So, interesting note: Valdis story, 2 scroller, did most of it's animations in 3d, then took those renderings to a 2d art format for the final coloring. I think if you look at the dev-blog they have some info, could message kyrus about it.
As an addendum, Arcsys' jobs page features some behind-the looks at both Xrd and Blazblue models. Nothing surprising or instructive there (unless you aren't familiar with the specific 3d-to-sprites practice of using garish materials for easier palettization), but still cool to look at: http://www.arcsystemworks.jp/official/company/3djob/index_3djob.html
doesnt look full 3d to me ... , especially Faust animation
id change my mind if you can name the most advance disney 3d motion picture that can have that extreme deformation
the only time they use full ingame 3d probably in close up cutscenes ( which is pretty much obvious from the first time I see the trailer) and of course the background with some front project/priority textures
not the main gameplay ( except for vector tracing)
which is a good thing for me, because its quite pointless if they make everything in full 3d for this kind of style
What's with the odd attitude of "this can't be 3D, I won't accept it being 3D" when you have to understand how illogical it would be to make the characters in 3D and then not use them for everything. The game runs on Unreal Engine 3, all the characters are modeled and animated in 3D, there is no 2D involved with the characters.
The developers of this are just that good at what they do.
Hah exactly, i like how we still have people denying it when the proof is right on their webpage. the best part is they even have that shading running in the XSi viewport, so it can't be reliant on fancy postpro or custom technology, just shaders and textures. Impressive!
which is a good thing for me, because its quite pointless if they make everything in full 3d for this kind of style
In the long run it would actually save a lot of development time making them full 3d.
Also, I have a power point they did detailing how they made the game in 3d and matched the 2d gameplay. So yes, it's in 3d. Perhaps not all of it like hair and shadows, but the characters are 3d.
I'm awaiting to see if they do a power point over how they're rendering everything.
doesnt look full 3d to me ... , especially Faust animation
id change my mind if you can name the most advance disney 3d motion picture that can have that extreme deformation
I didn't have time to watch more than a few minutes, but Faust wasn't doing anything that seems to hard to pull off. I see more extreme bounce & stretch animation at my studio and we probably have a stricter bone limit. Just because most games choose to be restrained with their animation doesn't mean it isn't possible.
doesnt look full 3d to me ... , especially Faust animation
id change my mind if you can name the most advance disney 3d motion picture that can have that extreme deformation
Disney seem pretty conservative to me when it comes to animation - you're better looking at shorts or other studios (Kaeloo, Cloudy, Salesman Pete, Shave It) for examples of more extreme 3d animation - what I've seen of GG doesn't look all that pushed compared to what's out there, especially with some nice noodle controls and point animation/sculpt correction deformers. The style they've used probably makes it even easier to push the poses...?
Yes, they also force a low framerate in the game to help with gameplay. That furthers the illusion that it is 3D.
I'm hoping to see some breakdowns of their rendering. The power point I have is more about gameplay and animation and only shows a couple wireframe and editor shots of the 3d characters.
I believe that I read somewhere that some asymmetrical details on characters flip over when you change sides on the screen, to emulate how the sprite were flipped too(note mole's on I-No face).
Basically the key to understanding the approach is to remember their workflow on Blazblue: all the sprites were based on prerendered 3D that were already extremely close to the final result. What they have done is they have switched prerendred for real-time and not really changed anything else.
That is to say, the characters aren't rendered to the screen but to texture buffers that are then used as sprites. And they really did it like they would with the prerenders: the lighting and vanishing point are local to the "sprite", not to the screen (ie the same pose at the left or right of the screen is a pixel perfect replica, no perspective change), and they flip them like they would sprites (ie full symmetry with one notable exception, the texts which stick to the readable direction), and then they layer them like they would in a 2D game (which prevents things like interpenetrating knees that you see in SF4 for example). Even if it weren't for the choppy animation this would contribute to the illusion of using actual sprites. It's a logical trick given their old workflow but an unusual and clever one.
For cutscenes, cinematic attacks and end-of-round swirling camera moments they switch to classical 3D rendering (you can see the difference because those do tend to have interpenetrating limbs) so everything is still designed with 3D in mind, though some elements like Bedman's deja vu markers are screen-facing billboards but that's because those are ment to be screen-facing.
The models themselves are nothing special technically, ie just polygon hulls for the outlines and basic cel shading using color ramps (not even distance fields for the textures as I first thought, they blur when zoomed enough). They do use a lot of switchable parts for their exaggerated cartoon effects (May's faces and flailing arms, Zato's shadows or Milia's hair for example).
