Ninjas,your post does come across a bit negative toward artists on the whole, but is it that you are suggesting we all become tech artists to avoid getting fired? (unless I have missed the point entirely). I really really don't like maths and physics:)
would you really want a studio full of tech artists?, it would be bit of a sterile environment for my liking.
No, but I did google a little bit and it seems tech artists make about 10K more than regular artists. Any normal pro-level game artist could pick up basic tech artist skills in a couple months if they felt like it.
But really what I'm talking about is learning enough to appreciate what another person's job is. Mutual respect is based on understanding. How are you going to be the boss of people who code if you have no idea what their job is like at all?
People seem to think that when I talk about respect that I think you are getting dissed all day every day. I think it's a given that you don't work with complete assholes who are trying to constantly insult you. What I mean is, would coders or business people be okay with it if an artist was their boss?
obviously a minor point given the thrust of this thread but this kind of sweeping generalization reminds me of another recent thread about programmers.
So the opposite of sweeping generalizations is to go in to specific detail of every person I know, which would be boring and pointless.
I wouldn't want to work with a coder who made a lot of typos or couldn't spell very well because he would be constantly hunting down bugs in his code that shouldn't exist.
People seem to think that when I talk about respect that I think you are getting dissed all day every day. I think it's a given that you don't work with complete assholes who are trying to constantly insult you. What I mean is, would coders or business people be okay with it if an artist was their boss?
Totally understand. But lets flip the situation to what seems like is the norm nowadays. Business people/people with a coding background are definitely in charge of artists more often than not and depending on the studio know little to nothing about artists and how long it takes to finish an asset which in turn leads to long hours and unneeded crunch. I'm all for mutual understanding but there's give and take on both sides.
Any normal pro-level game artist could pick up basic tech artist skills in a couple months if they felt like it.
I just don't agree with that at all, some folks are just not tech minded, that's why tech artist is a separate job. If it was that easy we would be all doing it.
I wouldn't want to work with a coder who made a lot of typos or couldn't spell very well because he would be constantly hunting down bugs in his code that shouldn't exist.
Inability to spell and programming ability are not mutually exclusive traits.
Ew, completely disagreeing with the bulk of your message. I'm not a mathematician, nor a programmer. These things are not relevant to my life or my job. Coming from a fine arts background, though, what IS incredibly relevant to me as an artist in games is my broad traditional art and art history background that helps shape every major decision I make and define my style.
I use math about as much as I use all that Chinese I learned in the army. What kind of artist you are is partly shaped by your experiences, and while your suggestions might be right for some people, to say that's what everyone needs to focus on is a pretty huge generalization.
I'm good, I did the first year of a BSc Physics, so my math is/was very good especially coordinate geometry, cartesian equations, even vector calculus...
But art is what I love, I dont do it for money, or pleasing other people within a studio, I just love being creative.
unless you're a shader guy or work with rigs and animation there's very little math in tech art. Most of the pipeline stuff is revision control, databases, xml. A lot of art tools aren't really very heavy on math either. Then you have the enforcing of rules and QA stuff (via tools), which isn't math heavy. You train artists in conventions and tools user (also not math heavy), you write docs or simplify manuals for artist use (usually not math heavy), or you do day to day troubleshooting (help, maya won't start!). There's a few areas where you need solid math, but there's also many where you don't.
On the other hand, if a studio of tech-artists would be dull then you probably don't have tech artists in your studio but programmers in disguise (generalization alert! but it goes with the thread ). The best thing about being a tech ARTIST is that you're close to the ART side of things and that you should care about Art! We don't do production art usually, but, at least for me, I think tech artists need a good idea of it, so we know what you clients - the artists - feel is important. We're on their side and our solutions have to support their art, not work against it. And finally, we hope to provide tools which are easy and fun to use, unlike some of the "programmer uis" - so we do a bit of UI design too.
Now all this might give a TA a 10k pay hike (I never looked into this myself, just quoting the previous poster), but a regular artist just getting a bit scripting under his belt won't make such a jump. The days of the "script kiddie" TA are mostly over, except maybe for smaller studios, but then again I've seen some pretty sophisticated Unity pipelines in some casual games places....
As someone coming from EU to the US, all I know is : I wouldn't work @ Blizzard if I didn't have a Bachelor degree... It's as simple as that. Degrees are such a major leverage when it comes to US immigration. Especially if you aren't a video game rock star. H1B with a proper degree is WAY easier to get than an O1 (if you are, once again, someone who isn't internationally known / unpublished or didn't win any contest).
