A. You can't force someone to work with you. Just because you think its in their best interests doesn't mean they agree with you. Without having personal experience with their internal business operations there is no way you can tell them what would or wouldn't be profitable/make sense for them to do.
B. No outsourcing studio is going give you a specific artist or give you that artist's contact information to undercut their own business, this is ridiculous to expect. Ethically this isn't something you should never really ask for.
Every oursourcing studio is going to have trusted, reliable people they go to for sub-contracting work. Expecting a studio to use some random person simply because you demand it is absurd. It is very difficult to get reliable sub-contractors in the first place. If you're going to commission a job to a contracting house, you're leaving it up to them to decide who does the work.
The only real exception here would be if there is a well known artist, or someone you already have a personal relationship working for said outsourcing studio. In that case its completely reasonable to request that artist for specific work. Even then you're not going to get a singular artist to do all of the work.
C. It is his business and he has every right to decide who and who not to do business with.
Now was it silly to ban you? Probably, but should he have been forced to work with you on something he didn't see as feasible, profitable, etc? Absolutely not. So while it sounds like you had a genuinely rough experience here, I think you also need to temper that with having realistic expectations for this sort of thing. In the end I think he would have been better served to simply politely decline your offer.
Are you just making up negative responses for fun?
Not sure why you would even say that stuff. My point here is to let people know about the experience I had there.
Simply responding to your post as I read it. I responded with thoughts from my experiences working both onsite and hiring contract artists, and working professionally as a contract artist. As I said, it seems like you had unrealistic expectations going into it.
Its a one sided story currently so someone needs to play devil's advocate.
If you're not comfortable with how people are going to react to you airing your business publicly, perhaps you shouldn't air your business publicly.
Seriously though, why not ask someone over at polycount to do the job for you? There are a ton of talented and commited people here. Especially for a broad request such as "Dwarves and elves and humans with cool magic armour." People would go nuts! Check out the freelance board.
EDIT: Seeing as you don't like to pay people, I'd suggest not asking for help here.
If into the freelance board you go, only pain will you find.
ejthayer: First off, sorry for your bad experience with that company, I'm sure you are very passionate about your game and you simply want to make it as good as possible.
One of the issues with communicating via text in email or forums is its much more difficult to read a person emotionally and often times people come off as cold or harsh when that is not there intent.
For example, my interpretation of this thread was you were pissed and venting your frustrations here, Earthquake gave you his personal opinion in a nice professional manner, then you get pissed he is not directly agreeing with you.
Again this might not be your intent, but that's how you come off. If I were you I would just forget about it, and not waste any more of your energy on it.
Those are some good quality models. I do in fact need a hero character for a new game I plan on writing. Although Matt decided to post some negative things about me after he made some mistakes I do not pay people in advance. I have had people just take cash and disappear, send me free models they downloaded somewhere else, or do very poor quality work after showing screen shots of really nice 3D models.
I have worked with several graphic artists from this forum and one other I post on. I have spent $1000s on custom 3D model work. It's been my experience that the best way to do it is:
- Agree on a price.
- Get screen shots part way through.
- Get screen shots or just send the final work.
- PayPal the agreed price.
Most of the time I have a good working relationship with the 3D modeler so they are fine with sending models before payment.
Some students have also done their internships with me.
literally every single freelance gig/contract i've had has had some form of up-front payment unless we've already built up a good working relationship and there's some trust already established.
this is something you're unlikely to get from people on polycount now, and bearing in mind that polycounters also visit other forums, you may have a hard time getting it from there as well.
like i said man, that's my offer, take it or leave it.
and now i'll stop whoring myself out on GD and move over to the freelance section!
Those are some good quality models. I do in fact need a hero character for a new game I plan on writing. Although Matt decided to post some negative things about me after he made some mistakes I do not pay people in advance. I have had people just take cash and disappear, send me free models they downloaded somewhere else, or do very poor quality work after showing screen shots of really nice 3D models.
I have worked with several graphic artists from this forum and one other I post on. I have spent $1000s on custom 3D model work. It's been my experience that the best way to do it is:
- Agree on a price.
- Get screen shots part way through.
- Get screen shots or just send the final work.
