BA Game Design Digipen vs SCAD
polycounter lvl 6
Greetings polycounters! I've been looking around at colleges for a degree in Game Design. I think I've narrowed it down to these two:
Either Digipen: https://www.digipen.edu/academics/degree-programs/ba-game-design/course-sequence/
or SCAD: http://www.scad.edu/interactive-design-and-game-development/
I figure someone on polycount has to have gone to one of these schools, if not the Game Design program specifically. Now I do realize that Digipen is the clear winner as far as experience in the field and job placement go, but in my situation it's a bit more complicated than that. I have absolutely no family or friends in the Washington/West Coast region, but family is only a few hours drive from SCAD (which would make holidays easy). Additionally I'd lose personal contact with my closest friends and love interest(s) by choosing Digipen.
To give you some background, I've focused mainly on 3D art since around 2006, and have been practicing game programming and digital painting for a few years. I've sunk enough hours into 3D that I feel as though I could tackle anything given enough time, but it's not exactly something I'd like to do day in and day out. I feel very driven and am always excited whenever I get to theorize about game mechanics and figure out how to code things (same pleasure for me as completing a challenging puzzle for example). I've made a few game prototypes on my own, but often get discouraged because of the hours I'd have to spend working to finish all the assets and polish everything. So basically, I feel as though game design is a happy medium of all the different things that I love to do, and would be where I best fit. I am confident that I have enough technical skills to be competitive in game art, but I really think game design is something so complex, abstract, and new that it has to be taught by professionals who have extensive experience in the industry (and therefore is a more valuable or enduring position if I were to land a job). 3D art, painting, and programming is something that I've easily picked up outside of formal education, but game design isn't quite a standardized course of study yet. Please correct me if I'm wrong in my assumptions, but it seems like a career that I'd love.
So, anyways, another factor is that SCAD would probably have more scholarship opportunities (I have a good enough SAT score, GPA, and portfolio to expect some). Really IMO, SCAD seems more convenient, and unless someone can convince me that Digipen is somehow good enough to sacrifice my current status and a small fortune, that will remain my choice. Really I'd just like some opinions on either (or whether I should even get such a degree) before I make my final choice. Also if any people in the industry would like to chime in about this position and what kind of promise it holds if any, that would be great! Thanks so much!:)
Either Digipen: https://www.digipen.edu/academics/degree-programs/ba-game-design/course-sequence/
or SCAD: http://www.scad.edu/interactive-design-and-game-development/
I figure someone on polycount has to have gone to one of these schools, if not the Game Design program specifically. Now I do realize that Digipen is the clear winner as far as experience in the field and job placement go, but in my situation it's a bit more complicated than that. I have absolutely no family or friends in the Washington/West Coast region, but family is only a few hours drive from SCAD (which would make holidays easy). Additionally I'd lose personal contact with my closest friends and love interest(s) by choosing Digipen.
To give you some background, I've focused mainly on 3D art since around 2006, and have been practicing game programming and digital painting for a few years. I've sunk enough hours into 3D that I feel as though I could tackle anything given enough time, but it's not exactly something I'd like to do day in and day out. I feel very driven and am always excited whenever I get to theorize about game mechanics and figure out how to code things (same pleasure for me as completing a challenging puzzle for example). I've made a few game prototypes on my own, but often get discouraged because of the hours I'd have to spend working to finish all the assets and polish everything. So basically, I feel as though game design is a happy medium of all the different things that I love to do, and would be where I best fit. I am confident that I have enough technical skills to be competitive in game art, but I really think game design is something so complex, abstract, and new that it has to be taught by professionals who have extensive experience in the industry (and therefore is a more valuable or enduring position if I were to land a job). 3D art, painting, and programming is something that I've easily picked up outside of formal education, but game design isn't quite a standardized course of study yet. Please correct me if I'm wrong in my assumptions, but it seems like a career that I'd love.