I completely understand that US student don't want to spend so much money on school where they will barely learn the basics and get into a 15 years debt plan. But for any European junior artist wishing to someday move in the US to work for a cool company : A degree is probably what will make the difference between being able to work there or not. Also, make sure to get a 4 years degree and not a regular 3 years bachelor (like me...), this will also make a difference for your green card application.We are talking about a minimum of 5 years difference (3 years with 4 years degree VS 8 years with a 3 years degree)
Long story short : You aren't getting a degree to learn much, you are getting it to make sure you can work and STAY wherever you want.
Jasper Byrne (lone survivor)
Edmund McMillian (super meat boy)
Cactus (hotline miami)
Justin Ma (FTL)
Adam Saltzman (canabalt)
Derek Yu (spelunky)
This is a list of people, off the top of my head, that do some coding and make great art that is well integrated into commercially successful games. These games have a lot of heart and meaning -- they're fun and resonate with players. These artists made important design decisions on these games. They all make WAY more money than your average game artist.
Even though there are some impressive technically skilled artists on Polycount, I can't think of anyone from here who I think makes better art than these guys. As a 3D artist, Photo-realistic rocks and bikini girls are kind of impressive because I know they are hard to make, but those are ultimately about as artistic as a beer commercial.
I have basically been unlearning a lot of what I learned on Polycount over the years. I think it's funny that a lot of folks keep harping on one point of learning some math and code, and completely ignore all the other points that would make them a more sensitive artist.
@Ruz I would have agreed that two months was not enough for some folks to pick up basic scripting skills, but in the last year a couple of really amazing resources have been put online.
I don't actually do any technical art at all, not because I can't, but because I don't care to. The new skills I have spent the last couple years cultivating are how to work faster, how to network with people at trade events (ie, parties), and how to make better narrative and control context in games.
I lot of artists have been striving for the skills to make really realistic characters over the years. I suspect that scanner technology will make all those skills extremely niche fairly soon, like hand-painted textures skills, or hand-animation skills are now.
Degrees are a method for measuring someone's qualifications in a given field. If getting a job is 90% dependent on a resume, as it is for most mid-high income jobs, a degree is probably mandatory. This concept doesn't apply as much to artists however because we can show our portfolios. A doctor can't line up a group of healthy people and claim he cured them... unless you're on TV at 3am.
I've found that as long as you're mature, friendly and professional, you can get along with pretty much anyone. Saying a simple hello to someone when you pass by goes a long way.
Coding is much more about logic than math. When there is math, it's not about knowing the answer to the equation so much as knowing how to solve it. Code is art for programmers. They work just as hard, have their own personal projects, and their own little social circles based on it.
edit: Ninjas, I think you're confusing style with skill. Most artists here focus on realism because that requires the most work. It's the most technically impressive to other artists. Most games however are not realistic. Using a more stylistic approach often saves time and sets your game apart from others visually. That's why vector art is so popular amongst indie developers, it's quick and looks good when done right which, ironically, is a skill in itself but requires far less discipline to achieve.
Programmer: In order to deduce the hierarchical quantification value of the reacorial phenomonogram in relation to the uni-reprisable molecular order, one must unfurl the niobes of didactic entropy to render the phellomenions relatively impylien.
Artist: Imbma retardid artistt hoo kant reed or spel guud!!!\\ gimvem meee artt jerbbb!!!!! I KAN DRAWR PICXTURZ N STUFFF!!
hmm. I cant really envision any artist looking for work, walking in to the interview room and suddenly start talking like this.
is there some misconception here that artist has to be associated with specificity game level art and do we all need to be indie dev/become entrepreneur? not always ..
if I had more time I would rather learn fine art and sculp, learn make ups/ prosthetic and cloth design/fashion design.
I lot of artists have been striving for the skills to make really realistic characters over the years. I suspect that scanner technology will make all those skills extremely niche fairly soon, like hand-painted textures skills, or hand-animation skills are now.
I wish too, so we can focus on creative side .btw I wonder why so many greenscreen people back then on the street during oscar , these guys just pushing button with scanned tiger model ohhh .
