The Mage! "My first character ever!" [Heavily WIP]

Johan3043

Hello fellas! Aight so i have started to work on my first character ever! I am also new to Zbrush so this is a pretty big project where i have to learn A LOT of new stuff. I hope you guys could give me some critique and tips for character creation!

The character i am working with are a sort of mage'ish female. I am thinking about doing a scene with her using UDK or CryENGINE 3.

Here i will upload the latest version of her head and body!
"UPDATED 2013-05-07"!


This is the reference picture i use for the armor, otherwise i try to resemble the art style "Dishonored" is using.

The reference for the armor are made by the very talented Loish! "www.loish.net"

praetus

You say that you have alot of detail to go, but I think you need to step back and hammer out the basics of your mesh first. I realize it's more of a cartoon look for the basis but you're not matching the concept. The neck is really thick in comparison and the chin is pretty wide as well.

You seem to be stuck right now between what the concept is and what your minds eye is expecting to see. You've put some detail into the nose bridge but in the concept it is merely implied. It's fun to jump into new programs but I feel like you're getting carried away with the multitude of tools available and passing over the fundamentals you'll need to succeed.

Johan3043

praetus wrote: »

You say that you have alot of detail to go, but I think you need to step back and hammer out the basics of your mesh first. I realize it's more of a cartoon look for the basis but you're not matching the concept. The neck is really thick in comparison and the chin is pretty wide as well.

You seem to be stuck right now between what the concept is and what your minds eye is expecting to see. You've put some detail into the nose bridge but in the concept it is merely implied. It's fun to jump into new programs but I feel like you're getting carried away with the multitude of tools available and passing over the fundamentals you'll need to succeed.

I have fixed the chin because i also saw that it was way to wide compared to hers. And yeah i have to fix the neck because i also see that it's way to thick now. Thanks! This is the kind of feedback i want!

And yeah i get a bit carried away, i have now got a awesome tutorial showing how to create a game character from scratch. I post the progress here!

trebor777

Be very careful with the hair as well. You have a very slopy/wavy curve when it should be lot more smoothed overall on the fringe.
SO Maybe try modelling a lowpoly basemesh in max or maya, or whatever equivalent, and then once done with that, go in Zbrush. The advantage of the lowpoly, is because, you have less vertex, you get simpler curves and the silhouette becomes smoother.

As praetus said, if you're following a concept stick to the style you have in it.
IF concept is cartoony, do a cartoony 3D
if it's a realistic one, do a realistic 3D
etc...

I had the same issue when I started Zbrush, being halfway through my game art course, thinking about sculpting everything xD but no. it's not good, it's like when you start to draw, and immediately start your face with the eyes, and then the head shape... it's wrong!

Get good volumes 1st, working on the first levels of subdivision (1-3 "usually" ). Basically, once you can't sculpt the shape you want on the surface, it's time to subdivide.

Final point: Silhouette is Everything! bad silhouette, but awesome detail= bad model.
( Et vu que tu t'appelle Johan, je pense que tu comprends ceci donc, si t'as des questions h

Johan3043

Trebor: Thanks for the feedback! Yeah as i said earlier i have done bairly nothing to the hair and that is just placeholder hair. I will redo it completely later, i just wanted it there because i find women models much uglier without hair haha.

I have redone her pretty much with the tips u fellas gave me in mind, i have made her chin alot smaller and also her neck. I have made her more "Cartoonish" looking but i can't get rid of that "Alien head" look on her. What ever i try with she still kinda looks alienish. Got a good tip for that?



Please keep commenting with feedback and critique! I love to hear what u guys think should be improved!

almighty_gir

work at the lowest subdivisions and define shape. once you get the shape nailed most other things will start to come together on their own.

artquest

It's awesome that you're posting and asking for feedback on your first character, keep that attitude for the rest of your life and it will take you places!

One of the hardest things to get right is stylized anatomy. You wont be able to fully capture this character until you understand the underlying realistic anatomy.

