Game Art vs Game Programming
Hey all. I'll be going to college in a year and a half (no, this isn't another college thread), and I'm stuck. I love making video games, and I have no doubt that's what my career is going to be. The problem is, I love both game art and game programming. I would be happy doing both, but it seems that you have to pick between one or the other, especially when choosing a college to go to. I know this is primarily an artist's forum, but it would be lying to say there aren't any programmers registered on this forum. What do you guys think about the two? I'm not asking for anyone to chose one for me, but any information about pay, how easy it is to get a job through one or the other, job security (big one), and anything else you guys want to say is very much appreciated!
A little about me:
I'm currently a junior in high school. I'm number one in my class, which doesn't matter so much in the industry, but I can get into almost any college I want to. I've been doing game art for the past 2.5 years. I started with Blender, and, realizing the industry standard was Max/Maya/etc, I'm learning Max. I'm still more proficient in Blender, and I work slower in Max, but it's pretty easy to transfer skills from Blender to 3ds Max. Just gotta practice more.
I started learning Java about the same time as when I started learning Blender. I've moved over to UnrealScript and the UDK, and I know enough to make stuff really happen. There's always more to learn, and I have a long ways to go, but I love it.
A little about me:
I'm currently a junior in high school. I'm number one in my class, which doesn't matter so much in the industry, but I can get into almost any college I want to. I've been doing game art for the past 2.5 years. I started with Blender, and, realizing the industry standard was Max/Maya/etc, I'm learning Max. I'm still more proficient in Blender, and I work slower in Max, but it's pretty easy to transfer skills from Blender to 3ds Max. Just gotta practice more.
I started learning Java about the same time as when I started learning Blender. I've moved over to UnrealScript and the UDK, and I know enough to make stuff really happen. There's always more to learn, and I have a long ways to go, but I love it.
Replies
Ultimately though, you need to decide which it is you prefer doing. You don't want to pick one path only to decide you don't like it, then end up either abandoning what you've learnt and moving on, or retraining for something else entirely.
Do both, and decide for yourself wich one you like to do most.
On the programming side, do some smaller games (blackjack and that sort of stuff) and move over to things as writing small 2D games (mario for example).
If my knowledge of the american school system is correct, you are still young (less then 18), still enough time to expirement and try things out.
In either field you will have to put in a lot of time/effort into "making it in", so if you aren't completely happy doing it, but just doing it for job security (or other similar reasons) it's probably not going to turn out great.
Anyway, I'm tired, and I hope that sort of made sense
EDIT: The interviews Kwramm was talking about. Derped and forgot to add the link
They do art and write code a bit like a wandering cyborg samurai.
Artists fear and respect their technical prowess because they make roadblocks evaporate and find new ways to grease the pipeline that enables artists to be more artistic in a very technical field.
Programers eyeball them oddly for their ability to interpret artist-speak, which to them is normally incoherent dreamer babble about color, shapes, light and some nonsensical thing called a silhouette which for some reason explains their constant overuse of polygons... which they suspect is just lazy artists talk for "I don't want to optimize that". But tech artists can't be trusted by programers because they can typically sniff out lazy programer technical jargon, rendering it powerless. Rendering their efforts to put artists in commas like a snake charmer, null.
Tech artists typically get paid more than your average artists (but less than programers) because they can straddle the gap and bring the two sides together. They often are roles filled by people who love to solve problems and get bored if they have to do mundane tasks day in and day out. Their side projects often lead to pretty significant advancements in tools or boosting the visuals or performance of the game.
It's not uncommon for them to bounce between scripting new modeling tools, helping other artists automate mundane tasks, to doing FX work, rigging up characters and animations. It's handy for an artists to dabble in the dark arts of programing, those people don't get let go easily, unlike the artists who end up needing some kind of technical assistance.
When it comes time to trim staff who are you going to let go;
A) The person who helped pioneer a new way of working, that helped the entire art team by writing 200 lines of code in 30min
Or
And try to stay humble.