So, anyways, another factor is that SCAD would probably have more scholarship opportunities (I have a good enough SAT score, GPA, and portfolio to expect some). Really IMO, SCAD seems more convenient, and unless someone can convince me that Digipen is somehow good enough to sacrifice my current status and a small fortune, that will remain my choice. Really I'd just like some opinions on either (or whether I should even get such a degree) before I make my final choice. Also if any people in the industry would like to chime in about this position and what kind of promise it holds if any, that would be great! Thanks so much!:)
Replies
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108342
Also look for a thread by yours truly..
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1742594
Short answer is Digipens degree isn't recognized by most Unis in the US. Scads is.
I do know many indie devs make games all the time, but they may not have an education in the field (which may be why sometimes they fail on projects). From my point of view, I'd rather not invest months if not years of my time (living meagerly no doubt) to make a game, only for it to crash and burn. Instead, a job at a game company is much more conservative, though it may not pay out as well (and, who knows, my own projects may come along down the line).
Also, it looks as if SCAD's program may have more opportunities besides games, that is, leading the development of other interactive programs, which can only broaden the variety of jobs available (unless they've sacrificed depth for breadth in their program).
And as far as Digipen, do you mean that I wouldn't be able to use transfer credits at all? Or could I possibly study the basics at another, cheaper school, and then transfer the credits in to Digipen (or even Scad for that matter)?
@Barbarian, thanks for the advice. I know designer isn't quite entry level, and I wouldn't expect to get a job from a degree in it alone. For me, the main purpose of the degree is solely skills, contacts, and knowledge about the industry itself.
hi-rez, epic, illfonic, microsoft, and various other studios and companies. Scad does offer a 4 year program where many other schools only offer a two year program. Another great thing about scad is that you have access to many other majors and are able to take classes using electives to explore other majors early on. Say you want to try some visual effects classes or motion media. they are readily available to you. chances are you will change your major or find another are you are interested in and choose to follow that path instead. There were times i was frustrated with scad or my fellow students, but honestly that is going to happen anywhere you go, be it school or work. The department chair for scad is well known in the industry and has worked on various hi profile titles as well so that helps. We regularly had workshops from people like polygoo and other skilled artists. I know for a fact that they still do now. You also have a campus feel and are always within walking distance of downtown Savannah which i can say i honestly miss that.
I recommend scheduling a tour for the school or visiting it on one of its various scad days, where prospective students can come check it out.
Now i will say that a school will only get you so far. It takes a lot of hard work and dedication to really push yourself and get a great portfolio. scad is no slouch in the work that they hand out as I am sure digi-pen isn't either.
Feel free to message me about any questions. OH go for the B.F.A and not the B.A. at scad.
Hopefully some more scaddies will post on here. i know there are some.
I guess my point is that i was very satisfied with my education i got from scad.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/so-you-want-to-be-a-game-designer
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/on-game-schools
Also the total cost of SCAD is $47,465 a year, $200k for a 4 year degree, or 2 small houses, or everything you'd make for your first 4-5 years in a game industry job.
If you really like the coding part or are interested in mechanics more than story then I would also consider a computer science or software engineering degree. Why? In the long run this will give you more than a games degree, which is pretty much useless outside the games industry. It will expose you to algorithms and problem solving strategies and things like artificial intelligence, state machines which are useful to know. Nothing stops you to give your study a game design centric twist by working on personal games (1). They don't need polished art or anything anyway, since design is the focus, not looks - just like in animation reels nobody cares about art.
In many companies game designers come from different backgrounds, such as QA or coding or game-support. Some designers deal with stories - they often have a writing background, but others mostly deal with numbers, math, logic, statistics, huge excel sheets for combat systems and strategy and AI, and this is where a comp sci degree may give you a good background because comp sci covers a lot of these things involved. Plus it might be a much cheaper option than any of the for-profit games schools.
(1) I find Sophie Houlden and Pippin Barr great inspiration. They both hack together games not caring much about art, but just about design. I imagine with some coding skills it should be easy to follow in their footsteps and churn out experimental games where you can try out different game designs.
Read that thread. You will not be able to attend a graduate program at say socal?, (The school that ea backs up, the one started by Disney), with a degree from Digipen. SOcal? SCU? masters in interactive design graduates have created some of the more original work in the industry.