(And stupid as I am, I was standing right in front of a cabinet running the game just a few weeks ago, watched the intro, was about to play some rounds to try and understand the graphics of it a bit more ... but then I forgot and left without trying it out ! :poly127:)
Looking at that shot, I'm guessing the fingernails are painted into the texture. There doesn't appear to be any variation between them even though they're in different positions and at different angles.
I won't get around to translating the entire 8 pages, but basically these are the textures used for a character. The B&W one is line work. The other pages go into more detail on decals, dealing with spec/lines and other functions.
Preview:
First two sentences quick translation: For one character there are three textures, base texture (A), SSS (B) and ILM (D). By the base texture's bright portion's color designation, and the monochrome coating/cover resolution is 1024x1024.
No problem, a lot of people here in Japan were interested in this as well, so that is why it is in this issue. So I am sure it will be in the year end 3DW book as well with more detail.
I will get more translated. Some parts are hard because I can't recognize the kanji at that font size.
"They didn't use cloth simulation for character animation. It was all by hand."
"Main character has 460 bones. The rig can change a arm length, leg length, maximum 600 bones for one character."
"They used just step animation. They don't use interpolate for animation."
"They used XSI. I think they use emPolygonizer for smoke object and ICE particle."
"They used just step animation. They don't use interpolate for animation."
Hell yeah ! It looks so much more 2D-like when done like that, it's a very subtle effect but certainly noticeable. I think the human characters in Tron Uprising were animated this way :
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb3-FsWhYGQ"]TRON- Uprising - Official Trailer #2 - Disney XD (2012) - YouTube[/ame]
Also I noticed that animation of the mechs in the recent Zoid series is tackled similarly too (I guess this is probably a rather widespread and accepted technique in Japanese animation studios now ...)
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DY0jGhfpnM"]Zoids New Century Zero Episode 1 - Commence Battle: Attack Liger Zero! - YouTube[/ame]
It really is fascinating that the eye (or more like, the brain !) can tell the difference even if it seems like such a small detail. It's night and day compared to the early Macross CG which didn't fit the rest of the show at all, or the rubbery feel of other 2d fighters rendered in 3d like Street Fighter 4.
"They didn't use cloth simulation for character animation. It was all by hand."
"Main character has 460 bones. The rig can change a arm length, leg length, maximum 600 bones for one character."
"They used just step animation. They don't use interpolate for animation."
"They used XSI. I think they use emPolygonizer for smoke object and ICE particle."
weeee, say thanks to Tatsuo , - Arif
so pretty much as I expected, they replace the object in sequence based, now everything make sense, Faust's insane deformation etc,
Replies
Ending cutscene looks great.
[ame="
As an addendum, Arcsys' jobs page features some behind-the looks at both Xrd and Blazblue models. Nothing surprising or instructive there (unless you aren't familiar with the specific 3d-to-sprites practice of using garish materials for easier palettization), but still cool to look at: http://www.arcsystemworks.jp/official/company/3djob/index_3djob.html
id change my mind if you can name the most advance disney 3d motion picture that can have that extreme deformation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh1mEJtkRQI
the only time they use full ingame 3d probably in close up cutscenes ( which is pretty much obvious from the first time I see the trailer) and of course the background with some front project/priority textures
not the main gameplay ( except for vector tracing)
which is a good thing for me, because its quite pointless if they make everything in full 3d for this kind of style
The developers of this are just that good at what they do.
In the long run it would actually save a lot of development time making them full 3d.
Also, I have a power point they did detailing how they made the game in 3d and matched the 2d gameplay. So yes, it's in 3d. Perhaps not all of it like hair and shadows, but the characters are 3d.
I'm awaiting to see if they do a power point over how they're rendering everything.
I didn't have time to watch more than a few minutes, but Faust wasn't doing anything that seems to hard to pull off. I see more extreme bounce & stretch animation at my studio and we probably have a stricter bone limit. Just because most games choose to be restrained with their animation doesn't mean it isn't possible.
Disney seem pretty conservative to me when it comes to animation - you're better looking at shorts or other studios (Kaeloo, Cloudy, Salesman Pete, Shave It) for examples of more extreme 3d animation - what I've seen of GG doesn't look all that pushed compared to what's out there, especially with some nice noodle controls and point animation/sculpt correction deformers. The style they've used probably makes it even easier to push the poses...?
also well my bad for saying "tracing" ...
but still lots of 2d element being used.
@justin, im curious the one that he twisted his body
the other time I just thinking either replace the asset or replace with sprite
extreme MB during fight scene
question : do they use different asset for that?
The only instances where I can believe they used 2d was in the shader to force certain shadows to look a certain way.
The power point I have has wireframes for a couple shots.
and yeah of course for now most SD youtube footage is so painful to watch, gotta need to try it myself
I'm hoping to see some breakdowns of their rendering. The power point I have is more about gameplay and animation and only shows a couple wireframe and editor shots of the 3d characters.