- PayPal the agreed price.
Most of the time I have a good working relationship with the 3D modeler so they are fine with sending models before payment.
Some students have also done their internships with me.
I never heard of such thing. It's very illogical to work without a contract. You said some Artists took your money and ran off, the same can be said about you. The artist does all the work and then you don't pay in the end. Now that a past dispute has popped up, it's probably best for you and the potential artist to have a contract.
ejthayer - did you at least pay MattQ $200 ? since he sent you the work already the least you can do is pay him what you say you owed him.
soome artists take the money and run away and then there are some clients like yourself who take the work and run away and dont pay up.
also, i read in the thread that you requested revisions to the work he sent you. this should also be emphasized that if the client is not sure what he wants then the artists should always make it clear before starting work and agree on a rate that included specific amount of revisions.
I generally don't work for individuals, it's almost guaranteed you are going to get situations like this. try and do stuff for recognised companies.
ejthayer you really should pay up.
I do not pay for work unless it's properly done. He needs to follow directions. Out of all the people I have worked with from here one person says something bad and somehow I'm the bad guy. Where is the logic in that? I have ALWAYS paid for models if they have been done properly to my specifications. I paid him for the first one, why would I all the sudden start ripping him off on the second? He did a great job on the first one and I wanted him to do more because good people are hard to find. It would be stupid to just suddenly rip him off.
Adri: The same thing should not be said about me, I didn't do that.
Seriously though, this is why contracts are needed. Also, if you were collaborating between e-mails and giving changes and then you asked for the models/flats he made...yeah you owe him some money for them regardless if you ended up using them or not.
- He did great work on the first model.
- He agreed to do a second at the same price.
- Next thing I know he does work I didn't ask for and tries to more than double his price.
- I don't allow that to happen because it was not what we agreed on.
And somehow I'm the bad guy... WTF
I admire your support of a fellow artist, but this was his screw up.
this is what he wrote and according to this you did ask for an upgraded version of the first asset. he also mentions getting approval from you regarding the revisions and additional works he did.
so you are saying that he is not being truthful here ?
He said he had two potential jobs: one being an upgraded version of what I had just done and the other being leather armor for another character class. I told him I'd be happy to do both and sent him concepts, as he asked for, pumping them out quickly so as not to run up the hours and charge any more. He approved but asked for some revisions on the leather, which I did. I modeled some more low poly parts and squeezed them into the UV space and a few days later I sent him images of the textured upgraded characters. It took a few days for him to respond so I spent the meantime working on the two leather armored characters. I send him images of those too and get approval on the upgrades and end up having to do revisions on the leather armored characters. Note: this includes sending him images of the texture flats and multiple images of the textured models.
My logic was that I had done twice the work as last time with maybe three or four extra hours on revisions and concepting. I came up with the low price of $450 for these four characters. Apparently he had been counting on me providing twice the assets at the same flat price of $200. Again I try to be nice about things and drop any additional charge for the extra hours I put in. $400 is my offer on the simple principal of getting paid for two jobs when that's what I've done. Joe argued that he only wanted the leather armor (which he offered to pay me $200 for) and said that he wanted more changes on the other assets. This kind of came out of nowhere since he had previously approved of the assets I as I had shown him and never objected to me doing both jobs as we had seemingly initially agreed upon. Once more I tried to make good and agreed to make revisions free of any additional charges so long as he payed me the $200 he should have. Well it takes him about three days to respond to any given e-mail and it's already close to the end of the month. Sallie Mae doesn't accept polygonal wizard armor as payment so after asking for payment up front and again being met with Joe playing dumb I foolishly went along with sending him the assets before getting paid.
- He did great work on the first model.
- He agreed to do a second at the same price.
- Next thing I know he does work I didn't ask for and tries to more than double his price.
- I don't allow that to happen because it was not what we agreed on.
And somehow I'm the bad guy... WTF
I admire your support of a fellow artist, but this was his screw up.
Except you have no contract, no proof that you did one thing or he did another.
Again this is why you work with contracts, so that you have a legally binding agreement to fall back on. You can find templates for contracts on the internet for free.
Adri: The same thing should not be said about me, I didn't do that.