Don't limit yourself with a career school like Digipen which will restrain your ability to branch out.
Sadly, that's just how most schools are these days. But scad does offer a lot of scholarships so that cost can be drastically reduced.
i would suggest something like this
http://www.futurepoly.com/
It's very much like with the art side of games, everyone improves by daily practice as well as heavy trial and error.
The game-design position is a very hard to get to position as there are so few ones in the industry compared to something like an environmental artist, and nearly always are the ones that are hired the ones that have a portfolio of interesting games to show off.
Winning jams and compos will do much more than getting an expensive education, as a _sense_ of gamedesign is almost always learned through trial and error, and by making this tiny fantastic game that everyone just HAS to play you will have made a name of yourself in a way that you will be more easily considered for a game-design job.
The most usual way to get there is very comparable to what an artist would do. Much like the artist gets a traditional art education instead of a game-art one, you would go for a traditional programming education and put your free-time into making games and prototypes as often as you can.
Then there's the realistic scenario of going indie, as nearly all game studios started out that way and the game-designer behind the games in those studios started on their own with no education as a game-designer, just a programmer who wanted to do games.
At 343 I know of 3 other environment artists, not including myself, who went to SCAD. I've also been hearing some great things about Futurepoly.
For what it's worth...
It's roughly equal parts art and game design and if you resent doing either, you're gonna have a bad time. Still, the resources (lectures, library, Cintiq labs...etc) are pretty awesome and the classes are flexible enough to accommodate your goals.
Still, for what it's worth, I've learned far more about game design from jams, books, and gamasutra than I ever have from a class.
Here's another question: if I were to major in Game Design (BFA) at SCAD, could I minor in programming or computer science? As that is something I'm not too strong in at the moment, though I have a basic understanding of it (enough to code simple player controls and triggers etc but AI would be a challenge). Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love producing artwork, writing, and other more creative things for games, but I feel like programming would be something useful as a designer, if anything to help filter out grandiose ideas about game mechanics, as well as a job opportunity if need be.
As far as I know, no, but you get a good amount of free electives and major electives that you can fill up with programming classes. I'd look at the current curriculum, because it changes almost every year. I know a few people that know quite a bit of multiple coding languages and I'm pretty sure they have taken some of the classes. The coding classes I had to take for the Game Design BFA(it might be different now) is a basic C++ class and a Kismet class.
One thing to note about SCAD is you only get out of it what you put into it. You can be a complete slacker and fuck around all 4 years and still graduate with an alright GPA. They got your money, they aren't going to flunk you (at least this was my experience). A lot of my friends who graduated alongside me were surprised when they didn't get something right out of the gate and are still slowly realizing maybe they didn't do enough while there.
Have fun, party, get laid, drink booze ... but remember to also plug away on that portfolio and learn or else it will bite you in the ass.
If I may suggest? Why not look at a State Uni if you want this major/minor ideal. Thats the power of a full Uni, all these very different schools rolled into one.
SCAD is not going to allow this large interdisciplinary cross over you want.
It seems interesting. Is it legit?
Graduated in 2009 and I would say the same thing. This is true about any school though. The ones that paid their dues and worked hard work in the industry now, the ones that slacked off generally didn't make it.
This is a good deal as well http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/subscription/
$500 a year, $40 a month. A normal gnomon or tutorial dvd is around $20-$60 (I'd argue gnomon has some of the better instructors and content) so if you use at least 2 videos a month, its an awesome deal.
Actually scad is an accredited university. and you have access to many many different courses of study. It will also allow interdisciplinary crossover.
As for programming. there are maybe three classes centered around c++ but no full major dedicated to computer science. You can minor in programming at scad. just not major.
And yes Future poly is super legit as ChrisPerr says
I did say they were accredited. Its Digipen that is accredited "poorly". And no, I'm sorry, SCAD is limited to what I am referring to. They do not have a computer science department. Nor a larger range like say Biology, Astronomy, Botany, Law, Business, Psychology, Communication, etc. A full University will allow some "tasting" with electives from most departments if one chooses. It will give him a larger toolbox to work with. Especially say like some Psychology classes, which would be very beneficial to a developer. Fusobotic noted the idea of the major/minor with computer science. SCAD is not set up for such.*
Also, lets be honest, if he goes to an instate Uni wherever he is, it will be cheaper than going to SCAD.
