Restricted in art
polycounter lvl 6
Do you ever feel restricted in terms of what kind of pieces you create or
how often you can create them? I not talking about the ability to create or the will power to create pieces, I am speaking along the lines of how they will be received by the community and what people will say more so than anything.
"it's too strange"
"I am not sure what it is"
"make a space marine"
"you'll never get hired making that sort of character"
Granted these comments are made people who are usually more into more realistic games or mmo, but it begins to wear on one after awhile. I have a base human mesh that I have created and it seems as though I have just been stuck on it for quite some time, if do this one based on the idea I've concocted I know there are going to be jeers and someone is going to say I will never get hired and I should make it like some game I honestly have never heard of or have any interest in playing.
I wanted to make someone who has moon shaped hair, but I know there is going to be some heat coming my way
So idk folks
how often you can create them? I not talking about the ability to create or the will power to create pieces, I am speaking along the lines of how they will be received by the community and what people will say more so than anything.
"it's too strange"
"I am not sure what it is"
"make a space marine"
"you'll never get hired making that sort of character"
Granted these comments are made people who are usually more into more realistic games or mmo, but it begins to wear on one after awhile. I have a base human mesh that I have created and it seems as though I have just been stuck on it for quite some time, if do this one based on the idea I've concocted I know there are going to be jeers and someone is going to say I will never get hired and I should make it like some game I honestly have never heard of or have any interest in playing.
I wanted to make someone who has moon shaped hair, but I know there is going to be some heat coming my way
So idk folks
Replies
That being said, with he quotes you've used it can also come down to design sense. Something can be strange yet still have good design sense, but something strange with bad design is typically going to be critiqued regardless.
if you indeed get a bunch of negative responses will that be a traumatising experience or what?
i see lot of artists being extremely lazy with the execution and either calling it "stylized" or "sketch". the design may have lot of potential but if not executed well it looks like a pile of shit that anyone could put together in 5 minutes.
It's easy to get caught up in wanting to make a portfolio that is tailored to job getting. (uh dur!) The problem is art often suffers when you're making it because you feel you have to, and not because it's something you're creatively invested it. Quality craftsmanship is quality craftsmanship. Colleagues and I award bonus points when reviewing folios to applicants who show real creativity. It can actually make you stand out from a pack of competent artists showing run of the mill designs in their portfolio.
Now being in a studio and feeling restricted, definitely. Big budget studios don't like to take that sort of risk as it can alienate customers. Artists argue that "new and fresh" designs will stand out and spark interest; while those driving the project will point out all the successful titles using the tried and true (tired and stale?) subject matter or styles. You can argue both sides and provide examples to prove or disprove them. Nod goes to those in control though, it is their call. MOAR MARINE$!!!
Quoted for the truth.
Having a distinct style is NOT a bad thing. However, the only things I've seen you post are all in the same highly abstracted style that looks like it borrows elements from Indian and Cambodian art, anime, and comic books. This isn't a bad thing, but it displays a limited range of both skill and design language. In addition, your characters don't display a strong knowledge or application of anatomy or proportions, they generally have weak silhouettes, and their shape language is muddled.
In short, your work looks like you're stuck in a rut and you don't seem to be doing much to combat that fact.
In addition to the above, I'd like to point out something from the criticisms you've quoted. These all sound like things that someone familiar with the game industry, but not fully in touch with what makes good or bad visuals in video games. As such, you get things like "make a space marine" instead of the much more useful "you should try to make something realistic or in another style." Doing things in various styles is a good exercise because it lets you learn new techniques and ways of working that are applicable to the style you most enjoy working in.
I'm not certain what your goal is with the characters you've made, be it creating a portfolio or simply making some stuff for fun. If you're just doing stuff for fun, that's great. If you want to make a portfolio and get hired to make game art, then you need to recognize an uncomfortable fact about the video game industry in general, and the art side in particular:
Video game artists do not actually make art. They make products.
