Feedback: the Escape, contests/challenges
polycounter lvl 20
Hey everyone,
Now that the Escape has ended after 10+ weeks of being an active challenge (contest) on Polycount, we thought we'd ask for feedback. We're not specifically looking for you guys to answer these questions, but we wanted to ask them to get you in the right state of mind for the type of feedback we're looking for.
So, good or bad, we'd love to hear what you think about a contest like the Escape where its an open theme, loose rules, and you have a lot of time to commit. Did you like that? Did it make you NOT want to enter?
What about the future? Would you like to see more contests like this from us? To us making these larger (epic) contests more open ended for themes and less strict on rules makes it a community vent that is all about creating sexy, creative works of game art. How do you feel about them?
What about smaller contests for specific skill sets?
An animation-only challenge? Or a special effects contest?
We can't guarantee prizes of the same caliber as the Escape but there is nothing stopping us from having these. In fact, old man Polycount (rogue13), is demanding our next challenge be for something a bit more niche like animation or FX (or both!).
What about the alternative types of contests we've had that are to the tune of the TF2 Polycount Pack, the Darksiders 2 Weapon Contest, and most recently the Dota 2 Polycount Contest? Would you guys like to see more of these? Do you not like to enter in them? If not, how come? If so, why?
TL;DR:
How do you feel about....
Now that the Escape has ended after 10+ weeks of being an active challenge (contest) on Polycount, we thought we'd ask for feedback. We're not specifically looking for you guys to answer these questions, but we wanted to ask them to get you in the right state of mind for the type of feedback we're looking for.
So, good or bad, we'd love to hear what you think about a contest like the Escape where its an open theme, loose rules, and you have a lot of time to commit. Did you like that? Did it make you NOT want to enter?
What about the future? Would you like to see more contests like this from us? To us making these larger (epic) contests more open ended for themes and less strict on rules makes it a community vent that is all about creating sexy, creative works of game art. How do you feel about them?
What about smaller contests for specific skill sets?
An animation-only challenge? Or a special effects contest?
We can't guarantee prizes of the same caliber as the Escape but there is nothing stopping us from having these. In fact, old man Polycount (rogue13), is demanding our next challenge be for something a bit more niche like animation or FX (or both!).
What about the alternative types of contests we've had that are to the tune of the TF2 Polycount Pack, the Darksiders 2 Weapon Contest, and most recently the Dota 2 Polycount Contest? Would you guys like to see more of these? Do you not like to enter in them? If not, how come? If so, why?
TL;DR:
How do you feel about....
- ...large, open-themed, loosely ruled contests like the Escape?
- ...smaller, more specific challenges like special effects or animation only?
- ...contests where part of the prize is having your content put in to a game? And what if those items can earn some revenue for you?
- ...the voting process (we're using a new solution for the Escape, which we'll talk about once its ready). But if you have thoughts on how voting could work, feel free.
- ...prizes? Do you have thoughts on prizes for contests like this?
Replies
1. Super cool to have these a few times a year. Escape was by far the best idea of the bunch in the past few years. Have a team of FX, Chars, Enviro, etc. Great turn out too.
2. Neat to have these. Maybe on a monthly or some sort of schedule? Char month, Enviro month, Anim month, FX month. That would let people plan and know like in a few weeks there will be a contest to get into. I know I would enter into a prop/enviro one every few months as opposed to a larger scale contest (at least at the moment).
3. Community based is awesome. Not sold on the 8 people judging everyone. Unless it's a balanced panel with Artists from mobile, MMO, AAA console dev, etc then I suppose. Community based just seems like the best entry will rise to the top (at least it seems to have in the past).
4. If it's pros winning these contests than reviews or something by a team probably aren't very impressive. I like the spherical PC metal prints that R13 gets done. Those are way cool.
Thanks a lot for running it, it was really fun to do!
I believe that this venue creates really unique and original art and the creativity really soars. Now that we have seen that this works, we absolutely should keep it in the fold- but there are issues that I think come naturally with this sort of contest. Problems that only complimenting with small scale challenges would fix, to balance out.