Jasper Byrne (lone survivor)
Edmund McMillian (super meat boy)
Cactus (hotline miami)
Justin Ma (FTL)
Adam Saltzman (canabalt)
Derek Yu (spelunky)
This is a list of people, off the top of my head, that do some coding and make great art that is well integrated into commercially successful games.
And they're also all indie producers. This pretty much forces them to be well-rounded as they can't just hire legions of artists and coders to work on their respective components whenever they need polishing. Of course this does prove that being well-rounded is good, but I doubt they started that way, they probably had to discover the hard way that it was necessary.
Even though there are some impressive technically skilled artists on Polycount, I can't think of anyone from here who I think makes better art than these guys.
As someone coming from EU to the US, all I know is : I wouldn't work @ Blizzard if I didn't have a Bachelor degree... It's as simple as that. Degrees are such a major leverage when it comes to US immigration. Especially if you aren't a video game rock star. H1B with a proper degree is WAY easier to get than an O1 (if you are, once again, someone who isn't internationally known / unpublished or didn't win any contest).
I completely understand that US student don't want to spend so much money on school where they will barely learn the basics and get into a 15 years debt plan. But for any European junior artist wishing to someday move in the US to work for a cool company : A degree is probably what will make the difference between being able to work there or not. Also, make sure to get a 4 years degree and not a regular 3 years bachelor (like me...), this will also make a difference for your green card application.We are talking about a minimum of 5 years difference (3 years with 4 years degree VS 8 years with a 3 years degree)
Long story short : You aren't getting a degree to learn much, you are getting it to make sure you can work and STAY wherever you want.
The corollary is true for Americans too! Most nations want a BA or higher to enable immigration for high tech jobs.
It's true. I was at one point offered work in US, but couldn't take it simply because I do not have a BSc/BEng. My years of experience counted for nothing without a spurious piece of paper in an unrelated field of academia. GG, US immigration policy.
I studied at a community college in the DC area and Corcoran School of Art for two years combined after that VFS in Canada. I have known people from mica, art institute, emily carr and a few other places I cant recall.
I focused mainly on foundation in my first two years and that really saved me when I came to VFS. I tried for the most cost effective solution and I can say it more or less panned out.
I understand what you mean about technical execution and rendering techniques vs self expression. Things like visual styles and the information that they are generally used to convey can and should be taught along with design and color theory. But what you will do with it depends on your personal growth and perspective line of work.
My problem is that I think originality and exploration should be encouraged when the foundation has been adequately satisfied not the other way around.
Ive met so many people that came from these kinds of programs or diluted 4 year degrees and I thought to myself had they had a stronger more focused program they would have been better off.
What I'd like to say finally is that education doesn't make everything. I have known self taught people who clawed their way to positions and artistic levels that I have yet to reach. That is persistence and drive at its finest. And I have much respect for people who managed this. I have known one who did so with a wife and kids on his back. He gets my official medal of awesomeness.
On visas and degrees, experience generally supplements the lack of degree as far as bureaucracy at least it helped when I worked in Belgium. But whether a studio wants to deal with the process or not depends on the studio.
I was thinking about it pretty hard last night and a few awesome artists from Polycount did came to mind: Rooster, Gauss and Robert Yang (whose screen name I forget, but who I know posts here). There are probably some Polycounters doing cool stuff I don't know about and a couple I may be forgetting right at this moment.
Another thing I was struggling to think of was any AAA company that I knew about that really treated their artists as equal partners. Then I remembered Valve. I haven't worked there or anything, but everything I have heard indicates that the artists at Valve are making important decisions, and I think it really shows in the games.
there is also another tangent that is totally applicable when it comes to interacting with people that is super important. people that go out on a regular basis and have traveled the world usually tend to be way more well rounded, better at communication and not horribly awkward to intereact with unlike some of the people who I have met in this industry who literally spend most of their life in front of a computer and have no real world social experience outside of work and school.
I would much rather work with the 1st type of person, and most of that stuff you really cant learn in a class room. so I would totally add to the post while school is a good idea (never went to any post secondary myself though) traveling and socializing when you are young is super important.
I'm not a great artist by any means, and I wouldn't consider myself "in the industry" yet....but the job I have now is tangentially related to what I hope to do one day. Of the tasks I do on a daily basis, perhaps 20-30% of them are associated with what I learned in school. The rest are things I've had to learn myself, as my education, with a few exceptions, was a waste of money/time. I felt as if I spent 4 years and untold amounts of money for a piece of paper, and not a whole lot more. However, I can't totally discredit the school, as I did take some very valuable lessons away.....I saw what I didn't want to become in many of the people in my classes, and I learned how to take criticism, which has arguably been one of the best lessons I've learned. Had I known what I know now, I would have gone to a community college for 2 years to learn how to read/write/speak effectively (not to say you can't learn those things without schooling), and spent the rest of my time/money on self-teaching myself via all the fantastic resources here on PC and around the internet.