My suggestions are A) make this character a real person(and gather reference of the exact person you want to sculpt), just wearing the outfit depicted in the concept or if you really want to be true to the concept, take a break from this project and sculpt a full body anatomy study.

It's very important to understand what proportions and muscle groups create the shapes of the human face before you start playing with them to create stylized characters.

Johan3043

Thanks for all great feedback! I have redone the shape with a lower subdivision as you guys said and man it was much easier! I think i nailed the shape of her face pretty good on this one!



Artquest: Yeah i have the body kinda ready as i want it to look, i think it fits the concept of her well too! Please let me know what u think "Note that the breasts are kinda squeezed togeather because of the clothes she will wear later.

Soldeus

I think your rushing too fast on your first character, it happens a lot. I'd suggest going slower, make some anatomy studies first,you have to fully understand whats going on under the skin before trying to make an stylized concept like this.

And as someone poointed out before me, start with the lowest subdivision, dont go higher until you see you CAN'T add anything more. This happened to me a lot when starting with zbrush (I'm still on the learning phase) and when I started doing this it really improved my results.

This can turn out really good with your attitude and polycounter's help ^^.

Johan3043

Soldeus wrote: »

I think your rushing too fast on your first character, it happens alot, I'd suggest going slower, make some anatomy studies first,you have to fully understand whats going on under the skin before trying to make an stylized concept like this.

And as someone poointed out before me, start with the lowest subdivision, dont go higher until you see you CAN'T add anything more. This happened to me a lot when starting with zbrush (I'm still on the learning phase) and when I started doing this it really improved my results.

Hope anything I said (which wasn't alot) helps, this can turn out really good with your attitude and polycounter's help ^^.

I am working on it with the lowest subdivision, i just raise it for the screenies so it doesn't look so edgy. Hmm, i don't really think that anatomy is that important when doing a cartoon character. I mostly goes after the anatomy that the concept uses. Could you please specify a bit more what is wrong with the anatomy atm? ^^

almighty_gir

i think you need to analyze the shapes, and style of the character a little more before you say you've got it right...



here's a guide that should show you all the things that are wrong, all the shapes you've got flat, which are angled in the concept, or have defined in the wrong way.

the top arch of the eyelid should be further out, the bottom eyelid should be flatter, the nose should have a v shape and a "button" form, the lips are completely flat when the concept has a really curved shape to them. the chin is way more pointy in the concept. the proportions of the head are also completely off... the eyes are too high and so are the eyebrows, the chin is too low...

Johan3043

almighty_gir wrote: »

i think you need to analyze the shapes, and style of the character a little more before you say you've got it right...



here's a guide that should show you all the things that are wrong, all the shapes you've got flat, which are angled in the concept, or have defined in the wrong way.

the top arch of the eyelid should be further out, the bottom eyelid should be flatter, the nose should have a v shape and a "button" form, the lips are completely flat when the concept has a really curved shape to them. the chin is way more pointy in the concept. the proportions of the head are also completely off... the eyes are too high and so are the eyebrows, the chin is too low...

Thanks for the paint over! It will really come in great use! I didn't meant that i had all the shapes right sorry i should have explained a bit more but i mostly meant the actual shape of the "Head" not the lips, eyes or anything. I know that the eyes, lips and nose are off from the reference and i will reshape them according to your paint over! Thanks again! Hmm, i think i got the chin pretty good shape tho. I mean it is that round and not as pointy as on ye paint over.

It's pretty difficult also because of the pose she have in the reference picture. Some of the shapes on her is because of the pose etc.

And btw just to make sure, i'm not sculpting her in the same pose as she is having! ^^ Therefor my head is differently tilted etc.

Alrighty then, back to work!

theStoff

Looks good so far. It might be nice to see a side view of the face. From this angle everything looks a bit flat. It might be that your face does not have enough depth. I feel the brow could be emphasized a bit more. Another thing would be to step down a couple subdivision levels for a bit. You seem to be getting a lot of creases in areas like the neck. This might be from adjusting the size whilst you were in a subdivision level that was too high. Keep it up.

Dan!