(but you can go to school twice)
That being said i would say that becoming a good artist is a far harder skillset than programming. But this is just my experience. I am making full games by myself after 6 months of coding. I wasn't anywhere near that equivalent after 6 months of art.
Using what
But you don't need to make a firm decision at this point. Or any other point, for that matter. Freshman year, take classes in CS and Art. After that, just keep taking whichever classes seem interesting. Eventually you'll graduate with a bit of paper. Doesn't really matter what's written on it.
To be honest, I never really knew working with both game programming and art at the same time was a viable option. That cheers me up a great deal
Haha, I'm loving your description! With a job description like that, who wouldn't want to be a tech artist? :poly121:
I had thought about this before, though I'm still not completely set on which route to go. The more I think about it though, the more it seems to make sense. From all that I have heard, from here and other places, a CS degree is much more valuable than an art degree, and understandably so. I have looked at Digipen, with their mixed CS and art game-based curriculum, considering taking their RTIS CS course with their art courses on the side. I have heard mixed feelings about Digipen though, and it's sooo expensive. I'm not ruling out any options for college, and I'm trying not to get hooked into being set on one.
I'm sorry if I seemed otherwise. I was only trying to explain my situation.
ART-
pro- art more reward visually, quicker feedback from others etc.More easier to quickly present ideas, has a large pull of things you can go into (character, env,technical etc)
cons- higher amounts of competition, higher insecurity job wise, not as well respected as other aspects of development (both pay and prestige when talking to average people,highly dependent to get things done past pretty pictures (in example prototypes of game ideas etc require more effort since you will need a coders help at some point)
Programming
pro- Higher pay, way more job security and flexibility (your not limited to just the game industry for example) More prestige when talking to people, can actually get a product put together or tools put together without being dependent on others.
Cons- Higher amounts of workload(building full parts of games in code/functionality etc) , high amounts of math involved and technical thinking, General frustrations of creating tools but usually cant give a visual return for what you make (AKA programmer art) ,
Honestly Past that I cant think of cons that arent like very "specific" for a coder. via persona wise. (Insecure/hermits/weirdos etc, but the same can be said about artists)
Anyway just my 2 cents. And this is coming from someone who has seen/worked with. People who get highered and fired all the time and being told "its the way of the industry"
Vs having coder friends who are still working the same jobs they started almost 4-5 years ago.
if you like programming also you should try to learn a language that professionals use. you have the time and you should push yourself to lean how to code the way professional programmers learn. scripting in programs is nice but lots of the hard math and code is swept under the rug. its going to hinder your programming when you need to switch to a language like c++, python etc.
do you like math? are you going to take calculus, linear algebra etc? that is the sort of skill you need to really get a grasp of 3d programming. if your not going to take math at that level then you will probably not be ready to do 3d programming at a professional level. you need to think about that seriously.
i also like art and programming. but programming and math is something i learned after getting into 3d art. it is a long hard road. there is a reason why most people do one or the other. it takes a lot of work to get either skill to a professional level. so you might end up doing one side professionally and the grow into a position where you can do both. so if your better at art stick with art and learn c++ on the side. if your a math wiz then learn art on the side.
trying to do both at the same time to the same level might make you ok in both skills but not great in either one. keep that in mind because there is a high level of competition in both fields. and at this point at a lot of studios the term "tech artist" almost means the same thing as "full time programmer" and you need both the math and programming skills in a compiled language like c++ to fill those positions.
I thought exactly that was for 4-5 years before i said fuck it and made a game.
You just have to truly be with it for a few weeks. Whats hard with programming is that you need to understand at least a certain level of stuff before you can write anything, and up until you understand that level it feels futile.
After the first few weeks of hell and reading it gets fun.
Ambershee, I'm programming in an engine called MOAI. It's a c++ engine but all game code is written in lua. I can read c++ i just haven't put the time into learning to write it yet.
I dont think it's anywhere near as difficult as what engine programmers are doing, but the fact is I'm making game logic, writing my own state managers and animation systems, and added stuff to atlas interpreting code as well as writing leader boards hooking up to servers.
