Abundance of talent wasted ?
polycounter lvl 6
Humour me please with this as its just a theory of mine and I am thinking out loud.
There must be literally thousands of talented people across the globe that are busy working there asss off trying to get a foot in the door in the gaming industry. I was part of the music industry many moons ago and it was / is the same story today. Most people who have spent a lot of hard earned cash on there rigs spend the same amount of money on software and will not just pack it up and sell it because there application was rejected by a major game studio, maybe they where not quite ready or there was just not enough wow factor projected from the current work, does this mean a gamer will not like it ?
I have seen many young people go after dreams that have been based around the monetary system and I have also seen a lot of start-ups go down the drain due to the monetary system and if you take a step back and look at what is going on in the financial world it is an unstable destructive system that befits few for a short period of time. I am sure you can agree that the model is failing creativity, the education system is a prime example of this failure. With the tools and capabilities available to many of us I think we all need a reboot and to sit down and start looking for options that are void of the monetary system.
I have seen work on polycount that makes me feel proud to be here and many of you I know are working away on your own for the ultimate goal of a job in the industry but I cant help but wonder that there must be more than this. Its hard to explain but it just reminds me of the music industry, that the goal becomes more important than the actual music is worth (regarding physical money). Its definitely food for thought and even though the global situation is crushing the hell out of talent we do live in one of the most innovative times in human history, the problem is that the old system is dated and has been rendered useless. You cannot grow with austerity measures but yet governments keep pounding the austerity hammer and effectively prolonging the lack of growth, the system is failing miserably.
What would happen if people joined forces to create something different without it being guided by finance ? Would money worm its way into the equation eventually, probably because it would then be classed as having financial value.
I think it is high time that we creative types take matters into own hands because creativity is immune to austerity, creativity just works but the system constricts the hell out of it.
Cheers
Pete
[ame="
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pYBQg4qifU"]The Rolling Stones - Rock And A Hard Place - OFFICIAL PROMO - YouTube[/ame]
There must be literally thousands of talented people across the globe that are busy working there asss off trying to get a foot in the door in the gaming industry. I was part of the music industry many moons ago and it was / is the same story today. Most people who have spent a lot of hard earned cash on there rigs spend the same amount of money on software and will not just pack it up and sell it because there application was rejected by a major game studio, maybe they where not quite ready or there was just not enough wow factor projected from the current work, does this mean a gamer will not like it ?
I have seen many young people go after dreams that have been based around the monetary system and I have also seen a lot of start-ups go down the drain due to the monetary system and if you take a step back and look at what is going on in the financial world it is an unstable destructive system that befits few for a short period of time. I am sure you can agree that the model is failing creativity, the education system is a prime example of this failure. With the tools and capabilities available to many of us I think we all need a reboot and to sit down and start looking for options that are void of the monetary system.
I have seen work on polycount that makes me feel proud to be here and many of you I know are working away on your own for the ultimate goal of a job in the industry but I cant help but wonder that there must be more than this. Its hard to explain but it just reminds me of the music industry, that the goal becomes more important than the actual music is worth (regarding physical money). Its definitely food for thought and even though the global situation is crushing the hell out of talent we do live in one of the most innovative times in human history, the problem is that the old system is dated and has been rendered useless. You cannot grow with austerity measures but yet governments keep pounding the austerity hammer and effectively prolonging the lack of growth, the system is failing miserably.
What would happen if people joined forces to create something different without it being guided by finance ? Would money worm its way into the equation eventually, probably because it would then be classed as having financial value.
I think it is high time that we creative types take matters into own hands because creativity is immune to austerity, creativity just works but the system constricts the hell out of it.
Cheers
Pete
[ame="
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pYBQg4qifU"]The Rolling Stones - Rock And A Hard Place - OFFICIAL PROMO - YouTube[/ame]
Replies
As far as comparing it to the music industry, have you seen how successful individual artsts have been who work outside the record industry? Right now it feels like we have more opportunities rather than less.
There are plenty of collaborations and Mods that don't necessarily make money but those also take more time to create since most people have to focus on their jobs for a good 8 hours a day and then can only work on the project with what free time they have. For some, that may not be much.
Money may not be as much of an issue for a small team of guys to launch through kickstarter but AAA games cost AAA money and you need to have some hefty financial backing. As for money not coming in, that's up to your team. Depending on what platform you're targeting publishing can cost some good money. Also you'll need licenses for all your software. It's a nice thought, but somewhere along the line, you're going to need to pay for something and you're going to have people that feel their time is worth something.
