Criticism from gamers
polycounter lvl 6
Hello all
I know we need criticism from the people who know exactly how and what they are doing, the pros but are any of you showing your work (in game) to gamers ?
Do you see it as a valid or valuable opinion for a gamer to be critical of your work. I know a few serious gamers at my work and I have let them see some of my in game creations, basic environment & level design for the moment.
The reason I am doing this is obvious.
I would appreciate your views/comments on this because I use to do this with my music many moons ago and the difference in opinions between people in the industry and music lovers was startling at times.
Cheers
I know we need criticism from the people who know exactly how and what they are doing, the pros but are any of you showing your work (in game) to gamers ?
Do you see it as a valid or valuable opinion for a gamer to be critical of your work. I know a few serious gamers at my work and I have let them see some of my in game creations, basic environment & level design for the moment.
The reason I am doing this is obvious.
I would appreciate your views/comments on this because I use to do this with my music many moons ago and the difference in opinions between people in the industry and music lovers was startling at times.
Cheers
Replies
I remember reading an article years ago that at Pixar everyone watches the movies and are allowed to comment. Because a fresh pair of eyes can give valuable information even if it isn't their specialty.
What is more relevant is being able to decipher what they actually mean when they give crits; often they don't really understand the methodology etc.
If professionals say you suck though...
That has like 5 endorsements man.
Often times gamers also don't know the technical limitations so unless it's really general I wouldn't bother with it too much. Every gamer wants to never see jagged edges or blurry textures ever again. But we know something they don't... which is that they would get 1 fps if we gave them everything they ask for.
Also non artists usually wont know the why... We design the art to guide gamers through the game, all of that stuff is meant to be picked up on a subconscious level. (players automatically go to the brighter areas on a map... how to use color to draw attention to what you want seen, etc , ect.)
Also I've heard gamers say they weren't impressed with the graphics of diablo 3... so for sure take it all with a grain of salt.
haha, seems overly harsh to call it crap, more like tables being turned
this comic illustrates it pretty well link
Like lets say he says:
"This game is unbalanced you should nerf that guys strength!"
Maybe increasing the block speed of the other guy is a better option.
Bad example, but stuff like that gets nothing but positive feedback. Try this instead:
http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/17163/
Or this:
http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/14307/
Or this one, they're all supermodels:
http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/25749/
This one made me laugh:
http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/6585/
Ooh! It's a tiny wittle shield! It so cuwte! I never knew a metal bikini could be considered armor either.
i agree with this though. people can tell when something looks and feels off even if they don't necessarily know why
Most accurate statement, also part of being an artist is understanding criticism and how to apply it to your work.
I don't think that a persons opinion is invalid because they don't do art themselves. Granted an artist might be more direct, but any set of eyes besides yours offers a different perspective and new insight. I'm sure there are plenty of times where you may want to shrug off their opinions because they don't really apply really well, but sometimes people will just see things differently than you (in a good way).
you can not expect gamers or the general public to have that sort of crit. what you can expect is the opinion of the viewer. that is not to be discounted. in fact its very valuable. but i would not consider it proper criticism.
the trick is to be able to weigh opinions and put them in the proper category.
It's sad when artists themselves are toxic to another like this, shameful really, for people who are in on the job, should know better then be so...vile full of bile about it.
As for gamers...well, it's a mixed bag.
With nowadays, everyone trying to find some little petty reason to get offended and instead of dissecting a piece of art and how it can be improved all in all, they either try and stigmatize it, or laugh at it with (as Gray said) with limiting vocabulary and poor understanding of what certain words under certain phrases mean.
It also doesn't help that everyone has a certain bias towards something, there will be always 'that nerd' who wants Assassin Creed set in space or ancient japan or in africa, and anything less make the art direction 'white washed' (I'm not kidding, you can thank Kotaku for such selfless site of infestation).
It also doesn't help that a majority of gamers are the 'mushy middle' of you consumer base, they're the same people that say they don't want more Nazi Zombie games, but turn around and want some more because you threw in a couple of dinosaurs or robots.
Same people who throw a couple of cogs on a piece of swimsuit and call it steampunk, all under some weird fetish I clearly missed.
So yeah, honestly, I think you should take matters into your own hands and instead 'learn how to filter criticism', because a large portion of the people on the opposite side of the table sure as hell aren't going to try.
Still don't see the problem. They all still have a ridiculously low amount of endorsements in comparison to mods of good quality. I don't see how getting positive feedback for this is a problem. Consumers on places like that are not art critics they are consumers, the feedback expected is pretty much "do you like" "do you not like"
We're debating whether listening to the the end user has value for us as artists, which is definitely debatable. But in this case I don't see how if - you make art, any art, and the end user says "I like it"
...that's bad?