I get so close to recommending people should just skip college/university all together but I always stop short, as there's that social aspect of going to college, living on campus, sharing a confined space with another person that you won't always get along with. I learned so much about how to deal with frustrating people, professors, peers, etc. I definitely feel better equipped to work with many people, of many different creeds, colors, and backgrounds than I would if I had done everything from home.
After reading the op the only thing I can take away is that you had better learn to communicate better REGARDLESS of profession.
A lot of these other disciplines that you say are necessary arent really that relevant unless you want to pursue going into business for yourself. This is a route that many business minded people do so they at least get an understanding of what they are about to get into before taking a very dramatic life altering plunge. And even then this only happens if they dont have or cant find partners to fill in their own knowledge gaps themselves. But to insist that everyone do this in order to become some sort of generalist able to bend over backwards and understand everything is a bit much. How many engineers would do the same? How many business people would do the same? I can understand doing all this as a form of personal enrichment but to demand this to keep up with other disciplines that would not do the same is silly.
The real question is: What you would want from yourself? and then the next question should be: What will it take to get there?
Ninjas, I would go so far as to say that you have developed a firm grasp of who you are and what you want to do with yourself and came to the conclusion that in order to do these things you decided to take on these disciplines or use the things you had already learned but never used, all in order to get to where you want to be. That says a lot more about you as a person that is growing and changing than most would acknowledge with themselves, let alone take the initiative for. But you are at that point now but to demand that from others without them really understanding why is absurd. That said, I rarely post on this site even though I have been on it since forever, but I have seen the shift of great and experienced artists that previously worked in large scale production environments that are now pursuing personal ventures such as yourself and they too have taken the steps you have. People get older, things change, priorities shift and that degree or passion in production art has lessened and the need to do something a bit more fulfilling is apparent. And I can understand the need to take on different disciplines to be more knowledgeable, but the need is there only because the person understands why they are doing it. Again, while I dont refute the need for personal enrichment, its something that should be taken with a bit of understanding as to why you are doing so before taking that plunge in the first place.
[T]o insist that everyone do this in order to become some sort of generalist able to bend over backwards and understand everything is a bit much. How many engineers would do the same? How many business people would do the same? I can understand doing all this as a form of personal enrichment but to demand this to keep up with other disciplines that would not do the same is silly.
The real question is: What you would want from yourself? and then the next question should be: What will it take to get there?
[Y]ou are at that point now but to demand that from others without them really understanding why is absurd. That said, I rarely post on this site even though I have been on it since forever, but I have seen the shift of great and experienced artists that previously worked in large scale production environments that are now pursuing personal ventures such as yourself and they too have taken the steps you have. People get older, things change, priorities shift and that degree or passion in production art has lessened and the need to do something a bit more fulfilling is apparent. And I can understand the need to take on different disciplines to be more knowledgeable, but the need is there only because the person understands why they are doing it. Again, while I dont refute the need for personal enrichment, its something that should be taken with a bit of understanding as to why you are doing so before taking that plunge in the first place.
I think this is a great post. I think all your comments are spot-on. In a lot of ways the OP was just a message to my past/current self. I do have three excuses I would make for myself:
-All anyone can ever really do is tell people the view from where they are.
-I'm tired of playing bad games, and I know Polycount could make better games if we were able to lead projects.
-I selfishly wish there were more artists out there I could relate to.
I went to university to do game animation, while the course didnt really teach me too much about animation or art, i did get a good way to meet like minded people learning at the same time and we grew better together, i also learned how the better programmers worked and spent time learning from them. Because of this i know the basics of how all disicplines work, which is really helpful. Alot of them people went out to work at awesome studios, and are good contacts. The only problem i had was that the academia gets in the way of learning some important skills
Well i must respond to this surprising post. I can tell by the way you think that you didn't take any courses outside your primary subject.
