every character needs to look like Mr. Universe.
    Yes, of course, but settle down there captain defensive. I was comparing your model to your reference, not to some mr. universe show. I don't think you need to bulk up your character at all, I just think the proportions are off, and it's giving him an odd silhouette. If you made his legs skinnier I think it would help. It's only a very subtle thing, I think it's looking great honestly.
    "The guy is a fashion designer" I don't understand who you're talking about. The character I'm making?
    The reference image you're using is a pretty recognizable image of fashion designer Kevin Stewart. I can tell you're trying to change him up a bit (this is especially evidenced by the gun you're gonna give him...) but when it's an image so many people will recognize I don't know if it's that good of an idea. Or maybe not as many people will recognize this as I think.
  • MM
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    MM polycounter lvl 18
    i think the upper torso is fine. what looks really off are the lower legs and feet.
    they look too bulky for his body type and very inconsistent in general anatomy.
    the feet/shoes could also look better if they were slightly smaller

    only way to show is a paintover:

    2s6sms4.gif

    also, the cloth sculpting needs to be brought up to par with the cloth simulation.
    for example, the rolled up sleeves don't really look like rolled up cloth at the moment. also some memory folds behind the knee would make more sense than the long vertical simulated folds being created there right now. unless the character is suppose to always stand upright, those simulated folds wont work.

    take a look here to understand what i am talking about in regards to memory folds behind the knees.

    http://www.mightyartdemos.com/mightyartdemos-bradley.html

    scroll down and look at "memory zigzag folds"
  • olivierth
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    olivierth polycounter lvl 9
    You're right about the cloth. I still have some work to do there. For the anatomy comment I have to admit I don't agree. In your paintover, to me, it feels like the legs are way too skinny to fit with the upper body. Plus, I used my anatomy figure as a ref.

    http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/img/products/figure_03_main.jpg



    I worked some more on the KSG shotgun. It's the first time I've used Dynamesh and I'm sure it's not the last!

    I still need to add a few elements on it.

    Cool_Man_62_comp_zpsd2da5949.jpg~original
  • MM
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    MM polycounter lvl 18
    the anatomytools figure is good in general but not perfect. it has some wierd proportional issues. their latest figure is a little better than than the one you are referencing. http://www.anatomytools.com/prmfv2-1-6scale-p515.php
    note the volume of knees and feet. even in main photo reference you can see that the knees are not that bulky.

    the knees on your model are just too bulky for a man of that height/build.

    here is a photo reference from different angles that would help:

    (nudity warning) http://www.posespace.com/posetool/showcontact.aspx?sku=edison023
  • Evil raz
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    Evil raz polycounter lvl 10
    How did you work on the beard?
  • olivierth
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    olivierth polycounter lvl 9
    MM - Actually, both the one I'm using and the example you showed me are right. They're simply two different body types. One is not better than the other. Also, who are you to say that the reference I'm using (also done by the master of anatomy Andrew Cawrse) has weird proportions? I'm not saying it's perfect, just that we are certainly not in a position to criticize the work of such an experienced artist. I'm also not saying that the anatomy of my character is perfect but that the proportions you are criticizing me on are not bad. What I'm hearing is more about preference over body type rather than corrections about anatomy problems. Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful you took some of your own time to help me out as you've done in the past but since it is my own project, I'd like to decide what body type I use.

    Evil raz - The beard was done in 3dsmax with Hair&Fur. The render was done in Vray with the VrayHairMtl. I used low res version of the head to grow the hair on and used a density map to set where the beard grows. I used a lot of kink and hair segment.
  • olivierth
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    olivierth polycounter lvl 9
    I forgot to post the result of the gun. I ended up pushing this gun way to much. After all, the purpose is for normal map baking...


