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game / film subsidies. the race to the bottom and how to protect your profession.

there is real movement now in film for trade organization. most of these issues are the same in games. everyone should watch this to understand WHY the game industry is so f*cked up, why studios close the way they do. and why jobs are shifted all over the world.

you can skip ahead a few minuets past the linkups.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_6DqjOBXYo"]VFX Town Hall on Pi Day - YouTube[/ame]

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  • SuperFranky
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    SuperFranky polycounter lvl 10
    Can we have a summary here? 3 hour talk is too long to watch.
  • gray
    you need to watch it. take some time after work or day off.

    it explains what 'game subsidies' and 'film subsidies', ie, 'tax breaks' really are and how they destroy studios.

    it explains how the large publishers/distribution networks are pushing the profits for studios down.

    it explains 'WHY' you have no bargaining power or stable employment.

    these are the the same issues that are killing the film and the game studios and making the publishers/distributors billions of dollars.
  • artquest
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    artquest polycounter lvl 14
    I remember the pi day stuff, I'm really glad to see talks coming out of the movement. I will be watching this video soon. Thx for posting it.
  • oXYnary
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    oXYnary polycounter lvl 18
    Just listened to it in the background. The issue is I saw too many people agreeing and not enough criticism to those who proposed and backed a Union.

    No one mentioned:
    -Right to work States.
    -The inability of people in say China to be legally able to form a union. (Mentioned but ignored (especially the last guy who claimed a global union was possible).
    -The whole idea of Unions being out of favor in many areas that vote. Getting recognition of VFX industry by the consumer wont be enough. Those consumers who are part of the Union "Null" ideal will turn against or ignore the VFX once they hear the goal was to create a union. While others whose own industries are in hard times will rail ignorantly how they had to work 50 hours a week in construction, and don't make enough. So why should some artist who sits on his ass all day get more than them?


    These and more really needed to be addressed as to form a more concrete plan than the "yes we agree" that many spouted.
  • gray
    @oXYnary

    the main reason i posted this is not the union aspect, although that is a significant part of the video. i posted this for people who have been working for 5+ years and have moved past the 'green' years and want a better understanding of the big picture of publishers and distributors. film vfx has been around longer then games and the trends are a bit ahead of games. most of the issues that effect film vfx also effect games and i think that is only going to increase as time goes on.

    keep in mind that the opinion is mostly from the artist and sup level. there are many owners and studio heads that do not think a union would help much. it would be hard for a union to have an effect on subsidies. there is a lot of good information in the discussion that anyone in film or games needs to at least be aware of.

    there was a second town hall a few days ago this one is more focused on the film business. but its still interesting and has crossover into games.


    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeiHtVxi1c0"]VFX Town Hall 2: Facilities - YouTube[/ame]
  • Bibendum
    Could you elaborate on how this race to the bottom applies to game industry?

    To summarize the description of that problem in the video, VFX houses are perpetually locked in a bidding war with each other because they are all desperate to get work from hollywood studios. They chase subsidies so that they can undercut each other, they shoulder risk for their clients that they shouldn't, and they do it all because if they don't one of their competitors will and they'll be out of business.

    But that is not really the case in the game industry. There aren't ten different studios with competing bids to make Starcraft 3... Most AAA studios are owned by their publishers and the ones that aren't are producing independent games. There are certainly developers out there whose focus is on licensed content but it's not nearly the same share that exists in the VFX industry.
  • gray
    ...

    edit: :)

    reply below.
  • Bibendum
    Okay thanks that clears everything up. I get it now.
  • slipsius
    I see this whole thing as a lack of respect for the people who make it all possible. The artists bust their ass off, then get laid off for making these movies that generate million, or in some case billions of dollars. That's how I see it relate to this industry. There is a massive lack of respect for the employees that create the games. Game profits are up every year, yet, wages continue to go down, and there are constant layoffs. I get that games are just a business, but honestly, treat your employees right. That's all there is too it.
  • gray
    @Bibendum

    there are things that overlap and some that don't. unfortunately all of the bad practices that started in vfx spread to games. the business models for bidding in some vfx are not the same. but the trend is also happening is the large studios that do animated features with original ip such as dreamworks etc. in those cases the large studios and publishers are the same in a lot of ways. and they are playing the same games with the artists. and fallowing the same plan to chase subsidies.

    my pov is that of the artist. all the same issues apply. unhealthy working conditions. unpaid ot. no job security with studios closing left and right. you have to ask why big publisher/studios are constantly closing down studios all the time? why did so many studios close in vancouver in the past few years? is it really that these studios are not profitable? a lot of these studios are being closed to chase subsidies.