I know I don't only speak for myself when I say that I look forward to challenges such as "Brawl" to help guide me as far as concepts and ideas go. Those types of challenges filter out all of the noise in my head, so to speak. It helps guide my creativity and helps it not get lost in the sea of my brain, as can happen when deciding what my next project will be. As an environment artist, I love having a challenge that guides me, or at least one that guides me more than ESCAPE did. Having those smaller scale challenges feels more focused. Smaller scale challenges also feel more like it's more about making something that is "pretty" and less about just the creativity aspect. With the open-ended challenge, originality and theme often took main focus, or at least took time away that we could have been making something pretty.
When I was at Full Sail, one of the most popular classes for Game Art was Level Design and Assembly (aka LVL). In this class our objective was to build a modular first person shooter arena type of environment. You would have one month to fully realize it's entire creation, however, what made it so popular was the course director chose to give the class a new theme every month (as well as a sub-theme). When I went through, it was Sci-Fi with the sub-theme being Organics. This was arguably the toughest class in the entire program and also open-ended, but because of the theme and sub-theme, people got the work done, sometimes with stunning results.
That is not to say that Escape did not having theme or focus at all- it did, it was all about the idea of the word ESCAPE. However, in the end, I felt that this was too open, and even too opened for this sort of project. I loved seeing the end result, with all these different types of styles and designs, however, I do feel the lack of better focus hurt the projects more than they helped them.
As far as voting goes, I don't really have any feedback for I know that it can be tough on an online forum. I trust that this new method will be awesome. As far as prizes go, they are a great motivator, but personally, I do it for the love of the art. I never go into it thinking that I really want the prize- because my prize is having another piece to put on my folio. Anything I get after that is just icing on the cake.
Lastly, having contest where your creating can be put into a game and revenue be earned is a great idea. Its good for the artist as well as the game. In that case, everyone wins. However, those should be the really small scale types of contests that are extremely focused. I'd imagine those would be the ones with specific concept art and strict-ish guidelines.
tl;dr
1 Open ended was proved to work and be awesome, we should keep them.
2 Small scale projects are more focused and a lot of people like that better. Lets keep those too.
3 Open ended could stand to be a little more focused and still be considered open ended.
4 I trust you guys on voting.
5 Prizes are great- but I do it for the art and the love (and the folio)
6 Getting put into a game is great and motivating. but those should be really small scaled.
edit: BTW, props to PC for actually holding a submission date unlike every other fraudulent contest.
I have always hated the types of contests that get really specific "people from polycount can only make undead necromancers and their color pallet is limited to black 0,0,0 and green 255 but no combination".
I imagine it gets tough to judge but that isn't really a headache for the contestants, they just have to deal with the aftermath of whatever the judges decide. Community vote seems open to manipulation but seems like the most democratic way to come to a final result.
Honestly no one should really be entering because there are phat prizes, those are more of a pat on the back for the winners. The people who do enter because of the prizes never win and the winners never care about the prizes, they are nice but its not why they pushed themselves.
There can be negative consequences to a community if it has too many King 3D Hill contests in a row.
I don't think anyone should be basing their self worth on how well they do in the contest but I'm sure a lot of people do. Constantly reminding the majority of the community that they have a long way to go, instead of celebrating how far they've come, can lead to disengagement. So timing is everything, too many too soon and after a while you have a handful people crowning themselves king every other weekend.
Encouraging people to break down what they did and share knowledge can be insanely helpful and can really help people build a reputation for their work, even if they didn't win they might have done something cool that spreads around gets their name and work out there.
The last Polycount competition I competed in was Darksiders 2 but I should have competed in the Dota 2 one as well. I think both of those were really well handled and fun. Brawl was also really excellent to watch unfold. I'd like more of those.
Having the winning entries go into a game is really the coolest possible prize. Anything else is just gravy.