So i wouldn't say i am anywhere near pro level in 6 months, but i can definitely make indie games i can sell.
Back on subject I don't think learning both at the same time is terribly productive, you really have to be with the one you choose at first till you hit pro levels, as both are really hard to do. When you hit that level you need to switch gears and focus on the other one with the same amount of vigor for that same amount of time. Though not many people do as they are already working and learning a completely new skill set can feel futile after you already have the one.
I never cared much for math in an academic setting... had to retake vector calculus. But once I got into 3D programming, everything seemed much more approachable. Suddenly the vectors weren't just abstract piles numbers... they were heroes and monsters and rays of light. Context makes a HUGE difference to me: I'm only good at math when I see it as fun.
I do think it's smart for a game artist to take (or at least audit) a CS class in computer graphics programming. Because having some familiarity with the machinery behind the curtain will help you deal with problems down the line, even if you never write a line of code.
If you don't love the prospect of dealing with engineering degree requirements (typically a bunch of additional classes in math and laboratory sciences), look for a school that offers a Computer Science BA, or a similar program. The lighter courseload will give you more flexibility to study different subjects, such as art. (And nobody cares whether a computer scientist has a BS or a BA. We're not licensed engineers.)
the key point here is that he DID take vector calculus an studied CS. i see some artists start programming games with libraries that are made for hobby games. they do not require any real mathematics programming and the level of code is not so deep. do not be fooled into thinking that that sort of programming will get you very far if you have to work in a professional environment where you really do need to know calculus and linear algebra and work 'under the hood'.
that is just a warning for artists who do a little programming and think they have climbed the mountain. that sort of coding is more like a small hill.
Perhaps programming is not "hard", and syntax is certainly the least of your worries. But doing game programming, you will at times deal with very complex problems, especially every time you try to innovate. Game programming is no joke, it is often much more challenging than any other area of software development.
And perhaps contrary to popular belief, you have to be very creative in order to solve some of the problems you encounter.
Regarding digipen, I would avoid for-profit schools categorically. They're all far overpriced. Take a few semesters at a community college, then transfer to a four-year non-profit school. There's no particular advantage to having game-specific classes, as opposed to CS and Art classes. Definitely not worth the pricetag.
Sure, if you have a sufficiently narrow definition of art. (eg. excluding written words or procedural art)
But seriously, all this penis-measurement doesn't address James' question. I'm thinking this thread may have been poorly-titled. Something like "help me choose a course of study" might've been more to the point.
I disagree. Learning both is a great way to start. But I wouldn't expect to "level up" in both skills at the same rate. Chances are you'll find yourself enjoying one activity more. You'll naturally spend more time at it, and inevitably become better at it. But that will happen naturally. There's no need to choose in advance. Just play around.
And even when you find yourself becoming more specialized, having some degree of ability in both disciplines will be invaluable if you want to work on solo experiments and projects.
You can make video games without art. You can make video games with no visual output at all.
They still require code.
On the OP topic ... I've done both so I speak from experience here and I'll say that I find art to be more rewarding but that's a personal thing. You can't do both, at the same time, in a large studio. You'll have to choose as there's just too much to do and you can't spread yourself that thin. As an indie developer, sure, wear both hats - but be prepared for living on zero sleep.
Tech artist sounds like a pretty awesome job, getting to do both! I know I wouldn't fully specialize in either one, but that's not bad if I can do both. Taking computer science classes in college and always practicing art on the side should do it, right? I don't think there's a tech artist "degree," as far as I know, I just need to keep practicing both sides?
Thanks again for all the advice!
Oh no - it's more likely! A lot of studios have a couple of tech artists floating about. Warren's point was more aimed at 'don't expect to be able to both program and do art in the same job unless the studio is really small and you have to fill both roles'. Technical artists in my experience tend to be more programming orientated; for example programmers who specialise in animation would be able to animate, but they'll spend their time programming rather than working with content generation.