Futurepoly is good, but what he is explaining to us, he wants something more varied, and he wants programming as well as art.
They offer one C++ class, its not awesome. C++ 2 has never been run as no one ever signs up for it. IF YOU WANT PROPER PROGRAMMING DO NOT GO TO SCAD. They seem to think kismet scripting is real life programming. (no offense guys
@Jade Yes I've looked into USC, and they have an excellent program I'm sure, but the location isn't quite what I was looking for, as I don't have any relatives or even acquaintances near there. Plus, cost of living there is pretty high. (I live in Ohio at the moment)
Totally not worth it. I went to SCAD for a semester and unless you go to the Atlanta campus I'd stay the hell away from SCAD. The Savannah area is pretty terrible.
Also, 200k in debt? Hell no that shit ain't worth it, unless you like ridiculously high monthly payments or have rich parents that is the dumbest idea ever.
I dropped out of SCAD and went to Gnomon where I only ended up with about 50k debt and I was done and ready to enter the industry in 2 years. That's how it should be if you're driven and dedicated to what you want to do regardless of the school. Unless you plan on going overseas don't bother with a BA, focus on whatever school will give you the best education but within financial reason.
Don't be dumb, that amount of debt is never a good idea when it comes to working in the games industry if you're going to pay for it yourself. If for some reason you have some insane desire to go to SCAD then take at least a year or two of your fundamental classes (english, math, etc) before you even think of going. That will alone save you at least 80k for what will cost you about $3000-$4000 at a community or state college.
I just hate seeing people $200k in debt and cannot get a job.
1. You get out of it what you put in.You have 4 years to train like Ryu. I learned as much as I could from everybody I could. Sound design, 3d, 2d animation, sculpting club on Sunday, figure drawing on Saturday, helping friend's shoot film projects, etc. Being around like minded people was amazing. I learned more from them than my teachers. These friends are the ones that will recommend you for jobs later*.
2. The debt is serious. The bursar's office has taken many like a thief in the night. Call your ass up out of class if that money ain't right. They never got degrees but they still have the debt. You can learn everything from Gnomon dvds, FuturePoly, Polycount and CGtalk. But you have to train all day everyday. Then you can get a job purely off your bad ass portfolio*
I instantly recognized the "Gnomon touch" in your work. I have to agree. If you are going to spend 50K+ then Gnomon is the place to go. I learned (and suffered) a ton about lighting from Jeremy Engleman's course. I was fortunate to take a workshop from Josh Herman (he did the Iron Man outfits for all the movies). Only three of us finished with completed characters. Tough, but you learn a lot. If you are going to lay down big bucks for education you want a job out of the chute. Working your heiney off and having top notch instructors is the best path to follow if you want to go to school. Alex Alvarez is amazing. That guy can do it all.
In a CS program you will learn principles - such as algorithms, logic, math, AI - which you will not learn in most games or 3D programs, because when it comes to programming they just teach you the tools, such as C++, ActionScript, LUA, etc. Most games programs don't have the time to go very indepth here because they're usually teaching so much else.
From my general gathered knowledge on the internet most people in the game industry from the level/game design side recommend getting a state school computer science degree. This way you understand coding and scripting, you pay a crap load less money, and you have other opportunities if the game industry doesn't work out for you. They also recommend learning and practicing level design and game design on your own, and creating as many games as possible.
Personally I don't think anybody should ever consider paying over 50k TOTAL for a college education, let alone 50k a year. Those are my thoughts, and I wish you good luck no matter what you decide.
Savannah isn't that bad if you stay in the right areas. Atlanta can be just as dangerous.
Also the whole 200k is only if you dont get any assistance or scholarships at all. I ended up going for 4 years and have less than 60k in debt.
