LGBT issues and sexual diversity in games
ngon master
This thread was sparked by a quote from Peter Moore when talking about The Worst Company in America Poll. This is what he said
In the past year, we have received thousands of emails and postcards protesting against EA for allowing players to create LGBT characters in our games. This week, were seeing posts on conservative web sites urging people to protest our LGBT policy by voting EA the Worst Company in America.
That last one is particularly telling. If thats what makes us the worst company, bring it on. Because we're not caving on that.
As a gay man I am offended that Peter Moore thinks EA is some how a role model company for being so progressive towards LGBT rights, he believes that should protect EA from criticism. It's insulting. I respect that they hosted a conference to speak about LGBT issues in games, and have been publicly against DOMA. But artistic mediums have always been very progressive on social issues. EA's games, and games in general, have always been ignorant in the ways they address sexual identities of characters and the struggles they face. I don't believe EA is the only company that has a lot of room to improve how they portray LGBT characters in their games. But instead I feel this is an issue that most games need to better address when dealing with sexual diversity.
The Sims and several of BioWare's releases are the only EA games (that I know of) that address homosexuality. The Sims simply allows characters to have homosexual relations, but the characters do not actually have any sort of sexuality. They'll sleep with anyone that they build a deep relationship with. It's just an option and does not address any issues. Completely optional choices that most players will never have to see or address. And it's very much the same thing in Mass Effect. In The Sims and Mass Effect there's no discrimination, no prejudice, no internal struggles, no issues facing ones own sexuality. The characters do not have to over come how society views them. The options in Bioware's games just feel like pandering and being edgy for the sake of stirring up some controversy. Do I feel The Sims needs a deeper exploration of sexuality? No, but I do feel like it is an over simplification of sexual identity, and an easy solution to make sure LGBT are not excluded.
There are games that actually address issues like these at much deeper levels, such as racism in Bioshock Infinite and the two LGBT characters in Persona 4. Bioshock Infinite has an amazing scene at the beginning of the game, just watch this:
[ame="
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0uBF9v9jwg"]BioShock: Infinite (Part 2) - Profit or Prophet? - YouTube[/ame]
The game game gives you the choice to join this racist crowd at ridiculing and physically beating an interracial couple. Because it gives you a choice you actually have a moment to think of how fucked up the option is, Would I really throw something at a black person for just being black? Would I partake in bigotry like this towards anyone? Have I ever done something wrong just because my peers were telling me to? It really makes you questions what moral decisions you've made in your life. This the correct way to address a moral dilemma. Even though it is a fake choice that doesn't have any long term consequences, just because the player has to stop and think about what they would do, makes it an amazing element of the game that adds to the setting and narrative of the game.
Another game that does an amazing job at portraying a gay man and a young women struggling with her sexuality is Persona 4. I have not played the game, and even if I had, I doubt I could do a better job of explaining how important the character exploration in Persona 4 is. It is what makes the characters interesting and relatable, and gives you more information about the society and the culture within the story. To quote wikipedia homosexuality in men is commonly misconstrued with transgenderism and transvestism in Japan and open homosexuality is rare, due to conformity. Gay men are considered beautiful boys and are viewed weak, they are not manly or masculine.
[ame="
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es1efpcRjLY"]Extra Credits, Season 1, Episode 20 - Sexual Diversity - YouTube[/ame]
I know this is also a issue in films and TV, where game characters are often displayed as shallow stereotypes, but there's always a few surprises of works that pull it off well, such as the movie J. Edgar, and Small Town Gay Bar. But in a gaming culture where it's common to call other players gay and faggots, I feel it is even important to properly address sexual identifies and LGBT issues in games, and not just pander to the gaymer community by just having options.
TLDR: Just having the option to have a gay character or optional gay story lines does not make a game progressive and shows ignorance of actual sexual identities. You can't just make characters bi and claim its exploring LGBT issues.
In the past year, we have received thousands of emails and postcards protesting against EA for allowing players to create LGBT characters in our games. This week, were seeing posts on conservative web sites urging people to protest our LGBT policy by voting EA the Worst Company in America.
That last one is particularly telling. If thats what makes us the worst company, bring it on. Because we're not caving on that.
As a gay man I am offended that Peter Moore thinks EA is some how a role model company for being so progressive towards LGBT rights, he believes that should protect EA from criticism. It's insulting. I respect that they hosted a conference to speak about LGBT issues in games, and have been publicly against DOMA. But artistic mediums have always been very progressive on social issues. EA's games, and games in general, have always been ignorant in the ways they address sexual identities of characters and the struggles they face. I don't believe EA is the only company that has a lot of room to improve how they portray LGBT characters in their games. But instead I feel this is an issue that most games need to better address when dealing with sexual diversity.