Johan3043 wrote: »

I am working on it with the lowest subdivision, i just raise it for the screenies so it doesn't look so edgy. Hmm, i don't really think that anatomy is that important when doing a cartoon character. I mostly goes after the anatomy that the concept uses. Could you please specify a bit more what is wrong with the anatomy atm? ^^

I think you could benefit from taking a step back and spend some time practicing some basics before you jump into this. Anatomy has everything to do with stylized characters and this quote tells me you are naive to what is being asked of you. I would also suggest not being so defensive- every image doesn't need a disclaimer or an explanation of why you are doing what you you are doing. You have received some good advice so far, I suggest you take it.

Johan3043

Dan! wrote: »

I think you could benefit from taking a step back and spend some time practicing some basics before you jump into this. Anatomy has everything to do with stylized characters and this quote tells me you are naive to what is being asked of you. I would also suggest not being so defensive- every image doesn't need a disclaimer or an explanation of why you are doing what you you are doing. You have received some good advice so far, I suggest you take it.

The reason why i'm defensive is because people are commenting on stuff that im not done yet or haven't even touched on yet :P I take all advices i have gained from here and i have redone many things. As i said the only thing im defensive about are the stuff i haven't even done anything on. I mean like if people complain about the mouth etc. :P

And it's my fault why people are doing it, i have been bad telling u folks which parts i have been working with. So i totally understand why i get critique on those parts.

Thrust me, i read every advice i have gained so far and i have them in mind when i sculpt the character :P That's the reason why im uploading my work in progress here! ^^

Tobbo

Johan3043 wrote: »

The reason why i'm defensive is because people are commenting on stuff that im not done yet or haven't even touched on yet :P I take all advices i have gained from here and i have redone many things. As i said the only thing im defensive about are the stuff i haven't even done anything on. I mean like if people complain about the mouth etc. :P

And it's my fault why people are doing it, i have been bad telling u folks which parts i have been working with. So i totally understand why i get critique on those parts.

Thrust me, i read every advice i have gained so far and i have them in mind when i sculpt the character :P That's the reason why im uploading my work in progress here! ^^

Your posting progress shots like crazy, which I can't really tell too much has been done to them and then getting upset when people start critiquing about stuff that hasn't been touched yet?

Here's another piece of advice.

The organic process for sculpting is different than hard surface work. With hard surface work you might be able to get away with doing one section or part at a time. With organic stuff, you cannot expect to finish one section and then move on to the next. It's better to have the sculpt overall be in the same stage as the rest of it before moving on to different stages. Work from big to small.

Learn this lesson now and save yourself much headache in the future!

Also you DO need to learn anatomy, if you want to have your characters taken even somewhat seriously, even if they are stylized.

Which brings me to another point.

For your first character you really should have tried to make a realistic character first. That way the proportions and anatomy would be as they're supposed to be. You also would have more accurate references to use. Now your fighting an uphill battle of learning CORRECT anatomy, but it's not really correct, because it's stylized.

Another thing. Don't use "but it's stylized" as an excuse. You will never improve with that mentality, because after all it's stylized right?

You see, all you're doing there is making up excuses so you can overlook or skip, the more difficult stuff (Such as anatomy).

Johan3043

Tobbo wrote: »

Your posting progress shots like crazy, which I can't really tell too much has been done to them and then getting upset when people start critiquing about stuff that hasn't been touched yet?

Here's another piece of advice.

The organic process for sculpting is different than hard surface work. With hard surface work you might be able to get away with doing one section or part at a time. With organic stuff, you cannot expect to finish one section and then move on to the next. It's better to have the sculpt overall be in the same stage as the rest of it before moving on to different stages. Work from big to small.

Learn this lesson now and save yourself much headache in the future!

Also you DO need to learn anatomy, if you want to have your characters taken even somewhat seriously, even if they are stylized.

Which brings me to another point.

For your first character you really should have tried to make a realistic character first. That way the proportions and anatomy would be as they're supposed to be. You also would have more accurate references to use. Now your fighting an uphill battle of learning CORRECT anatomy, but it's not really correct, because it's stylized.