I'll ask though because it is about 5 months old now. Maybe it's hit the internet by now.
finally found very high res pic.
yea first I thought that they do sprites/2d fx texture in 2d orthogonal in mind, apparently they do 2d sprites with perspective in mind.
it seems like what so convenient with flat/cel shading is, any seams can be hidden .
Those are 3d models.
*edit* Unless you're talking about the backgrounds.
doh, sorry for bad 3d term,
correcting myself: 2d texture
( of course some of the fx is 100% 3d)
this is mix in between
the characters do use flat colors for their textures.
That is to say, the characters aren't rendered to the screen but to texture buffers that are then used as sprites. And they really did it like they would with the prerenders: the lighting and vanishing point are local to the "sprite", not to the screen (ie the same pose at the left or right of the screen is a pixel perfect replica, no perspective change), and they flip them like they would sprites (ie full symmetry with one notable exception, the texts which stick to the readable direction), and then they layer them like they would in a 2D game (which prevents things like interpenetrating knees that you see in SF4 for example). Even if it weren't for the choppy animation this would contribute to the illusion of using actual sprites. It's a logical trick given their old workflow but an unusual and clever one.
For cutscenes, cinematic attacks and end-of-round swirling camera moments they switch to classical 3D rendering (you can see the difference because those do tend to have interpenetrating limbs) so everything is still designed with 3D in mind, though some elements like Bedman's deja vu markers are screen-facing billboards but that's because those are ment to be screen-facing.
The models themselves are nothing special technically, ie just polygon hulls for the outlines and basic cel shading using color ramps (not even distance fields for the textures as I first thought, they blur when zoomed enough). They do use a lot of switchable parts for their exaggerated cartoon effects (May's faces and flailing arms, Zato's shadows or Milia's hair for example).
You will be surprised.
I`ll share some information when I get mine. I am sure this years CGWorld book will go over it in more depth.
Loving the fine detailing going on here :
http://www.gamespek.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/1386294916-2.jpg
I still wonder how they manage to control the ink so well ... the fingernails are just perfect !
(And stupid as I am, I was standing right in front of a cabinet running the game just a few weeks ago, watched the intro, was about to play some rounds to try and understand the graphics of it a bit more ... but then I forgot and left without trying it out ! :poly127:)
I want more on this magazine as well, month/issue, sites which I can import would be nice as well, etc.
I won't get around to translating the entire 8 pages, but basically these are the textures used for a character. The B&W one is line work. The other pages go into more detail on decals, dealing with spec/lines and other functions.
Preview:
First two sentences quick translation: For one character there are three textures, base texture (A), SSS (B) and ILM (D). By the base texture's bright portion's color designation, and the monochrome coating/cover resolution is 1024x1024.
I feel that this bit sums up their overall approach pretty well :
Again, thank you a milion times for the upload. Can't wait to learn more !
there absolutely is
please do!!
You would have the gratitude of a whole lotta devs...that would be awesome!
So are they using some kind of camera based z-depth calculation on that shadow line map to determine where to draw the lines and where not to?
*eagerly awaiting translation*
I will get more translated. Some parts are hard because I can't recognize the kanji at that font size.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10717062/guilty%20gear2_texture_CGW2.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10717062/guilty%20gear2_smoke.pdf
He also went over this page here:
http://www.arcsystemworks.jp/official/company/3djob/index_3djob.html
(each picture is clickable) and gave some info:
"They didn't use cloth simulation for character animation. It was all by hand."
"Main character has 460 bones. The rig can change a arm length, leg length, maximum 600 bones for one character."
"They used just step animation. They don't use interpolate for animation."
"They used XSI. I think they use emPolygonizer for smoke object and ICE particle."
lol
This is an art forum, you bet there is interest. It would be greatly appreciated if you could take the time.
Also thank you fonta and Tatsuo Asai.
Hell yeah ! It looks so much more 2D-like when done like that, it's a very subtle effect but certainly noticeable. I think the human characters in Tron Uprising were animated this way :
[ame="
Also I noticed that animation of the mechs in the recent Zoid series is tackled similarly too (I guess this is probably a rather widespread and accepted technique in Japanese animation studios now ...)
[ame="
It really is fascinating that the eye (or more like, the brain !) can tell the difference even if it seems like such a small detail. It's night and day compared to the early Macross CG which didn't fit the rest of the show at all, or the rubbery feel of other 2d fighters rendered in 3d like Street Fighter 4.
Awesome stuff
weeee, say thanks to Tatsuo , - Arif
so pretty much as I expected, they replace the object in sequence based, now everything make sense, Faust's insane deformation etc,