I liked the open theme idea a lot. I think the community took it in so many different directions, and the results speak volumes of what giving people a little creative freedom with a main over arching theme can result in. I also liked the loose rules, but I found I actually lost steam half way through the alotted time, and didn't pick it back up again until 4 days before the final deadline! The pressure from a shorter deadline keeps me focused. Too much time and I found I didn't utilize it effectively.
I think having annual/bi-annual contests during the same time of year is a great idea. I like being able to clear my schedule ahead of time, and the anticipation is always exciting.
Smaller contests for specific skill sets would be fine too. But I find I'd be less likely to participate in comparison to the grand events.
Prizes don't honestly matter, I entered for the challenge, learning experience, and the goal of focusing my efforts for something I can use in my portfolio. However I would say that when I saw Adam's tweet about this a few days before the comp deadline:
It renewed my drive and I pushed really hard to get it 'done'. Earning one of these is a personal goal of mine. That Greentooth is the only time I'd say I would enter a comp for a prize.
Thats my $0.02. Thanks again guys, and great job everyone!
2. Perhaps have it as a separate category, with its own prizes, Best use of FX, best use of Animation or something? I dont think the animation/FX community is that large on polycount (i may be wrong though.)
3. Always cool and neat to see and participate in
4. I like the idea behind community voting for a "Users choice award" and judges picking their favourite based on some pre-explained criteria.
5. Eh, depends on the competition, depending on the prize it can be a great incentive, however I dont think the community cares too much about it, I think a banner of their artwork and a blogpost interview to get their name out there would be enough to get anyone excited. Obviously the grander the prize, the more incentive people have to participate.
More contests is always nice!
2. Well, it would be better if there were changes based around making a specific sorrt of fellow.
3.That would be a heavy motivator
4. Perhaps the category of Intrigue, creativy, craftmanship, and technical stats should play a part
5. How about an all expenses payed trip to a convention or something of that nature or being featured in a game title?
Perhaps there could be occasional small challenges that focus on individual disciplines, so they're not designed to try and include everyone all at once like escape did? So 3 week hard surface challenge, pixel art challenge, best retexture, best tutorial, whatever. Or what about more 'official' versions of the art jam / monthly noob challenges? (or would that ruin the art jam?) Winners get their work in the polycount banner. The art jam is quite cool because it's open to all disciplines and gives you a theme to work with, but everyone doesn't work on the exact same asset.
worldofleveldesign.com have some interesting challenges, for example there was one where you were given a package of modular assets and given time to make the best level you could out of them. That way judging was more from a gameplay perspective than an art one.
2. I think having smaller challenges for specific disciplines could be fun, would definitely give FX and animators a chance to shine. But I've enjoyed all the contests between Mutant League, Brawl, Darksiders and Dota2
3. That's probably the best prize I could think of. Getting an item in Darksiders 2 or Dota2 would have been AWESOME, much better than just a cash prize.
4. This is a tricky question because it can very easily turn into a popularity contest. But I have faith in this community to pick the deserving winner.
5. Greentooth ball or art in a game, possibly a banner spot or some way of getting your name out there. I don't care too much about cash prizes for this sort of thing, sure its great but its not my biggest motivator. Thats part of the reason I don't participate in the Mixamo contests because all they offer is money
As for the challenge;
- I do not feel that this contest was too large or too open ended. The theme of ESCAPE was not too vague and the information provided was plenty for us to come up with an idea and execute upon said idea. More often than not in a studio you're not always provided with clear and direct instruction on what to do, so this is something that you learn to adapt to and pull things together to provide a clear and timely path of execution and develop an idea/solution to fit the needs of your assignment. We began with a simple Google hangout meeting after discussing briefly ideas during a weekday lunch. Everyone was able to chime in with their thoughts and by the time we left that hangout we had a good idea of what we wanted to make and our biggest goal was that of conveying the theme of an escape. The length of duration for the contest was a good amount of time and we did spend a lot of our time in the evenings and often into early am working towards our goal along with weekends, but believe it was worth it to put together a result that we could be proud of hopefully look unique enough and play to our own interests and in a visual style that would hopefully prove appealing to others. It was not always ideal, the amount of time needed, by all involved due to not realizing the full amount of effort it would take, but we prevailed. I think this was in part to really enjoying working together and making art that was of our own design.