First, it's not true that accountant, administrator or programmer are smarter then 3d artist or any other artist working in the video game industry... I can tell you that most people doing those type of jobs are not the smartest one, the only difference between you and them is that they took a path that's more marketable in "today" jobs market and that's why they fire artist first. All this because you're "expandable" and a lot of people would like to take your place anytime.
Second, its true that having some sort of training in those field is a good thing, but not for the reason you have mentioned. The only thing that those Skills will give you is a more marketable "Resume"...
Third, the type of course that aspiring 3d artist should take first are a BFA in " Illustration" with a strong focus on anatomy and perspective or "traditional animation". After that, they should take a small course covering 3dsmax or any other 3d package. Why, because they are only tools, tools don't make you better at anything, they're just there to assist you...
fourth, its not because you have studied administration that you will land a 65 000 dollar job. You could end up in a junior or administrative assistant job doing stupid paperwork... Even better, thats a job that anyone could land with some experience....
finally, a degree is not a subject specific type of courses, a degree is broad, you see a lot of thing in it and that's why people don't get any good at anything. Its only a broad education. If you want subject specific, take a subject specific course....
Have a great day and stop complaining, you know more then a lot of people and by a lot i mean a lot!!! And when someone mistreat you because of your degree, just tell to yourself that they are the stupid one who are the slave of society and that you're the one that do what he like to do!!!
THEY ARE THE SLAVE'S NOT YOU
But with all this said, the only thing that really matter in the end is talent... but if you have no talent then that's something else...
Sorry if my English is wrong or bad, it is not my native language...
Replies
No, but I did google a little bit and it seems tech artists make about 10K more than regular artists. Any normal pro-level game artist could pick up basic tech artist skills in a couple months if they felt like it.
But really what I'm talking about is learning enough to appreciate what another person's job is. Mutual respect is based on understanding. How are you going to be the boss of people who code if you have no idea what their job is like at all?
People seem to think that when I talk about respect that I think you are getting dissed all day every day. I think it's a given that you don't work with complete assholes who are trying to constantly insult you. What I mean is, would coders or business people be okay with it if an artist was their boss?
So the opposite of sweeping generalizations is to go in to specific detail of every person I know, which would be boring and pointless.
I wouldn't want to work with a coder who made a lot of typos or couldn't spell very well because he would be constantly hunting down bugs in his code that shouldn't exist.
Totally understand. But lets flip the situation to what seems like is the norm nowadays. Business people/people with a coding background are definitely in charge of artists more often than not and depending on the studio know little to nothing about artists and how long it takes to finish an asset which in turn leads to long hours and unneeded crunch. I'm all for mutual understanding but there's give and take on both sides.
I just don't agree with that at all, some folks are just not tech minded, that's why tech artist is a separate job. If it was that easy we would be all doing it.
Inability to spell and programming ability are not mutually exclusive traits.
Also, Intellisense.
I use math about as much as I use all that Chinese I learned in the army. What kind of artist you are is partly shaped by your experiences, and while your suggestions might be right for some people, to say that's what everyone needs to focus on is a pretty huge generalization.
Also, I won the spelling bee.
But art is what I love, I dont do it for money, or pleasing other people within a studio, I just love being creative.
On the other hand, if a studio of tech-artists would be dull then you probably don't have tech artists in your studio but programmers in disguise (generalization alert! but it goes with the thread
Now all this might give a TA a 10k pay hike (I never looked into this myself, just quoting the previous poster), but a regular artist just getting a bit scripting under his belt won't make such a jump. The days of the "script kiddie" TA are mostly over, except maybe for smaller studios, but then again I've seen some pretty sophisticated Unity pipelines in some casual games places....
No not really, being a concept artist is where the ultimate freedom to create is and that's even further along the 'art' end of the art/tech spectrum.
I completely understand that US student don't want to spend so much money on school where they will barely learn the basics and get into a 15 years debt plan. But for any European junior artist wishing to someday move in the US to work for a cool company : A degree is probably what will make the difference between being able to work there or not. Also, make sure to get a 4 years degree and not a regular 3 years bachelor (like me...), this will also make a difference for your green card application.We are talking about a minimum of 5 years difference (3 years with 4 years degree VS 8 years with a 3 years degree)
Long story short : You aren't getting a degree to learn much, you are getting it to make sure you can work and STAY wherever you want.