Another thing. Don't use "but it's stylized" as an excuse. You will never improve with that mentality, because after all it's stylized right?

You see, all you're doing there is making up excuses so you can overlook or skip, the more difficult stuff (Such as anatomy).

Yeah you are totally right m8 i'm sorry I am way too used to hard surface modelling. I will read up about anatomy and learn to get it correct. I am sorry for my excuses :P I thought u didn't needed to care so much about anatomy if u did a stylized character but yeah after spending alot of time today sculpting on it i now see why it's much better to have knowledge about anatomy.

Thanks for the feedback!

praetus

Johan3043 wrote: »

Thrust me

No thanks, I'm married.

Tobbo here has hit it on the head though. When creating a character, especially, you want to work from big to small. You had mentioned that you were working on the lowest sub-d level which shows me that you don't really know what you're doing. Because you've started at such a high level, it's going to be hard for you to nail out landmarks. Most of the mesh is starting to look somewhat blobby as well as if you're using a combination of the standard and smooth brushes only.

Focus on something like studying anatomy books day and night and doing some figure drawing to really hammer out the basics. With what you have right now, it won't matter how much detail you layer on, if the foundation is shot it isn't going to look right.

Johan3043

praetus wrote: »

No thanks, I'm married.

Tobbo here has hit it on the head though. When creating a character, especially, you want to work from big to small. You had mentioned that you were working on the lowest sub-d level which shows me that you don't really know what you're doing. Because you've started at such a high level, it's going to be hard for you to nail out landmarks. Most of the mesh is starting to look somewhat blobby as well as if you're using a combination of the standard and smooth brushes only.

Focus on something like studying anatomy books day and night and doing some figure drawing to really hammer out the basics. With what you have right now, it won't matter how much detail you layer on, if the foundation is shot it isn't going to look right.

Haha yeah my english fails me sometimes

Yeah i am using only the original brushes and the smooth. God i do so many flaws i never thought was wrong. That's why it's so good that u fellas helps me! I am very great full for all ye fellas comments! ^^

Do you have a brush set or something that u can recommend me?

praetus

Personally I tend to use a nice mixture of 'clay tubes' and 'rake' for fleshing things out initially. Also the move brush of course. The standard brush has it purposes but for initial sculpting it always feels really blobby to me and with out form. Keep in mind that zBrush is like a digital clay. It's actually well worth looking into traditional clay sculpting and trying out workflows from that. Don't be afraid to just start sculpting on a sphere or plane just to try out workflows and brush sets.

Johan3043

praetus wrote: »

Personally I tend to use a nice mixture of 'clay tubes' and 'rake' for fleshing things out initially. Also the move brush of course. The standard brush has it purposes but for initial sculpting it always feels really blobby to me and with out form. Keep in mind that zBrush is like a digital clay. It's actually well worth looking into traditional clay sculpting and trying out workflows from that. Don't be afraid to just start sculpting on a sphere or plane just to try out workflows and brush sets.

Awesome i will check those brushes out, thx! Do you have steam or skype? Would be awesome to have someone to ask questions etc if i stumble upon something that i'm not totally sure at.

Fingus

You can come to the Google+ Hangouts, people there are usually very helpful. We have a sticky in General Discussion that keeps track of the Hangouts as they are being made, just go last page end click the newest link.

Johan3043

Fingus wrote: »

You can come to the Google+ Hangouts, people there are usually very helpful. We have a sticky in General Discussion that keeps track of the Hangouts as they are being made, just go last page end click the newest link.

Thanks for the tip! I will definitely check it out 2mrw!

uncle

Original sculpt reminds me of Arthas... You can always switch subject andmake new thread


Jokes aside, I always found cartoon characters concepts harder to work with. They lack lighting definition whick makes 3d forms ahrder to understand. For start stick with realistic reference, at least that's what I did.
Good luck with your learning!