- Smaller contests would be appreciated as well. I do remember back in the day when the halloween character contest happened and there were a lot of people working on characters and having a blast for no real reason other than to make cool art.
- Voting is always tricky and I'm really not sure as to what the best answer to that is. I think in the end if you're only in it to win, then you're doing yourself a disservice. Personally and I think I can safely say this for my team, that it was more about working together, making a great portfolio piece and just doing what it is we do for something that we created as a team.
- Prizes are nice, but not really something I am focused on. I would be pretty happy about earning one of those stainless steel greentooths though. That would be pretty awesome and mean more to me I think than other prizes. It's like a medal of honor.
In the end, I hope there are more of these contests, especially where it is a team exercise. We do work in teams in the studio and what better way for veterans to learn from things like this and how to work better and more efficient in a team and maybe find some things they can apply to their studio work environment and also build better relationships with those they may be working with daily anyways. For people who may be hobbyists or wanting to get into the industry full time, it gives them an opportunity to learn those team skills and how to work with others to achieve a common goal. I'm still up for individual contests/challenges as well. I just feel these larger team based ones are of value as well in that they provide experiences working in a vacuum can not.
Thanks again to Polycount and best of luck to all entrants in the ESCAPE contest.
-- One last note before I forget. We also made use of Dropbox during our team effort. It is an easy and affordable solution for resource control of our assets while working together. Everyone had access to every asset made and concepts in real time. This allowed us to iterate and never be in a situation where somebody needed a file and somebody else wasn't online or available to provide it. It was definitely an invaluable tool and we'd highly recommend using it.
So, good or bad, we'd love to hear what you think about a contest like the Escape where its an open theme, loose rules, and you have a lot of time to commit. Did you like that? Did it make you NOT want to enter?
- I really liked the open theme, I don't mind strict or loose rules honestly.
What about the future? Would you like to see more contests like this from us? To us making these larger (epic) contests more open ended for themes and less strict on rules makes it a community vent that is all about creating sexy, creative works of game art. How do you feel about them?
- YES YES YES! I would love to see more contests like this. I think there should be epic challenges once in a while but smaller challenges more often would be awesome. IMO.
What about smaller contests for specific skill sets?
- I personally don't like specific skill/position setcontests. I don't think they are a bad thing but there has been some where I actually had time or really wanted to get into a contest and it was strictly for character artists and I'm an environment artist
...large, open-themed, loosely ruled contests like the Escape?
- I personally prefer open-themed, loosely ruled contests, but I wouldn't mind them being small either. Both small-large would be neat.
...contests where part of the prize is having your content put in to a game? And what if those items can earn some revenue for you?
- I'm not really motivated by money, but having something I make put into a game would be pretty awesome.
...prizes? Do you have thoughts on prizes for contests like this
- Polycount apparel
- Art Books (The Art of Uncharted, Etc.)
- Tutorial DVDs (Eat3d, 3d Motive subscriptions, etc.)
- Possibly art equipment like a Wacom tablet or heck a 3d printer XD
Although I couldn't participate in the Escape challenge due to time, I would love to see more challenges. Small and/or large and can be done by anyone whether they are a Character, FX artist, Animator or Environment Artist. Loosely-based challenges bring out more creativity imo, escape was a perfect example of a challenge. I can't wait to participate in whatever you guys start up next! Thanks for the hard work setting this up and managing it, and also thank you participants for the inspiration and awesome work to look at!
Can't wait to see the awesome stuff coming from it!