Edmund McMillian (super meat boy)
Cactus (hotline miami)
Justin Ma (FTL)
Adam Saltzman (canabalt)
Derek Yu (spelunky)
This is a list of people, off the top of my head, that do some coding and make great art that is well integrated into commercially successful games. These games have a lot of heart and meaning -- they're fun and resonate with players. These artists made important design decisions on these games. They all make WAY more money than your average game artist.
Even though there are some impressive technically skilled artists on Polycount, I can't think of anyone from here who I think makes better art than these guys. As a 3D artist, Photo-realistic rocks and bikini girls are kind of impressive because I know they are hard to make, but those are ultimately about as artistic as a beer commercial.
I have basically been unlearning a lot of what I learned on Polycount over the years. I think it's funny that a lot of folks keep harping on one point of learning some math and code, and completely ignore all the other points that would make them a more sensitive artist.
@Ruz I would have agreed that two months was not enough for some folks to pick up basic scripting skills, but in the last year a couple of really amazing resources have been put online.
I know people who have gone from no coding skills to being better than me in around a month using http://www.codecademy.com/tracks/javascript-combined
It's a bit dry though. The Khan Academy stuff actually starts off with simple art, animation and simulation programing https://www.khanacademy.org/cs/tutorials/drawing
I don't actually do any technical art at all, not because I can't, but because I don't care to. The new skills I have spent the last couple years cultivating are how to work faster, how to network with people at trade events (ie, parties), and how to make better narrative and control context in games.
I lot of artists have been striving for the skills to make really realistic characters over the years. I suspect that scanner technology will make all those skills extremely niche fairly soon, like hand-painted textures skills, or hand-animation skills are now.
I've found that as long as you're mature, friendly and professional, you can get along with pretty much anyone. Saying a simple hello to someone when you pass by goes a long way.
Coding is much more about logic than math. When there is math, it's not about knowing the answer to the equation so much as knowing how to solve it. Code is art for programmers. They work just as hard, have their own personal projects, and their own little social circles based on it.
edit: Ninjas, I think you're confusing style with skill. Most artists here focus on realism because that requires the most work. It's the most technically impressive to other artists. Most games however are not realistic. Using a more stylistic approach often saves time and sets your game apart from others visually. That's why vector art is so popular amongst indie developers, it's quick and looks good when done right which, ironically, is a skill in itself but requires far less discipline to achieve.
hmm. I cant really envision any artist looking for work, walking in to the interview room and suddenly start talking like this.
if I had more time I would rather learn fine art and sculp, learn make ups/ prosthetic and cloth design/fashion design.
it would add artist value 10 times fold
I wish too, so we can focus on creative side .btw I wonder why so many greenscreen people back then on the street during oscar , these guys just pushing button with scanned tiger model ohhh .
And they're also all indie producers. This pretty much forces them to be well-rounded as they can't just hire legions of artists and coders to work on their respective components whenever they need polishing. Of course this does prove that being well-rounded is good, but I doubt they started that way, they probably had to discover the hard way that it was necessary.
Great way to disrespect an entire forum!
It is art. It is all subjective. No need to suck up to others if their art is not your thing.
The corollary is true for Americans too! Most nations want a BA or higher to enable immigration for high tech jobs.
I studied at a community college in the DC area and Corcoran School of Art for two years combined after that VFS in Canada. I have known people from mica, art institute, emily carr and a few other places I cant recall.
I focused mainly on foundation in my first two years and that really saved me when I came to VFS. I tried for the most cost effective solution and I can say it more or less panned out.
I understand what you mean about technical execution and rendering techniques vs self expression. Things like visual styles and the information that they are generally used to convey can and should be taught along with design and color theory. But what you will do with it depends on your personal growth and perspective line of work.
My problem is that I think originality and exploration should be encouraged when the foundation has been adequately satisfied not the other way around.
Ive met so many people that came from these kinds of programs or diluted 4 year degrees and I thought to myself had they had a stronger more focused program they would have been better off.
What I'd like to say finally is that education doesn't make everything. I have known self taught people who clawed their way to positions and artistic levels that I have yet to reach. That is persistence and drive at its finest. And I have much respect for people who managed this. I have known one who did so with a wife and kids on his back. He gets my official medal of awesomeness.
On visas and degrees, experience generally supplements the lack of degree as far as bureaucracy at least it helped when I worked in Belgium. But whether a studio wants to deal with the process or not depends on the studio.
I was thinking about it pretty hard last night and a few awesome artists from Polycount did came to mind: Rooster, Gauss and Robert Yang (whose screen name I forget, but who I know posts here). There are probably some Polycounters doing cool stuff I don't know about and a couple I may be forgetting right at this moment.