People who make stuff for video games are doing it so that other people can see it, use it, consume it, and find it interesting and in some way palatable. The game industry is focused on making products to sell, not on making art pieces to hang on a wall in a frame. If you want to be a part of the game industry, you need to be able to make something that other people understand and enjoy.
I've looked at you sketchbook and posts. Your forms are no more funky than other highly stylized paintings and models on this forum.
This.
Skill development
Personal Satisfaction
To show potential employers?
there should be a venn diagram here
All the games I have played have had characters like this, I don't really play the M rated deals or the MMOs folks . I don't get what range either, I made an oni-ish version of myself and something with a girl's figure,, that's range right.
Or does range just mean making rusty things and human ideals . Idk. I always put my best effort forth to make new things, but they always say it's similiar.
Someone even suggested making a character from a game I probably sure that everyone here will say it's similiar .
It's just too much.
It seems as though no matter what I do there is going to be some hate or heat about it, even if I follow there instructions.
Polycount is a great place to learn and honestly, I would not have gotten a job without these guys. Chances are that most all of us here didn't come out of the gate just kicking ass on our art. And that's fine. You need to know though that when we 'give you the heat' it's not to knock you down a peg, but rather to build you up to something better. I've been to plenty of boards before here and when people tell you exactly what you want to hear and critique with kid gloves you're not going to get better, you're going to get comfortable. At that point you may as well hang up your hat.
I have been experimenting with scuplts as of late because I have never completed anything in zbrush, thus for the last couple of months I've been putting my best foot forward to produce some zbrush sketches. Normally I would complete things through the old method, but I just felt that something new had to be done. Also doing things through the old method would reveal my identity.
It's more so that people are trying to get me to go in a different direction and cater to games that I have honestly never heard of or played, don't have any interesting in playing, nor do I have any interest in working for studios who produce such things is what is getting to me more so than anything. If someone said "fix this arm here" or "vary the texture" I really wouldn't have an issue.
Believe me I've tried to do things there way, but more often then not I just look at the screen and say "What the hell am I doing?" I trying to be one of the industry, but this is all wrong
Then nothing gets done for days, and I think about the ideas I could have implemented myself instead of doing that one .
I know for fact that game artists are ones to make products, thus I design the characters as though they were products. I am not sure how much things changed over the years but it seems as though those on this site only seem to be interested in the games that can be modded or anything with guns or woodland fantasy elements. I remember when my stuff was on display a couple of years ago, more kids and those who played light hearted games seem to appreciate it more so .
Having really just become too hard core or what?
from looking at your work i can tell that your anatomy knowledge needs lot of improvement and your craftsmanship needs lot of work. when i use the word anatomy, i am mainly talking about high level shapes, planes, curves for this specific situation.
i could literally take one of your existing characters and polish its anatomy and adjust the curves/shapes for better balance and rhythm to make the character more readable and aesthetically pleasing.
look at at Frederik Storm's works.
http://www.frederikstorm.dk/
his works are very light hearted i would say and still has extreme level of polish. he also have very good grasp on anatomy, flesh/bones weight distribution etc.
Whether you make something light hearted, cartoony, realistic -whatever. It doesn't matter. If it's executed well, I am telling you that people here will enjoy it. As it stands though it feels like you're hiding behind unpolished art in the guise that people's sensibilities are "too hardcore."
The next time you make something why don't you pick a studio or game and say "I'm going to make something that fits with this universe." Then we'll know what you're aiming for and hold you up to a higher standard and you'll know what critiques fall within that style as opposed to a different type of game.
Those people that show a high degree of quality and respect for the basic principles of art generally get good comments. It's not like they are rules trying to tie down artists, its just a set of guidelines that people have suggested over and over again as they find what works and what doesn't.
As for keeping you from being hired well that just makes sense. You get hired because you can do a specific thing that the employer needs you to do. If you don't do that thing, you aren't going to be hired.
Maybe YOU can build a game around YOUR style? But then again if people aren't open to your style then it will probably not be received well...
Maybe the time for your art isn't now. There are plenty of misunderstood artists that die penniless and poor only to have their work discovered and have it rock the art world, just keep in mind that there are plenty that just fade away and no one ever understands their stuff.