1. I love the large, open-themed, loosely ruled contests. It allows for so much creative interpretation.
2. Smaller, more specific challenges also have their place! I think those are a good idea as well.
3. Having your content put into a game is really cool, but that might stop a lot of industry professionals from entering because of their company's policies? And that would be a shame
4. I'm not sure I'm particularly keen on community voting. I've seen some drama come from that, and think perhaps contests should be decided by a large-ish (10-20 or so?), diverse group of judges. But then again, I guess there are pluses to community voting as well, perhaps it will draw the community even closer if everyone feels they have a hand in the results? Just my thoughts
5. Hmm, prizes! xD That Greentooth trophy thing looks seriously awesome hehe. Or any PC swag really. I love that this Escape challenge gives software too, more art tools are always really helpful
I don't have a problem with these challenges being back to back. My overall thought for challenges is that they are great motivators for personal work, and that is never bad:) Only I think that is a lot of work for you admins, so having a break between contests is quite alright. Nobody will die from the wait
I think for future contests though, it would be good to have categories for Team, Individual, Character, and Enviro. These are all so drastically different from each other that they really do seem like they need categories.
But yeah anyway, thanks again, what an amazing learning experience, and I am really looking forward to the next one:)
a solo comp running a month or two after would be nice too maybe
As far as voting, keeping it to a set of judges as opposed to the general public would be better I think, as crazyfool said, when public voting is put in play it can often become a popularity contest.
I personally would love some smaller specific challenges because those are the one I have enough time for. For example, It would be interesting if someone built a simple scene and we tried to light it.
Also, animation only challenges would be nice, but I think those would have to be done right, and a little more tight in turns of rules. Maybe something a little more art test kind of thing. Give the people a few rigs to choose from (hopefully donated from our amazing character artists around here) and say do a walk, or do a triple attack, or a jump attack, or something of the sort. I say a few rigs to choose from because I think if people are left to their own devices in terms of rigs, some people will have a visual advantage from the start as they have a library of badass rigs, compared to others that only have free rigs. Its gotten to a point where its very hard to create a memorable animation with free rigs. Most people cringe at them.
like dominance war used to be : )
These types of exercises seem to get people engaged and working a little bit like a team, at least as feedback and critique are concerned.
This seems to have been kind of organic and sporadic and it would be great to see it on a set schedule with some kind of archive for past challenges, with a dedicated person driving it.
TF2, Dota, DarkSiders, these competitions are great because of their ties to the industry but because I personally don't play those games they passed me by. But they're an important part of the community and I'd never wish them to go away.
Similarly to specific competitions for specific criteria, character, environment, vehicle, low poly, etc, I think there's an important place for them too and they allow for wiggle room for a single person to commit to a more manageable project.
I loved that this was a melting point of styles and seemed to be what the competition was about and competitors took full advantage of it. If I had to gripe about a type of competition set-up it would be when a single competition has too many categories running at once. As an observer it can be hard to keep up, and things can just get muddied down with too many rules and guidelines. IMO I much prefer this free for all.
That being said, considering the range of entries, it seemed odd to me to exclude animation, fx, and videos, I think its cool to free up the competition entries further.
In terms of prizes, I think depending on the type of competition, prizes are cool, but they are not the be all and end all. Software licenses make great prizes. Although I do wonder that if the winners are already industry professionals, might they already have access to these software? It seems a shame that students or aspiring artists who might benefit more from the free software might loose out.
Initially I was put off by the idea of a public vote, as people have said, it can descend into a popularity contest & be subject to bias. I think when prizes are involved it can get that bit more ugly. Also a panel of judges can also return genuine criticism and opinions about the entries.
That being said, getting a judging panel together, organising the returns of verdicts, etc, must be extremely time consuming for all involved. If streamlining the process of setting up and holding these challenges means sticking to a public vote with small or no prizes, then id much rather that be the case.