That said I would agree with the others that it's completely doable to enter the industry without going to college utilizing eat3d, 3dmotive, futurepoly, gnomon, and other resources that weren't all that available during my college time.
I majored in VFX at SCAD though so I can't necessarily comment on the game major, but I did have a few friends who majored in it. I felt like the curriculum was more intense and motivated me to work harded in VFX. (even though I was looking to be an environment artist).
I'd agree that taking your basic math/science/speech classes at a state or community college would be smarter though.
I think your choice should depend what you want to do. One route isn't really better than another one to end up in the games industry, especially not if you end up doing something you don't like.
Working in games is very exciting, at least from my point of view when compared to other jobs, yet it also is very often also just a 'job' where not every task is glorious or fun. So you want to make sure you enjoy what you're doing.
Game design also gets more specialized and I encountered people who just worked on story (MMO/adventure), mechanics (AI, combat, dialogue, crafting) or actual levels, each of them requiring different skill sets. There's probably more specializations I don't know about.
Some routes are better for entering the industry directly in your 'dream position' than others. For some positions you have to enter the industry as something else before you get the role you want.
Art and coding are two educational routes that usually directly land you either in coding or in the art department. For most other positions you have to work extra, either before joining the industry or afterwards while filling some other role. I imagine if you want to get into design right away then you should be able to present game designs, preferably as playable demos along with design documents. Art should be pretty unimportant for this, because you're demoing the mechanics of your game. I saw some early Plants vs Zombies prototypes at an IGDA meeting here and Popcap said art was the last thing they bothered with. So I imagine being able to code, e.g. in Unity, Flash, and having the skills to also implement advanced mechanics (i.e. as found in strategy or rpgs or MMOs) would be useful. Designers also often work with script languages to implement dialogue, AI and other scripted mechanics.
Other route is writing. But even in a studio with 100s of people there's only few roles for story / dialogue creation. I wouldn't recommend that.
Other route is QA or game-masters/support. Basically people who're very familiar with a game and its mechanics, who eventually move into designer roles because they've shown intricate knowledge of mechanics and how to work with them. I'd say this might be risky too. There were some threads here on Polycount discussing entering the industry via QA.
During my career I've seen fewer people coming from art into game design. If there's artists then they usually moved gradually from environment art to world build to game design/level design. Level design is very concrete and less abstract than e.g. designing mechanics itself. For this an art related education might be more useful than a CS one though. Instead of working with numbers, excel sheets, property sheets etc. you will often work with world building tools (think CryEngine, Unreal) and provided art assets or teamed up with an actual artist.
To directly enter this role you also need to demo some levels you made, e.g. in Unreal. This you should be able to learn in a games program, or if you're a self starter from Gnomon DVDs.
Having said all that, a good art education is just as likely to get you into games as a good CS education. It's just different departments you will end up in.
http://www.raphkoster.com/2012/09/26/mailbag-i-want-to-become-a-designer/
https://plus.google.com/105363132599081141035/posts/Pvo5d9q2ezC
A few game design related links:
http://www.lostgarden.com/
http://ludologyu.com/
http://www.gamedevradio.net/
Start making games:
http://onegameamonth.com/
Prototype -> polish the great ones -> release <-> iterate:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/172326/Video_Create_new_genres_and_stop_wasting_your_life_in_the_clone_factories.php
http://www.lostgarden.com/2010/08/visualizing-creative-process.html
http://mainroach.blogspot.com/2012/11/feeding-iteration-engine.html
http://makegames.tumblr.com/post/1136623767/finishing-a-game
http://makegames.tumblr.com/post/4061040007/the-full-spelunky-on-spelunky
If you do go that route, I recommend going to a local college every night after you're done schooling yourself at home and "fraternize".
I'm pretty bitter about the whole situation still too but mainly because I busted my ass for 5 months straight on a portfolio for admissions at SCAD and I got a measly scholarship compared to overpriveledged girls taking vacation photos that got the maximum amount in scholarships.
Also admissions screwed up my tuition my first semester and I had to take out a credit card to pay for books and art supplies, that sucked lol
You could have taken your anger out on THOSE VERY GIRLS.