The Sims and several of BioWare's releases are the only EA games (that I know of) that address homosexuality. The Sims simply allows characters to have homosexual relations, but the characters do not actually have any sort of sexuality. They'll sleep with anyone that they build a deep relationship with. It's just an option and does not address any issues. Completely optional choices that most players will never have to see or address. And it's very much the same thing in Mass Effect. In The Sims and Mass Effect there's no discrimination, no prejudice, no internal struggles, no issues facing ones own sexuality. The characters do not have to over come how society views them. The options in Bioware's games just feel like pandering and being edgy for the sake of stirring up some controversy. Do I feel The Sims needs a deeper exploration of sexuality? No, but I do feel like it is an over simplification of sexual identity, and an easy solution to make sure LGBT are not excluded.
There are games that actually address issues like these at much deeper levels, such as racism in Bioshock Infinite and the two LGBT characters in Persona 4. Bioshock Infinite has an amazing scene at the beginning of the game, just watch this:
[ame="
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0uBF9v9jwg"]BioShock: Infinite (Part 2) - Profit or Prophet? - YouTube[/ame]
(at 41 minutes)
The game game gives you the choice to join this racist crowd at ridiculing and physically beating an interracial couple. Because it gives you a choice you actually have a moment to think of how fucked up the option is, Would I really throw something at a black person for just being black? Would I partake in bigotry like this towards anyone? Have I ever done something wrong just because my peers were telling me to? It really makes you questions what moral decisions you've made in your life. This the correct way to address a moral dilemma. Even though it is a fake choice that doesn't have any long term consequences, just because the player has to stop and think about what they would do, makes it an amazing element of the game that adds to the setting and narrative of the game.
Another game that does an amazing job at portraying a gay man and a young women struggling with her sexuality is Persona 4. I have not played the game, and even if I had, I doubt I could do a better job of explaining how important the character exploration in Persona 4 is. It is what makes the characters interesting and relatable, and gives you more information about the society and the culture within the story. To quote wikipedia homosexuality in men is commonly misconstrued with transgenderism and transvestism in Japan and open homosexuality is rare, due to conformity. Gay men are considered beautiful boys and are viewed weak, they are not manly or masculine.
[ame="
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es1efpcRjLY"]Extra Credits, Season 1, Episode 20 - Sexual Diversity - YouTube[/ame]I know this is also a issue in films and TV, where game characters are often displayed as shallow stereotypes, but there's always a few surprises of works that pull it off well, such as the movie J. Edgar, and Small Town Gay Bar. But in a gaming culture where it's common to call other players gay and faggots, I feel it is even important to properly address sexual identifies and LGBT issues in games, and not just pander to the gaymer community by just having options.
TLDR: Just having the option to have a gay character or optional gay story lines does not make a game progressive and shows ignorance of actual sexual identities. You can't just make characters bi and claim its exploring LGBT issues.
Replies
8 seasons of House and only 1 episode that mentions asexuality, and the guy was only "asexual" just because of a medical problem... and his "asexual" girlfriend was only "asexual" until he was "cured".
That's kinda disappointing, the one time that I've seen it being acknowledged is to say that it was either an illness or a lie.
Master Chief from Halo. The books say his modifications have a side effect of having no sex drive.
Psycho Mantis from Metal Gear Solid too.
Oh cool. So asexuality is not just a illness or a lie, it's also a side effect from some modifications or being psychotic!
Agreed.
That's partially the point I wanted to raise as well.
If sexuality was an issue worth bringing up (and from topics like this, it seems it is), why isn't asexuality relevant?
Does this not fall in the same kind of "issues" that certain people feel about the sexual diversity in games/other media?
What if the asexual player/viewer/whatever wants to have/see romantic relationships, but not sexual ones, and yet all the "partner" choices are sexual?
If LGBT people want to see characters going through relatable experiences, why can't asexuals also want to see that happening?
Asexuals might not be hated by many, but they still have problems as well. Like trying to find a partner who either understands and just "lives with it", or eventually breaking up because the partner wants sex or whatever.
Or the feeling of being an outsider, how/why "everyone else" thinks differently from you and how/why the whole world seems to be so obsessed with sex.
There are plenty of issues that can be discussed, it's not as simple as being a "non issue".