And lastly, I'm less keen on the regular competitions. I think it can water things down if they are too frequent, and people know what to expect. Also it risks disappointment if people expect it to be on a certain date and for one reason or another it doesn't come about. In all honestly, I like the range of competitions that come out of polycount, it means I never know what to expect and its always going to be a challenge. Keep it fresh :thumbup:
Smaller comps are definitely welcome, though we might run into an issue of not having a ton of entries. I don't see a lot of animation and fx work posted here, though I'd certainly participate in those as well just for fun.
Game credit/revenue is a pretty cool prize. I wasn't really interested in the prizes and typically don't care about them in these types of comps, but a metal greentooth would be pretty awesome. The valve trip is also a pretty cool idea and something unique that most competitions won't have.
Not sure if this is a terrible or great idea, but I'd be interested to see how a milestone system could be implemented in long term contests like this. Something that structures a team's entry(which would actually be helpful to some), and forces people to post updates along the way so others can learn from the process.
Oh yeah, I should also add that this was an awesome comp, and you guys have always done a great job organizing things.
there should be something for newbies.
I'd have liked the entry requirements to be a bit more relaxed - the fact that it was judged based on bitmaps (basically static renders or more traditional 2d) was a limiting factor. Personally, my skills (tech and design) lie in building things that are dynamic and interactive, rather than what can be conveyed in a bitmap - you also threw out the ability for animators to dig in and show off what they can do, amongst various forms of collaboration
I agree with some others that the prizes really dont need to be expensive. It looks like Valve sponsers a lot of these now, and it might be cool if for the smaller competitions (like just a prop), the prizes were just something like pick 1 game from the steam library, or first place is pick any bundle. I dont know what that would cost Valve, but Im guessing very very little. Even if people dont play stuff on steam, they could at least gift it to a friend or something.
Or even just some sort of forum icon to show that you've entered a competition, or won a competition. 11secondclub has a good way of doing that, and might be worth checking out. They just put little badges under your avatar.
But that's not 'official' :poly136:
i have a job and a family, and i really need a giant timeframe to get things done in my freetime.
also the teamwork was very cool, since we were able to create a scene with a bigger scope and therefore a vision. smaller competitions are more to show off the technical side of our art (where i could not ever compete anyway ;D )
and such a big contest puts storytelling and the whole "game"-thingy into foreground.
great contest!
the prices? hmm, they are a plus. i wouldn't mind if there were no prices at all. we artists live by the fame, don't we?
Now winning or loosing doesn't make your work better or worse one bit, so I don't think it should matter too much. But surprisingly the only feedback I've got is in that department
1.Recap - bad idea.
For my team specifically I guess, not sure if it is for anyone else, though.
A lot of people who don't frequent polycount all too often, but still have a valuable voice, based their votes off or at least decided to check out specific threads solely on that recap. Good for people with 2 images - not so much for people with 18
What I'm trying to say is, I don't think it's a good idea to tinker with the way people finally present their work to the audience. I know that it was done with good intentions and I can appreciate that, but in the end it feels right when the teams can choose how their work is going to be presented at the page a lot of people might base their vote off.
I'd say it's better to send people off to Final Submission and in order to make it easier to navigate, we could ask people to keep their breakdowns in their threads and final submissions will be all beauty shots. That would seem more fair.
2. Survey for a vote
I can see where this is coming from and once again I greatly appreciate the effort, but here's a question:
People are voting for their top 3 yet usually they have their number 1,2,3. It wouldn't make a difference if all 3 were winners, but you've also introduced a number 1 spot. Now say everyone's number 3 get's one more vote then most popular number 1 and you've got yourself number 3 for number 1. I dunno if this even warrants a solution 'cause all dem votes are pretty much popularity contests anyway. But if I was pressed to give one I'd say choose top 3 with a survey and then vote for number 1. I doubt many people would show up for a second vote now though, haha
Anyway, the main thing about this competition is that I've had the most amazing privilege to watch so many great artists do fantastic art. And it's both inspiring and humbling. I wish we could just leave it at that.
On a side note many people during this contest have had some real growth. I wish we could reward those who have outdone themselves greatly, rather then those who've outdone the others. Those are the real winners and they have all my respect
Cheers