Another thing I was struggling to think of was any AAA company that I knew about that really treated their artists as equal partners. Then I remembered Valve. I haven't worked there or anything, but everything I have heard indicates that the artists at Valve are making important decisions, and I think it really shows in the games.
I would much rather work with the 1st type of person, and most of that stuff you really cant learn in a class room. so I would totally add to the post while school is a good idea (never went to any post secondary myself though) traveling and socializing when you are young is super important.
I get so close to recommending people should just skip college/university all together but I always stop short, as there's that social aspect of going to college, living on campus, sharing a confined space with another person that you won't always get along with. I learned so much about how to deal with frustrating people, professors, peers, etc. I definitely feel better equipped to work with many people, of many different creeds, colors, and backgrounds than I would if I had done everything from home.
A lot of these other disciplines that you say are necessary arent really that relevant unless you want to pursue going into business for yourself. This is a route that many business minded people do so they at least get an understanding of what they are about to get into before taking a very dramatic life altering plunge. And even then this only happens if they dont have or cant find partners to fill in their own knowledge gaps themselves. But to insist that everyone do this in order to become some sort of generalist able to bend over backwards and understand everything is a bit much. How many engineers would do the same? How many business people would do the same? I can understand doing all this as a form of personal enrichment but to demand this to keep up with other disciplines that would not do the same is silly.
The real question is: What you would want from yourself? and then the next question should be: What will it take to get there?
Ninjas, I would go so far as to say that you have developed a firm grasp of who you are and what you want to do with yourself and came to the conclusion that in order to do these things you decided to take on these disciplines or use the things you had already learned but never used, all in order to get to where you want to be. That says a lot more about you as a person that is growing and changing than most would acknowledge with themselves, let alone take the initiative for. But you are at that point now but to demand that from others without them really understanding why is absurd. That said, I rarely post on this site even though I have been on it since forever, but I have seen the shift of great and experienced artists that previously worked in large scale production environments that are now pursuing personal ventures such as yourself and they too have taken the steps you have. People get older, things change, priorities shift and that degree or passion in production art has lessened and the need to do something a bit more fulfilling is apparent. And I can understand the need to take on different disciplines to be more knowledgeable, but the need is there only because the person understands why they are doing it. Again, while I dont refute the need for personal enrichment, its something that should be taken with a bit of understanding as to why you are doing so before taking that plunge in the first place.
I think this is a great post. I think all your comments are spot-on. In a lot of ways the OP was just a message to my past/current self. I do have three excuses I would make for myself:
-All anyone can ever really do is tell people the view from where they are.
-I'm tired of playing bad games, and I know Polycount could make better games if we were able to lead projects.
-I selfishly wish there were more artists out there I could relate to.
First, it's not true that accountant, administrator or programmer are smarter then 3d artist or any other artist working in the video game industry... I can tell you that most people doing those type of jobs are not the smartest one, the only difference between you and them is that they took a path that's more marketable in "today" jobs market and that's why they fire artist first. All this because you're "expandable" and a lot of people would like to take your place anytime.
Second, its true that having some sort of training in those field is a good thing, but not for the reason you have mentioned. The only thing that those Skills will give you is a more marketable "Resume"...
Third, the type of course that aspiring 3d artist should take first are a BFA in " Illustration" with a strong focus on anatomy and perspective or "traditional animation". After that, they should take a small course covering 3dsmax or any other 3d package. Why, because they are only tools, tools don't make you better at anything, they're just there to assist you...
fourth, its not because you have studied administration that you will land a 65 000 dollar job. You could end up in a junior or administrative assistant job doing stupid paperwork... Even better, thats a job that anyone could land with some experience....
finally, a degree is not a subject specific type of courses, a degree is broad, you see a lot of thing in it and that's why people don't get any good at anything. Its only a broad education. If you want subject specific, take a subject specific course....
Have a great day and stop complaining, you know more then a lot of people and by a lot i mean a lot!!! And when someone mistreat you because of your degree, just tell to yourself that they are the stupid one who are the slave of society and that you're the one that do what he like to do!!!
THEY ARE THE SLAVE'S NOT YOU
But with all this said, the only thing that really matter in the end is talent... but if you have no talent then that's something else...
Sorry if my English is wrong or bad, it is not my native language...