Again it’s just me thinking out loud.
but i believe your idea of removing the money from it will just fail, both industries are very expensive even with free labor due to hardware and software costs, and you really do need to pay people enough to live a comfortable lifestyle if you want them working at there best and most creative. It's hard to work and be creative if your spending 12hours a day at a other job, or if your constantly worried about food and a place to sleep,
Don't let the "abundance" of people wanting to be in this industry fool you into believe that there is an "abundance" of wasted talent. Because truth be told, not every one is a fantastic artist. No matter how much time they spend at it. Some people are just average/ok/bad. It might sound harsh to some, but thats reality. Not everyone who really wants to work in this industry is great. Hell there are plenty of people who are already in this industry that arnt great but somehow just seem to stick around.
Pretty much my thoughts. I know there are people who put in a lot of time into art and never land a paid gig, but not everybody has what it takes to be a professional artist. (I'm talking drive and determination, not talent.)
I wrote a post like this but ended up holding my tongue, I feel the same way. I agree thats its more about drive and determination, and good people will find jobs.
Those people would be assassinated. By the people with the money. If they're not assassinated, their character would be. Because the folks with money can do that.
If they're doing so in the interest of creating something, whatever they create would be vilified.
this is weird conspiracy talk that doesn't make sense - the "people with money" wouldn't be threatened in the same sense that publishers aren't threatened by Kickstarter - even the biggest successes are small potatoes to them.
There are thousands of people slaving away in this industry, some are talented, some are not. Most work on shit games for shit companies. It's no different than any other job, it just pays the bills.
If you love games and want to make great games, do not aspire to get a job in this industry.
Instead you should just make games. By yourself. Go to college and learn something that is useful, like software engineering, you can do this work while you create games in your spare time, and once you have your first success you can do it full time.
That's what I suggest if you love games and want to make good ones. Because in the industry, most likely you will just be another cog.
Currently there is paid work on games that are shipped and sold, and free-time personal projects that are either sold independently or released for free. One of those is for money, and one of those is for love. Are you proposing some third alternative?
I'm wary of anyone suggesting I remove my monetary interest unless they've also removed theirs, and if neither party has a monetary interest, how does that differ from a personal project?
A good point though. Most the people that work for free are either driven to create and have personal stake in a project (whether it be fandom or a personal creation) or they're looking for experience and are trying to pad a portfolio.
If you're working for money you're not the one in control, the person paying you is in control and they may or may not choose to afford you control. At the end of the day I'd say that's more of the problem; talented, hard-working people will get jobs, but that doesn't really mean much if they're just machines for the bottom line.
This thread is close to home for me because I sort of had this conflict maybe a year or two ago as I was working on getting pieces together to apply to 38.
I was trying to come up with pieces that I thought would be appealing for the studio and their style because at that point I was really eager to find employment. It was a pretty depressing time for me, the pieces just weren't what I wanted to be working on in my free time, and for some reason I just wasn't making progress. I sort of had an epiphany about the situation, got rid of what I was working on and moved on to other things, mostly technical things and my own personal projects and experiments that have been great for me but not for jobs. Maybe a half year later the same studio ran into a tremendous financial situation and was all over national news for months. It was almost like a sign, a tangible example of the fleeting nature of money and how crazy and unhealthy it is to make it so important, to give it so much control over your life.
So since then I haven't really pursued anything. Being dependent on a stream of money isn't financial independence. So, figuring that out has become a priority of mine. Obviously anything in this regard is easier said than done, but it's possible and a noble cause.
There's a few projects out there where determined people come together to create art or games. My favorite project is Ultima V Lazarus RPG, which is entirely free and made by amateurs. No, it doesn't look like it's from an AAA studio, but the entire experience of this game comes together so well, it makes quite a few AAA titles with flashier looks look old.
Not saying that the Lazarus crew falls into this scheme, but being rejected, being an amateur, having not industry-standard skills doesn't stop you from making something really awesome if you're just determined enough to do it and make the sacrifices necessary. And if you're lucky, the money follows afterwards.
Now I'm a professional game developer, but even I find it hard to work on personal stuff after work, where I should have so much more experience. I really have a lot of respect for people who're not from within the industry and who still manage to produce awesome art or games, not because they get paid to, but because they love doing it.