    You can see more high res images at my website: www.oliviercg.com

    Cool_Man_78_Small_zps4840f680.jpg~original
  • arcitecht
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    arcitecht polycounter lvl 6
    What are you rendering the shots of the coolguy in?
  • olivierth
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    olivierth polycounter lvl 9
    I'm using 3dsmax/VRay with the hdr "Overcast Breezeway, Soda Hall" from this website throught a VrayLight.
  • KartoonHead
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    KartoonHead polycounter lvl 4
    you made this...
    olivierth wrote: »
    Cool_Man_78_Small_zps4840f680.jpg~original

    in ZBRUSH?! My jaw just punched a hole through the floor.
  • Shrike
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    Shrike interpolator
    yea, fuck its amazing

    Procedural Materials on High Poly or a real uv + texture ? Did you use SSS for the plastic ? Which DOF are you using there ? It is really strange
  • Arod529
    That Shotty is stunning.
  • olivierth
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    olivierth polycounter lvl 9
    thanks KartoonHead! Make sure you check-in at the hospital. You're jaw isn't supposed to fall off. :poly124: Zbrush was used for its dynamesh operations. The render/textures were done with Vray/dDo and the boolean object were imported from 3dsmax into Zbrush for dynamesh.

    Thanks Shrike! Once I was done with the dynamesh in zbrush at a high polycount (I ofter used 2048 to generate the dynamesh per subtool) I made a copy of each subtools and redynamesh with a much lower resolution (around 256). That gave me meshes I could UV and project onto the highres dynameshed versions. There's no SSS. The plastic parts have a IOR of 1.6 and the metals 4.0 (I think). And I just plugged in the dDo maps. I used a Vray physical camera with the settings below.

    Thank you Arod529! I'll be making a low res for it soon.


    Here are the settings for the camera. Also, an image of what I created in 3dsmax to create the iron sight attachement at the top. It was the most complicated object to create. The process made it simple. I would make 2 or 3 objects in 3dsmax at a time with simple primitive or splines/extrude/shell to create more complex one and export to zbrush.

    I took the same approach in the "Radio" tutorial

    http://pixologic.com/zclassroom/homeroom/lesson/military-assets-with-joseph-drust/

    The difference was in the dynamesh settings. I used "Project" and a "Smooth" of 0. After I was done with the subtool, I did a small Polish.


    KSG_Settings_zpsd76aca99.jpg~original
  • ysalex
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    ysalex interpolator
    I agree with MM, and I think your dismissal of his critique is pretty strange. His point about the bulk of the knee vs. the leanness of the rest of the body is spot-on, and fairly obvious. This might be a personal project, and yes, you are free to choose the body type you'd like, but if you want that body to be believable, it has to be built within proportional bounds.

    Given MM's history of work vs yours, you could stand to learn a lot from him (we all could), particularly in the area of character design, which given your female knight seems to be an area of struggle for you, vs. an area of strength for him. It's also clear looking through your portfolio that your anatomy is okay, but not particularly strong, and it might be frustrating for you that MM's keen eye brings some of these issues to light, but that's not his fault, he's just being a good critiquer.

    Don't mean this to be offensive, just an observation. Good luck.

    That gun is looking awesome, and I'm impressed you built it in zbrush.
  • olivierth
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    olivierth polycounter lvl 9
    First off, I did not "dismiss" his critiques. I fully listened to what he was saying and objectively looked back at my mesh and what I meant. The body type he's proposing is fine, but I prefer the one I was going for.

    I don't like comparisons between artists. Frankly, I don't think it has it's place in a CGforum. This being said, I more than based my character's body type on an anatomy figure that I meticulously photographed so I could almost trace it. An anatomy figure done by Andrew freakin' Cawrse, master of anatomy modeling, let alone proportions. If he did make a mistake in the proportions of the model I bought, so can I make mistakes, and you, and MM, and just about anybody else. I'm sincerely not trying to offend anybody, just to make a point.