A CS related degree is definitely useful for tech artists who want to specialize in tools creation. However I strongly encourage everyone who wants to be a TA to actively create art as well! That's the only way you can put yourself into the shoes of your clients aka the production artists and experience the tools they work with first hand.
I'd also like to mention that tech-art too offers specialization. It's not just all coding. Riggers and VFX artists are also often considered tech-artists, at least in the games industry.
In programing, a degree is very important, but in art, the portfolio is the only important thing.
If you chose art, remember that simply doing the course work is no where near enough.
The truth is that both disciplines require a healthy degree of creativity. It's just that programmers execute their creativity through problem solving, while artists usually execute it through visual expression. The real difference is in the tools. Artists use visual mediums, while programmers use a cerebral medium.
It is actually rather rare for an individual to be gifted in both logical reasoning and visual expression. This is why it is not common for modern games to be produced by individuals. There is usually at least one artist and one programmer collaborating together on a single title.
While it is certainly possible to be trained in both disciplines, don't assume that you will be the best at either. Broadening to learn multiple skills can be useful, but you will always be falling behind those who choose to specialize. While it is a viable path, be prepared for the frustration that this can lead to.
Take it from a games programmer - it really isn't. A good portfolio is just as good.
It comes down to this, you only have one life, and if trough certain circumstances you want to go into art at a later age (and really want to do it, not a spur of the moment thing).
Then why not do it and give it your all, atleast you tried, and you don't have to look back at it later thinking "only if I had tried it".
So it seems kind of weird to basicly go "oh you didn't start drawing at a young age, to bad for you, go do something else".
He probably isn't even 18 yet, and a lot of people don't figure out what they really want to do/love to do untill later on, it happens.
There is already enough discouragement in this type of thing to start with it.
Also kind of disagree with "oh just do programming then" as if that is such an easy thing.
In my opinion it's a field, if you ever want to become good at it (and get into the games industry) you will be spending as much time on it, and it's as hard.
Anyway, sorry if I maybe misenterpreted something in your post.
And just my personal opinion, maybe being still a student and not actually working I might be wrong.
What would a programmer's portfolio consist of? Programs they wrote?
That actually doesn't sound too bad... Plus, at home, I can take all the time I want to and not have to be rushed, as well as having full artistic freedom like you mentioned.
Sorry for the grammar- was written on an iPhone :P
Pretty much. A graphics programmer is likely to have demos of visual effects, an AI programmer demos of AI behaviour.
Good lord no, that would be chaos. There are standards to adhere to, a defined architecture, various procedures to ensure build integrity and you have to bear in mind that other people are working on the same parts of the codebase at the same time. The only freedom you get is in approaching the problem you're trying to solve, and that's what you're hired for.
Render engines, full game engines, tools (editors, exporters, etc), various GitHub projects, web applications, etc. Could be anything really.
BTW: You don't just "write" programs... They are developed. It's not the same thing, you write a few lines of code, but software is something you design and architect and engineer.
It sounds condescending when you phrase it like that.
A concept artist doesn't just doodle.
I've slowly been trying to ditdch my bad programming habits and learn more good programming practices/unit testing (though for the stuff I'm working on is on a strict/established pipeline). On side note, fuck Photoshop scripting :P
I disagree with this. There are many ways to make programming not just looking at lines of code. Shaders, art demos are fun ways to program. Also data visualization is a fun place to do some programming that can flex your art/creative skills.
EDIT: Not sure why this got double posted
Lots of money there these days, if you know what you're doing.
And if you teamed up with another artist/programmer, you could make something really cool.
That's the for profit private school cost - it's pretty sick that kids these days are racking up Ivy League levels of debt for trade school levels of education (you could probably go to Harvard for less with scholarship money)
Yes. I think there is no question about this.
In fact, I think this field of art requires quite a bit of logic, on its own.
Material definition, edge-loops, all that, is not simply artistic; it's creative problem solving. Much like programming.
Our minds are capable of quite a lot, if we care enough about the subjects.