There's definitely nobody stopping anyone from wasting their talent. Your talent isn't wasted because you're not in the industry. And if there's something you just love more than art or making games, then it's not wasted either.
Man everytime you post I find myself nodding in agreeance over and over again. Your inside my head im sure of it!
All I can say is.
QFT.
are these guys working on "next gen" games or are you calling people who do "old school" diffuse only work talentless? From all the layoffs and studio closures of AAA studios I've seen, not having those PS2/xbox skills severely limits your job prospects.
What I really find much more distrubing is the incredible amount of great game-art that is showcased here on Polycount on a daily basis and all that happens to it is to rot away on someones portfolio (or harddrive until an accident happens)!
Why not try contribute to open-source games by releasing it under a creative commons license on OpenGameArt.org?
Just read their FAQ to get started: http://opengameart.org/content/faq
Recommended license (by me) would be the CC-by-SA (Share Alike), which ensures you get the proper credit for your work (good promotion for your portfolio too) and that it is used in free, open-source games only.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/
Before reading the entire legality. Do you get any say with how your assets are used?
Another option is to start a co-op company. The head is regularly chosen by staff, and any member can apply. Profit and creative input are more equalized with no overhead of overpriced management. Finally since all employees are owners, there is less slacking off since what each employee contributes effects their income.
Before some capitalist goes on how it won't work. Look up Mondragon Corporation. Also capitalism as promoted these days is actually anti democratic since it is top down.
Now I have to add, that you can't be extremely picky about with project and how it is used exactly (e.g. "but I don't want it reduced in polygons and used in a RTS type of game").
P.S.: Well starting a co-op company is maybe a bit out of scale here, but Mondragon is really an great example how our economy could operate much better and benefit the people, with no crazy ideas like resorting to state run communism or such.
I think there is a lot more emphasis on the goal rather than the individuality of a good produced work, that work is 9 out of 10 times judged along side x work from really talented people and I do not see this as constructive because if you are going to base your abilities on the best your going to get frustrated sooner or later. Of course you ether have the ability to create a decent piece of 3d work or you dont but being really talented does not mean fully competent. Some artists I know will not go near uv mapping for instance (or modelling for that matter) but if they did learn how to do it correctly they are in fact empowering themselves. I guess in recent years the software and graphics technology has made it less of a chore to produce a decent level in the game engine of your choice and everyone wants to have a go, some excel while others struggle. Lets not forget the gods of the industry, programmers / scripters (is that even a word) who very rarely get a mention but their work is invaluable because without them the 3d artists work is rendered useless.
I was hoping that the advances made in graphics technology (hard & soft) that gamers would really benefit from outstanding and unique releases but the opposite seams to be the case. This might be just a transition period but it seams to me that low risk tactics are in place and thats not evolving in my opinion, thats a stagnant pool and the monetary system has a definite influence on this.
Maybe I just expect too much or I am a snob myself but everything just looks the same to me and many people are aspiring to copy & create things that look the same. I request that we have more sick horror games that make your skin crawl and please can modellers and artists just go buck mad and throw caution to the wind, screw the franchise and start with a blank viewport
Thanks for all your replies btw !!!
Cheers :cool:
However, what I do see alot of is a waste of 'internal' and blocking of external talent, people who worked on their portfolio, sound demo, etc, finally get a foot into their respective industry, and are asked to create shoddy work in return due to time constraints, and not viable constraints either, I'm talking about balls to the walls "you only have a day" constraints.
I see plenty of people who have amazing work on their site, awe-inspiring dare I say, better then some of the big-names out there who charge a couple of dozen thousand dollars for a promo-image for the next franchise game, but then you look at a product they put out under a company, and ask yourself what is the point in hiring someone with so much muscle, when they're asking them essentially pick up a needle, to create something that looks rushed and mundane, and doesn't have any polish to it.
It's only vexing on how alot of this talent is not allowed to shine, and it's even more infuriating when other external talent that can be allowed to be grown, either due to internship, experience, etc isn't allowed in, because everyone is busy hiring someone with a name in the first place.
It honestly is abit of a catch-22 cycle, in the media/entertainment industry as a whole, I wish people would grow out of it.
Agree 100% with this :thumbup:
Yeah this too - spot on man. I've always viewed that as perplexing, but it does happen, ive seen it happen time and again because people in lead positions don't have the balls to say no to whomever it was that gave them the order.