    Choosing one body type or another, both done by Andrew Cawrse, is only a matter of personal preferences. I'm not gonna change body type because some prefer it over some other types. Just thing about If I would change to the body type proposed by MM, and later, some other artist tells me I should use another body type also done by Andrew Cawrse backed by the exact same arguments you guys previously used. What makes him right to say the body type you and MM chose for me was wrong?
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir ngon master
    i think you chose the wrong body type because it doesn't match the initial reference. and the one you've made looks extremely weird... the most dainty torso i've ever seen on a man, with thick ol' legs and ridiculous lats. not to mention how scary the arms look. i've literally NEVER seen someone with biceps and triceps that look like those.
  • Envart
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    Envart polycounter lvl 6
    That shotgun render is awesome.
  • ysalex
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    ysalex interpolator
    I'm not comparing your art to his, I'm comparing your ability to his.

    MM wasn't proposing a different body type, he was suggesting that you should make yours consistent and proportionally coherent throughout, since it would be extremely strange to see a person that thin with legs like that, and arms, and other parts.

    And as pointed out now several time, your anatomy is wrong in place. It's not that you chose a bad reference, like you keep going on about, that's a great reference you chose, it's that your eye for anatomy is not the best, so you interpret the anatomy wrong, and it ends up wrong on your model. Just because Andrew is a master and you based your work on his, does not make you a master.

    It's plain to see that you have some strange anatomy there, particularly like Gir said in the arms, the torso, and the legs.

    This is not just a problem with this model, but ALL of the models in your portfolio, and generally in the same places with each. Arms, legs, torso, and for some reason your butts are very very strange.

    _______________

    It's not bad to make mistakes, its bad to be blind to them, and to argue about it to protect your ego. That's what I think is strange about the way you dismissed MM and others.
  • olivierth
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    olivierth polycounter lvl 9
    "This is not just a problem with this model, but ALL of the models in your portfolio"

    That's enough. If you wanted to deeply hurt me, you did a great job. And I'm not in a sarcastic mood so believe me when I say that I was sincere when I said that.
  • ysalex
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    ysalex interpolator
    Dude, pull it together, critiques aren't meant to hurt, thats the point of the whole last couple of posts. You are taking peoples critiques as a personal affront to your ability, so you end up defending yourself from critiques or dismissing them instead of learning from them.
  • EvanL
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    EvanL polycounter lvl 11
    I think saying that it's a body type preference, is such a slippery slippery slope. A 6 year old could make a sculpt in zBrush and say oh it's a body type preference. NOT saying it's the same as your case, just wanted to point out how easy it is to say something like that and be completely oblivious to the fact that it's wrong.

    As an artist, I wouldn't recommend saying things like that or even thinking them. Be able to and humble enough to recognize when critique is coming from a credible source. If you're going to dismiss such critique, make sure you do due diligence before doing so.

    Not a character artist but I like MM's paintover better. Perhaps because he slightly enlarged the penis bulge.
  • garriola83
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    garriola83 greentooth
    From personal experience and my ample fitness knowledge, a man doesn't get dem teardrops and bulk on the legs unless he squats heavy or deadlifts. Now, when you incorporate both those exercises in, the whole body transforms, not just the legs but the WHOLE body gets bigger since squats and deadlifts affect the whole Central Nervous System into a state of shock while gaining mass. Those are mass building exercises not just for the legs but for the whole body.
    Your guy doesn't look like he squats or deadlift or legpress or any exercise that would make his legs look like that, because I'm looking at the rest of the body and it just doens't make sense, especially with heavy teardrops, which should slope inward more. If he has bulky legs, the rest of his body would also transform. Quite frankly you have way too much tapering at the joints in the arms (brachii radialis and the flexors look way too curved inward) and his ankles too.
    MM's critique is spot on. Now you can choose to ignore it, which is cool too, artistic license right? But it would actually make your model's mass look better and the how the cloth drapes over much better if your anatomy is solid. Just something to think about. Peace!
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