Although I do admit, that I couldn't care less about these issues being explored in games/other media. I play games for fun/achievement/competition.
I'm just posting mostly out of curiosity.
I think there is absolutely no need for sexuality to be brought up in any game either.
But apparently, some games/lore do feel the need to bring it up, as we've discovered from this thread. Master Chief and Psycho Mantis are. What's the point of letting the players know about their sexuality?
Why do people think it isn't "relevant" to their character?
It doesn't say nothing about them, in fact it says very clearly what that part of them is like.
Plenty of games do this. Link, Cloud, Mario; all have romantic interests but never ever let it stray into sexual.
The rest of you post seems to backpedal. You say you want more asexual characters then say 'why did they feel the need to make MasterChief and Mantis asexual?'
But yes, you are right. The majority of characters are actually asexual. That's interesting, never thought about it that way before (even if many of them are that way because of the age of their target audience).
Still, I don't see many adult-themed references of it!
Sorry for derailling the thread
Games don't need to bring up romantic relationships, but that is one of the most common character motivations in all video games. I'm not saying that sexuality needs to brought up in every game, but when games implement it simply as a choice, its not exploring the issues LGBT (and asexuals) face. It doesn't develop the characters. It simplifies sexuality into a conscious choice which is obviously a harmful belief, that causes a lot of issues among people questioning their sexuality. If it wasn't simply a choice, like in real life, they game would actually be addressing real issues.
Also on the Master Chief being asexual, if that was actually addressed in the game, it might of improved the character and the relationship Master Chief has with Cortana. I only played the first 2 games, and found their relationship weirdly romantic on some level, Chief and Cortana need each other on more than just a tactical level. It could explain why Master Chief is a loner, and feels so disconnected from everyone else, but this computer.
It's about EA downplaying the fact that people are mispleased with them as people just doing it because they are homophobes and bigots, which ironically includes a healthy chunk of LGBT people as well.
(OP I do agree with your post by the way to a degree, I just think the whole "not enough gay people in games" problem isn't really that big of a problem as people make it out to be. You can't expect to please every demographic. Yes, there isn't a whole lot of LGBT in games but I think that will change over the coming years. We just need to give it time.)
When did sexual orientation become a major factor anyway folks? Honestly who cares how these characters are orientated? Does it really add to the gaming experience?
did anyone give a hoot?
In Chrono trigger, Flea was supposedly transgender, but that really didn't add to the gaming experience did it?
This is again going back to the "me" character; that is no good. Shouldn't characters be farther away from our norms so that we can get a new perspective or be really intrigued?
In my opinion the gaming experience is becoming too "human" and that is no good; it always seems about those who we wish we were
Kinda how I'm seeing it too. Shoehorning "diverse" characters into something just for the sake of having them there is hackneyed crap. You include those aspects if A) they're even relevant, and
The example I always like to use is The Hunt For Red October. Somebody complained about it once when I mentioned it because they said "it's a stupid macho movie without any women."
First, Gates McFadden is in it (at the very beginning), so obviously they were so concerned about having a woman in the movie that they MISSED ONE. Second, there were no women on submarines in the Cold War... especially Russian submarines. But most importantly, the story works perfectly as it is. It has the things it needs and only the things it needs. It has Russian sailors, and American sailors, a couple of submarines, and the plucky CIA dude, and that's all it needs. Could you force a female character in there? Probably. But why? The story doesn't require it. It'd be hastily duct-taped onto a carefully assembled piece of work and the whole thing would start to spin out of whack.
I'd love to see more games covering LGBT topics, but if we keep trying to jam them into random games for the sake of being able to add "NOW WITH MORE AND BETTER QUEER GAMEPLAY!" to the marketing material, nobody's going to come out ahead. This is the kind of stuff that deserves to be explored and presented legitimately, cohesively, and methodically, in a game experience created carefully for it, just like any well-crafted and well balanced work.
i dont agree with this. it feels like your saying that lgbt issues needs to be explored in their own games, not shoehorned in in the "normal" games. that would create two types of games, where in the "normal" games every character is pressumed to be straight. of course you should never shoehorn ANYTHING in for the sake of marketing, but trying to adress the issue by creating a sub category of games labeled lgbt-games is not the right way i think.
what needs to happen is that we should take away that assumption that every character is straight. how? maybe make the love interest the same sex as the main character? make a overly sexualised gay dude version of cortana? maybe hint at underlying erotic feelings among the dudes in gears of war? they sure spend a lot of time together, just a couple of comments and camera angels could work, following marcus fenix gaze when hes checking out cole trains ass...
as with all issues like this in the games industry, sexism, racism and so on, i dont think that the solution is to make games solely aimed black or gay people, but change the industry as a whole, to make the people who make the games able to create more diverse characters and plots in ALL games, and not be limited to the white, straight, 30-year old males.