No, they're not the top mods, but they don't have to be. The problem is, that those mods get a large number of comments telling them that their art is "good" and any critique that isn't a pat on the back is quickly brushed off or attacked. A lot of people that have no real skill in art are making terrible works and getting praised like they are game industry superstars without any sort of a reality check. That's why I don't take gamers seriously, they won't even admit when something is bad. They don't really know what's good either, which is why such ugly work gets so much positive feedback.
I'd much rather take the critique of someone more experienced than myself or at least a peer of equal skill. I can usually tell on my own when something isn't right, but it sometimes take a more practiced opinion to tell me why it's not right.
Edit:
And then there is this one:
http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/8714/
This is the most endorsed npc mod on The Nexus.
I dumped a questionnaire on here a while back, (Thank you to everyone who filled it out), then handed out one to public and then a set to those in my course. The gripes with what makes X Appealing was always different from each angle. Curiously simple one would be that professionals found music was the most immersive aspect of games, while average users found graphics & lighting (equally) most important.
Music is by far more immersive as proven on so many low graphic games but the users didn't care, they saw the graphics and assumed that they were immersive. (Don't tell me your heart never sank when kharak burned on Homeworld 1) You can't just disregard all that you have learnt to see it from the consumer's perspective. Nor can you lower your IQ to that of the average steam workshop voter to understand it.
Lastly if it's your own work it becomes all the harder to view it from a neutral sitting as you have a investment in it. I've only came across two artists who were indifferent to their work, one simply burnt his canvases the other whitewashed over his. An they were true artists spending a year plus on canvases (more than one at a time with smaller work in between)(makes me sad i moved away).
TLDR:
There will always be a difference of worth and weight between you and the end user. They will never know the amount of effort you have put into it, nor will they thank you easily for it. That's life, it's shit.
Homeworld bitches;
[ame="
Well I do agree with you about the quality of artistic critiquing but I really think these are all terrible examples. I mean the nexus really, really really is not about 'giving artists a reality check'. They just ask for generic feedback up/down votes. People there don't want to rip into each others work for no good reason, good reason never being because they consider themselves to know art better.
You say gamers won't admit when something is bad; well how about looking outside of the nexus? I haven't seen more petty and more dissatisfied people than gamers. The 'Fine Art' section on Kotaku regularly shows the work of brilliant artist, even ones from Polycount and still commenters are like "shit sucks."
All of your examples are like pretty girl/pretty boy/nudie mods and so I'm getting the impression that you're not criticising the artistic talent but the artistic direction, and that therefore it's somehow right to leap up and go "hey man nudie mods? really? where's your skills? where's your artistic integrity?" Considering that people seem to want and indeed enjoy them then what's the big deal? (hell some of the sexy lady mods there if you can find them took some good skill) Are you concerned that that talent is somehow wasted?
Maybe it's just because I'm a terrible artist but I would want nothing more than to make art and be continually praised by my peers for it. I only self-flaggellate and seek the likes of you guys critique because I hope someday to get a job, and I gotta say that anybody with a mod on the net has an advantage over me right now.
**Edit
The obvious point being here that gamer critique will never be art critique (unless they are artists) since they are approaching the game from a different angle, as consumers, and not critics. Good to have? Yes. Helpful? Maybe. Improves our art? Not really.
No, I don't endorse their artistic direction. They're playing to the weak minded and taking a shortcut to praise and notoriety. They're not trying to be good, just be popular. That's what bothers me. And the mindless praise they get is indicative of their lack of ability to competently judge art. They post and praise porn mods, so I don't trust them to have an objective and informed opinion on art. It's not really any specific mod or class of mods, but a feeling I get from browsing the hordes of mods and seeing the cream of the crap getting lauded as the greatest thing since sliced bread that gets my hackles up. The truly great stuff is deservedly praised (insanity's mods are stunning), but just as much I see the lowest common denominator getting a pat on the back.
I'm not saying either that I want endless praise, and I know it's hard to tell through the internet but I don't feel anything disingenuous about those examples. Terrible yes, but if that's what a) the artist really wanted to make, regardless of skill and b) people really like it; Ehhhh whatever, I think itgets what it deserves. McDonalds is still raking in money from making exactly what people want, even though there's way better burgers objectively: I wouldn't question their integrity as burger makers because of that.
Btw the only reason I call myself a terrible artist is because I'm pretty much amateur and I can't pull out the experience card on any of my arguments. I hate dishonesty and one of my greatest fears about posting here is that I'll be made 'an example of' when I contribute to discussions that I may not have professional experience in.