It seems to be that you have a choice to make, do do you want to be:
A: An artist true to his vision and never compromise? (Odds are long shot at making it and it would probably only happen after you die).
Or
B: Do you want to be employed in some way. (Hopefully doing something creative and maybe do "your thing" in your spare time and hope it catches on)
If you go A you need to really believe in yourself and your vision, if you don't no one else will.If you go B, at least you'll have some semblance of a normal life and get to work on your vision.
I wonder if you understand the principles of 3D as well as those of 2D, because it doesn't seem like you do. Looking at all your work, and at your portfolio, it all suffers in the same way. And to be honest, I don't quite know why. Sure, it isn't polished or taken very far, but there's something more to it. The designs really just don't work in 3D, at least not so directly as you try to recreate the 2D shapes into forms.
when you are hired, you have no choice but to do what others tell you to.
so don´t limit yourself by beeing concerned how a piece will be received by "the community".
i suppose the critic you receive is mostly aimed at the quality of a piece, and not the design. this is something you can and should definetly work on, but it has nothing to do with a characters desing.
this is just my oppinion though.
It didn't come down to accepted styles, more to doing it properly (anatomy wise for example).
It seems to me that you are comfortable with what you do, at the level that you do it, and don't want to grow and are looking for excuses not to expand your skill set. If that's all you want to do, then great have at it and don't bother with what other people think do or say.
If you want to be a commercial fisherman you need to put down the goldfish net and get yourself a boat. You can't expect everyone else in the commercial fishing industry to think your goldfish net is the best thing in the world and trade in all of their boats.
Idk, that could still be the issue more so. That guy's stuff seems as bit on the flat side to me (well the more recent ones)
Alright then how does one polish works in zbrush?
Is there a final render/lighting/posing thing somewhere that I missing or what?
Also could you bee more specific? I would fix the things if someone told me what they were, idk
praetus
About that thread, it seems as though I was really stumped on that one and no one was really giving the solutions? How did I give up on that one? How do I finish if it seems like I gave up? I am really one with open ears.
As for studios I was thinking of applying to the nintendo booth, the skylander folks, double fine and many others at the gdc this year.
Mark Dygert
I am not sure on that one, I really am doing these ones based on what I see really. I have done real things in the past, but not recently because I don't have a real project. I am trying to improve here, I picked up zbrush and am trying a new work flow, I made a human girl and an oni that's something different right? I am not trying to keep a style though I am just making things and trying to make them look more like things I normally don't do. I do have an idea for a title that I want to work on one day and even a pitch, but that is not till I gain more exp in the biz you know?
Xoliul
I think you have me mixed up with the wrong person. I have no idea who that fellow is.
Finish the Oni - until you have a game ready textured model it isn't finished.
After it's done post it and you'll get critiqued on it, do not reply to any of the critique. Think about it for a few days, analyze the data and apply what you learn to your next model. I suggest you model an existing Nintendo or Skylander concept.
You will need a finished portfolio with game art in it for GDC - you have run out of time to think about it, you have to produce.
Yea I think you just gotta get your head down and make something cool. You got some good points here so take them on board and work hard to improve. I like your current fellow so just work him up as hes got the most potential. A bit more understanding of anatomy will go a long way in making him more believable. Its very important, even in stylised art.
You've listed some studios you would like to work for which is great, but you will soon have to realise that game art is commercial and even in these places you need to follow a style that is not determined by yourself.
good luck dude
Idk, that could still be the issue more so. That guy's stuff seems as bit on the flat side to me (well the more recent ones)
his recent stuffs are actually based on flat illustrations resembling kids drawings. however, majority of his work is opposite of flat and even the recent ones are not flat in general sense. look at this zbrushcentral thread here:
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?83384-Storm-s-zdoodles/page55
Alright then how does one polish works in zbrush?
that is craftsmanship and that comes with lot of practice. there isnt a plugin or a magic brush that will clean up all your work for you right away.