In other words if people care more about what sexual orientation character in game have, than about just accepting it and moving over we are really screwed.
In other words doom is approaching us.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all.
I'm saying don't try and force a square peg into a hole that isn't even there. If gender roles or sexual preferences or issues like that have nothing to do with the story at hand, "throwing some diversity in there" just for the sake of "being more diverse" accomplishes nothing and can muck up what was otherwise a tight, cohesive narrative.
Would Homeworld have been a better game if an appearance by some aspect of LGBT topics was crammed into it? No, because sexuality and gender roles don't have anything to do with Homeworld's story arc of space ships, interplanetary genocide, and galactic vengeance. Throw LGBT topics in there and frankly, one of these apples is not like the others, and everybody can instantly tell.
I'm not saying LGBT topics should be partitioned off to only their own games. I'm saying they deserve to be treated better than simply being irrelevantly and anachronistically duct-taped to something else just so somebody can thump their chest about how sufficiently diverse something is. Let's build something from the ground up that includes those subjects logically and cohesively, and not consign them to being a forced, incongruous afterthought.
All in all,I think it don't matter with playing games.
hmm yeah i get what your saying and im partially agree with you. obviously a lot of games doesnt need to have lgbt characters in them, tetris for example.
BUT!
Very often there is already a romantic interest shoehorned into games where it isnt really relevant. cortana for example. masterchief is fighting to save the galaxy from the threat of aliens or whatever, and according to an earlier post, he is completely asexual. no need for a love interest in that story right? but still there is this basically naked, oversexualized woman that he cares about and that cares about him. you can say that he has sexual-dampening medicine all you want, their relationship still follows the straight norm society teach us.
so, what im saying is, if we are going to have a shoehorned romantic interest in the story anyways, why cant it be one of lgbt-nature?
So you want to see a LBGT content in games? just become a developer. It's better not to criticize.
BTW, cortana is not a computer IA? X-Men are more oversezualized than an hologram!
gotta love Blaizer's solutions...
Want different content in a game? become a developer
Want different TV program? become a director
Want different books? become an author
endless possibilities here! why didn't we think of that?
so those clearly should be optional, so people like me can stay in their "flowers and bees" world
You mean you don't want any LGBT here? :S
Nope, in fact i have some gay friends... and as far as i know there are some gays lurking these forums. But what i pointed is that these kind of threads are pointless.
And you know... a game with LGBT content would not sell very well. It's just common sense.
Google "Fujoshi"
Persona 4
You're very confused, games are not about your sexuality going on a wild road-trip, it's about people in all shapes and types.
Like i said, Because this whole thread it's pointless
eld, that's your point of view, and i'm sure you are making too many assumptions :P
Persona 4 has LGBT content? gay or lesbian love? seriously? that's a surprise (I'm being ironic...). Man, that's a japanese game, so it's not a valid example.
Anyone googled "fujoshi"? i don't think so. XDDD
Wait...so, I googled it. It's a japanese term that, near as I can tell, is same-sex-romance-fan-fiction of established manga and IP that did not otherwise have same-sex romance.
So now I'm confused...
1: How is that related to the conversation, other than just throwing a tired stereotype of the LGBT community around?
2: how is your japanese example different than Mithdia's japanese example?
3: How does being 'japenese' have anything to do with the topic at hand????
4: How is this 'fujoshi' not the EXACT description of defined marketplace, and thus WOULD have an audience (and thus predictable sales) if a game were made catering to its fans? How is 'googling fujoshi' supposed to lead to me toward your argument that an LGBT game would sell poorly???
I'm a firm believer in General Discussion but please don't poke the bear.
There has been enough poking in other threads, but let this one go.
LOL
Awesome choice of words.
The majority of gamers don't like these things, it's a fact.
:S
Blazier, what the hell are you talking about? Seriously, you keep on writing but this is all I hear:
[ame="
Dude...When you bring up niche sexual fetishes...the LGBT community has *nothing* on some of the bizarre shit out there. Come on man! Have you seen this thing we call the internet?!? LGBT isn't even a 'niche'--it's an identity quality, not a lifestyle choice.