Johan3043

uncle wrote: »

Original sculpt reminds me of Arthas... You can always switch subject andmake new thread


Jokes aside, I always found cartoon characters concepts harder to work with. They lack lighting definition whick makes 3d forms ahrder to understand. For start stick with realistic reference, at least that's what I did.
Good luck with your learning!

HAHAHA! I think i was a bit off on the first image i uploaded yeah haha. I hope it's closer to the concept now tho in the latest picture! ^^

Johan3043

Alrighty fellas! I have had a little thought and i decided to make her a mixture of that concept picture i provided in the first picture and my own character and also a mix of other pictures i find over the net. So in other words i wont make the face look COMPLETELY like hers and same with the body. I will shape her as i am satisfied with instead of focusing on her looking exactly like another person.

I know some people will tell me that i'm rushing a bit too fast now but i decided to start with the clothing because i am very satisfied with her body and how it looks ATM so i don't believe i will change it for the final result! So yeah i thought why not?

Please take note that this is WIP :P The Corset have alot of details to go and so do all the other clothes. I will add more small details like buttons etc on the shoulders etc! ^^



Man working with characters are so much fun! It's so different compared to hard surface modelling that i'm used to! The shapes etc are so different now!

Johan3043

A small update this time, have been working on other stuff so haven't had so much time working on this project! ^^ But i have worked on the gloves and added some tiny details to the shoulders. I have more things i want to add to the shoulders later. Also been starting to take a look at the boots, wasn't quiet pleased with them tho so i will find a new design to them and redo them from scratch.





Take note that nothing is "Finished" i will add more details to everything so please i love to hear critique and tips on how to improve on her armor pieces

Johan3043

After a long break from this Character i decided to go back and try to finish it up. Lately i have been playing loads of Dishonored and i am totally in love with their art style, so i decided to try to make this character a bit like their style. "Just art style wise not the time period etc..."

I remade the head from scratch and improved on some areas of the body armor.

Parts i yet have to improve are the throat have to increase it's thickness, eye brows are a bit too high, The chin need reworking and maybe lower the nose tip a bit.

Let me know what ye think! And all Feedback are welcome!


This is the art style i am aiming at, and as u might notice it's my main inspiration.

NOTE THIS CHARACTER IS MADE BY ARKANE STUDIOS "Dishonored" AND NOT BY ME!

Torch

Its cool for a first character, but has lot of glaring issues. Right now the facial anatomy is off and your sculpt doesn't really look feminine. The cloth looks blobby and could use a lot of work.

I would personally recommend making this piece just a bust and focusing on really nailing the facial features down instead of trying to make a whole character. Are you using reference with it like images from 3D.sk, etc? Looking forward to more updates

Johan3043

Torch wrote: »

Its cool for a first character, but has lot of glaring issues. Right now the facial anatomy is off and your sculpt doesn't really look feminine. The cloth looks blobby and could use a lot of work.

I would personally recommend making this piece just a bust and focusing on really nailing the facial features down instead of trying to make a whole character. Are you using reference with it like images from 3D.sk, etc? Looking forward to more updates

Thanks for the feedback! The bust idea is interesting haven't thought about that earlier... Might turn it into a bust, will give it some more thought. I had in mind to use this to learn animations etc too

And yes the clothing does look blobby as u say, it's very WIP and i had in mind to take a second sweep on all the clothing. And as u can see alot of details on the armor is missing etc

Mind expanding the comment about the anatomy a bit? Maybe tell me what i can improve etc ^^ Take note that i go for a Dishonored look and their anatomy is pretty different compared to real humans. But yes i agree with you there is much that can be improved. "I typed some stuff i will improve in my last post "

Johan3043

After some amazing critique i received from friends i have now fixed:
* The chin are smaller.
* The throat are now alot wider.
* The back of her head are now more realistic
* Mouth are a not so wide anymore.
* Her eye brows are lower.

Also done some other subtle changes. Feel free to give some feedback! I love getting critique so i can improve on my work

Johan3043

Okay so redid a few more things on her after some new critique.

I think her face are getting close to being finished! Going o start work on some hair soon and then go on and redo the armor to fit the quality of the head!

Let me know what you fellas think! ^^