Is there a final render/lighting/posing thing somewhere that I missing or what?
NO, it has nothing to do with rendering.lighting/posing etc. it has everything to do with just the raw quality of the model and texture.
Also could you bee more specific? I would fix the things if someone told me what they were, idk
major issues in your work are:
1. bad anatomy
2. design inconsistency
3. very unpolished modeling/sculpting/texturing (like bad polygon stretching, etc.)
in general your work does not look like it took more than 10-15 minutes to make.
i am hesitant to post any further since i actually think you are Morris Smith and just trolling. so good luck with what every you do next, troll or no troll.
I don't think he's trolling.
Valuemeal, so long as you keep coming back, we'll keep trying to help. Regardless of who you are, or are not. Though honesty is the best policy.
Keep doing work and you'll get better. Just be open.
And yeah, if you want to work for Nintendo, make some Nintendo stuff. Or some Skylanders stuff. It'll be easier for us to critique too, if you work from someone else's concept.
http://www.frederikstorm.dk/images/showreel/boose03.jpg
it's a good idea to start by understanding how to do something like this.
http://www.frederikstorm.dk/images/doodles/doodles02/wireRender02.jpg
people won't be on my case anymore? Would it still be alright if I made strange hair or something of that nature?
No, that's simplifying it too much. If you posted studies of faces and muscles and then people saw a better understanding of anatomy and weight later on in you're work, that would definitely get people off of your back.
I think a good example of rediculous design + grounded art knowledge is Ferg...
http://www.monkeyknifefights.com/per_08.html
http://www.monkeyknifefights.com/per_22.html
http://www.monkeyknifefights.com/per_13.html
I would even say that you don't have to just make realistic studies from scratch, but take your latest work and detail it. Give clothing wrinkles, stitches and texture. Give necks arms and elbows musculature, bone and tension.
It doesn't ahve to be crazy high res; you could have it stylized as long as it gives some sharpness to forms that might be missing it, and adds definition to shapes so the viewer doesn't think "blue blob?", they think "bulbous scarf!" ...or whatever!
I think the way you're looking at your situation as a whole is fundamentally wrong. This isn't going to be a quick fix. This reminds me of when I first started to draw. I had friends tell me my anatomy was bad. My characters faces looked wrong and in my youth and stupidity, do you know what my answer was?
"Well it's anime" or "it's stylized." I made excuses as to not learn proper design or anatomy and I hid for years behind these excuses. It's not a matter of finishing your girl model, it's a matter of finishing it correctly. Now, I know when it comes to style this can be an "Eye of the beholder" situation. Fearian brought up some of Ferg's art in his post which is awesome. looking at his site you can see he completely capable of creating the realistic space marine, but he also just as capable of making a stylized woman boxer or crazy creature and they still look right because the anatomy is there. He understands underlying bone structure and muscle insertions and how they effect the skin.
I hate to tell you this but it could take you months or years of continual practice to step up your art. HOWEVER! what is really going to make the difference is how much effort you put into it and how much you can put your own ego aside to learn.
I don't know if you're Kofouyo and frankly, I don't care, but I am going to use him as an example. When he would post he got more critiques from heavy hitters on this board than I ever have and it is infuriating that he took all of that advice and pissed it to the wind. Myself and many others on these boards would kill for the amount of useful critiques he would get from people. Listen to what people have to tell you. it may not be what you want to hear but you damn well need to listen.
It may happen that you get a job working on something that isn't your favorite thing. You may find yourself on your dream project only to be moved to another team down the road working on something you dislike, but IT'S A JOB. I love fantasy art but I work doing military sims. It doesn't mean I can't work on fantasy art in my spare time and that is exactly what I do.
I feel like I am rambling here so I'll wrap it up. You need to learn fundamentals and quit throwing them off as unnecessary. It's going to take time and practice and you're going to get plenty of critiques so you need to get used to it. Proper anatomy and design does not necessarily mean 'space marine' or 'woodland nymph' but who is to say your job may not require you to make these things one day.
Post of the day.