Let's play a little with your example, using a classic niche fetish:
1: That argument would assume that all heterosexual people are 'furries'
2: That argument assumes that the qualities of 'furries' are the only qualities of being 'straight' that would be worth talking about in a game
3: That argument assumes that no homosexual or bi people could also be 'furries'. I'd be willing to bet there are a sizable number of bi/straight girls who are still into your Fujoshi stuff...because kids today are all over the roadmap with their manga (yay, moar generalizations!!!)!
-apologies to any polycounter furries who feel marginalized by this post.
Edit: removed personal attack that has no place here (I got a bit too grumpy for a moment).
So get together and make LBGT games if you think there are not enough of them. You've got the power.
< rant >
Say what you will about EA, but Mass Effect, Dragon Age and The Sims are their only kind of AAA games that really benefit from any kind of romance, and they all include 'unbiblical' sexual choices.
Do all of their games? No. There's no romance in any of the FIFA or NBA or NASCAR games (as far as I know) but there doesn't need to be. There are games like Dead Space and Shank that have a bit of heterosexual romance in there, sure, but it doesn't play a very important role.
I think it's funny how Bioshock Infinite gets mentioned as a good example. Take a look at the relationship between the characters there? I don't think 2K's Borderlands or GTA or Max Payne are really pushing the envelope in LBGT issues either. Yes there are (apparently) gay people in BL2, but "most players will never have to see or address" them either - I wasn't aware of them either until someone pointed them out to me.
Ubisoft? Assasin's Creed slightly broke the mold with a black woman, but no LBGT things I think. Far Cry, Prince of Persia, Call of Juarez aren't great rolemodels either (especially The Cartel).
Now-defunct THQ, who took on some fairly risky IPs (Metro, Homefront, STALKER; not your average US-Marine shooters) hasn't done a lot of sexual exploration either. Though I suppose the WWE games have sweaty men groping and grinding against eachother...
Valve? Nope, not even them. Though they do have a bit of ethnic diversity and they have a fairly good amount of female protagonists, there is not a lot of romance, nor LBGT-ish things as far as I know. Though to be fair, they also have by far the smallest game catalog of the mentioned publishers.
So in all honesty, EA is actually not doing a bad job here. Yes there are a bunch of indies out there like anna anthropy that focus heavily on the subject, and some asian games, but in the western world, EA is actually... putting in relatively much effort?
As for the public backlash and them holding their ground ans absolving other sins. You're exaggerating. They never said that this is the one and only reason they don't suck. And I have no issue believing that they did in fact get a lot of sexualism-focused hatemail from religious people and other assorted intolerants.
Also, I'd like to shout out to the movie Lincoln. Though it is strongly artistic and only mildly historical it argues one strong point: political moderation is more productive than extremism. I feel as though this is the same stance EA applies. Yes it can be said that they are not doing enough, but the sad state is that if they WOULD make enormous efforts to promote equality, a lot of people wouldn't buy their games, and it could potentially destroy them.
And in my eyes, having somewhat-helpful games out making a profit is better than a few sophisticated games that keep being financial duds and only bolster the idea of "LBGT games don't sell". Rome wasn't built in a day, and there are still racists out there even though it's been banned for decades. It could take a generation, or even longer, to get the general population to open up.
In short: stop hating so much on EA. At least for this reason. They're no saints, but they're doing fairly well in this respect. If you want to hate them, hate them for things like DRM, online passes, and fucked up server availability.
< / rant >
what the hell is an LGBT game ?
i feel like people are getting two completely different things mixed up all together.
sex/relationships/romance is one thing and sexual orientation in terms of identity diversity is a completely different thing.
This is not exact quote but the point is still the same.
I'm not saying there needs to be gay characters in games, just if they are putting them in games, their sexual identity should have some effect on the character, not some after thought option thrown in to cater towards LGBT gamers.
As inspiring and uplifting this sounds, but how? Quit my well paid job and go indie just so I am justified in complaining? How is this a solution for everyone here in this thread (Unless they already happen to be game designers or executive producers).
I still think it's okay to criticize the food even if you're no chef , nor intend to become one.
I think - believe it or not - we are agreeing, vehemently. :poly142:
They don't even have to say it out loud, but often in games you learn everything there is about characters during travels and perhaps now and then you'll figure out that not everyone in the world is heterosexual, without them suggesting you have sex.
Which is why I think Levines attitude is healthy, but many will have Blaizers: "Let not because it's weird and it wont sell"
And on top of this ZacD's big point about EA and bioware which is often "Let make sexuality a non-point, or lets have a game where sexuality means SEXPORTUNITY!" and then on top of that inaccurately boast about it.