    http://www.canadianbusiness.com/business-news/industries/technology-industry/vancouvers-video-game-industry-is-slowly-disappearing/

    as the article points out ubi got over 250 million in free cash plus a 37% labour tax credit per head to open a studio in ontario. 90 people lost there jobs in vancouver at that studio alone. how many of those people bought houses? how many have kids in schools in vancouver etc. its the same model that you see in vfx unfortunately. there are differences but from the artist perspective its the same problems. and it looks on the business side there is a lot of the same crap going on.
  • Overlord
    slipsius wrote: »
    I see this whole thing as a lack of respect for the people who make it all possible. The artists bust their ass off, then get laid off for making these movies that generate million, or in some case billions of dollars. That's how I see it relate to this industry. There is a massive lack of respect for the employees that create the games. Game profits are up every year, yet, wages continue to go down, and there are constant layoffs. I get that games are just a business, but honestly, treat your employees right. That's all there is too it.

    In my opinion, It's not a lack of respect, it's just a complete absence of human empathy. Artists are, like many workers, dehumanized in the eyes of their employers and distilled down to a matter of resources and costs. They don't see people when they do this, they just see their quarterly projections. The longer they hold on to these people, the more likely they are to seek raises, benefits, and such. It's much cheaper to just let them go at the end and hire an all new team that has no bargaining power because they haven't produced anything of value yet. But as soon as they do, you can be sure they'll get the heave-ho so that they don't have to increase their compensation. It's a racket meant to keep wages at their minimum. If the turnover is high, they won't be there long enough to ask for a raise.
  • Bibendum
    gray wrote: »
    @Bibendum

    there are things that overlap and some that don't. unfortunately all of the bad practices that started in vfx spread to games. the business models for bidding in some vfx are not the same. but the trend is also happening is the large studios that do animated features with original ip such as dreamworks etc. in those cases the large studios and publishers are the same in a lot of ways. and they are playing the same games with the artists. and fallowing the same plan to chase subsidies.

    my pov is that of the artist. all the same issues apply. unhealthy working conditions. unpaid ot. no job security with studios closing left and right. you have to ask why big publisher/studios are constantly closing down studios all the time? why did so many studios close in vancouver in the past few years? is it really that these studios are not profitable? a lot of these studios are being closed to chase subsidies.

    http://www.canadianbusiness.com/business-news/industries/technology-industry/vancouvers-video-game-industry-is-slowly-disappearing/

    as the article points out ubi got over 250 million in free cash plus a 37% labour tax credit per head to open a studio in ontario. 90 people lost there jobs in vancouver at that studio alone. how many of those people bought houses? how many have kids in schools in vancouver etc. its the same model that you see in vfx unfortunately. there are differences but from the artist perspective its the same problems. and it looks on the business side there is a lot of the same crap going on.

    Regarding Ubisoft Vancouver, they released a string of very poorly received games before they were shut down. Radical Ent (also mentioned in that article) laid off most of its staff after Prototype 2 sold badly (if I recall correctly, didn't even outsell the first game). Relic laid off tons of people while THQ desperately tried to sort itself out and Microsoft laid off people from their Vancouver branch after canning two projects. All at around the same time so studios in Vancouver weren't doing very well even without having to compete with Toronto.

    You are right though, subsidies didn't help. Rockstar relocated out of Vancouver seeking greener pastures at the time which only worsened the bleeding. And of course there are others in different places, THQ moved out of New York and lest we forget, the 38 studios disaster.

    I appreciate you explaining it, I got hung up on the "race to the bottom" phrase and didn't see much of a parallel.
  • gray
    thanks for posting that information. it shows that there is not a singular factor you can point to in all cases of studio closure and relocation. but the practice is happening in increasing frequency. and the domino effect due to 'clustering' of studios is also increasing.

    it's important to keep in mind that this is not an issue of one city or country against another. that is exactly what the large studios are using to there advantage. they are playing one city against another to drive the amount of tax subsidies and cash payouts up higher and higher. we have to look at this as a phenomenon that is hurting everyone. even if certain cities are benefiting form subsidies at the moment it is only a matter of time before someone else comes along with a better package and the studios get shut down and move. as you can see with what has happened in Vancouver as soon as someone else offers a bigger subsidy and more cash then your whole industry can disappear in a matter of year and relocate to 'greener pasture'.

    as an example of how bad this is becoming there have been some informal estimates that the film subsidies pumped into soho by the uk government covers between 50% to 75% of the overall cost of the major studios investment. that means that any non subsidized studio in los angeles or any where else is competing with a state sponsored price fixing mechanism which reduced there cost by as much as 75%. the studios are now factoring that in as the 'actual' cost. so when they say its not profitable to keep a studio open they really mean there is anoter location which offers a much bigger subsidy. subsidies are already starting to destroy jobs in london now. those same jobs that were moved from la to london are now being moved to toronto, vancouver etc. you are even starting to see some of these jobs shifted to singapore and india. i can only imagine the cost for the studios in places like that must be close to 0.
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