How is the artist supposed to know that? And vice-versa. Someone's word means nothing today. A contract is written in stone for both parties not to get screwed.
- He did great work on the first model.
- He agreed to do a second at the same price.
- Next thing I know he does work I didn't ask for and tries to more than double his price.
- I don't allow that to happen because it was not what we agreed on.
And somehow I'm the bad guy... WTF
I admire your support of a fellow artist, but this was his screw up.
Defensive are we today. This is the perfect example of why you need a contract.
The only difference between your original post and the replies is Matt Anderson isn't here to defend himself. You were put into the position you were trying to put The 3D Studio in.
Honestly this post is way off topic now and I don't care to be attacked by people here. I will not be coming back to this thread.
You should really work on being more positive with your posts, doesn't this constant negativity get old after a while?
I caught this chump posting the same crap on CGArchitect, so clearly he was out to attack The 3D Studio's name. So now the OP is going to be a crybaby because he can't take what he started.
I caught this chump posting the same crap on CGArchitect, so clearly he was out to attack The 3D Studio's name. So now the OP is going to be a crybaby because he can't take what he started.
He/She is reminding me of Taylor Swift. Writes a "how terrible of a boyfriend you are" song for every guy she's banged. It seems to me this person doesn't take accountability for their own actions.
really even in your own words in the OP ejthayer, you come off as sounding very entitled, especially with the bit about wanting direct contact with a certain artist.
peoples connections are very fragile things, so most people wont risk putting someone they barley know in direct contact with one with out a lot of thought.
also im sure you are not the only customer, so if he no longer wants to deal with you he doesn't have to, thats it. he might have just decided business is easier with other customers.
If Matt has refused to work with you and or banned you from his site - you should consider yourself lucky. Sometimes people have felt dealing with him was like a nightmare... http://www.cgdigest.com/the-3d-studio-com-nightmare/
Replies
A. You can't force someone to work with you. Just because you think its in their best interests doesn't mean they agree with you. Without having personal experience with their internal business operations there is no way you can tell them what would or wouldn't be profitable/make sense for them to do.
B. No outsourcing studio is going give you a specific artist or give you that artist's contact information to undercut their own business, this is ridiculous to expect. Ethically this isn't something you should never really ask for.
Every oursourcing studio is going to have trusted, reliable people they go to for sub-contracting work. Expecting a studio to use some random person simply because you demand it is absurd. It is very difficult to get reliable sub-contractors in the first place. If you're going to commission a job to a contracting house, you're leaving it up to them to decide who does the work.
The only real exception here would be if there is a well known artist, or someone you already have a personal relationship working for said outsourcing studio. In that case its completely reasonable to request that artist for specific work. Even then you're not going to get a singular artist to do all of the work.
C. It is his business and he has every right to decide who and who not to do business with.
Now was it silly to ban you? Probably, but should he have been forced to work with you on something he didn't see as feasible, profitable, etc? Absolutely not. So while it sounds like you had a genuinely rough experience here, I think you also need to temper that with having realistic expectations for this sort of thing. In the end I think he would have been better served to simply politely decline your offer.
B. I have been put in contact with other graphic artists for custom work on other sites several times. You are wrong.
I didn't demand anything, I made a business proposal.
c. Yes that is true.
Are you just making up negative responses for fun?
Not sure why you would even say that stuff. My point here is to let people know about the experience I had there.
Simply responding to your post as I read it. I responded with thoughts from my experiences working both onsite and hiring contract artists, and working professionally as a contract artist. As I said, it seems like you had unrealistic expectations going into it.
Its a one sided story currently so someone needs to play devil's advocate.
If you're not comfortable with how people are going to react to you airing your business publicly, perhaps you shouldn't air your business publicly.
Seriously though, why not ask someone over at polycount to do the job for you? There are a ton of talented and commited people here. Especially for a broad request such as "Dwarves and elves and humans with cool magic armour." People would go nuts! Check out the freelance board.
EDIT: Seeing as you don't like to pay people, I'd suggest not asking for help here.
If into the freelance board you go, only pain will you find.
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103413
Oh ho ho, this is just too good. I remember that thread very clearly.
So, the story begins to unfold...
One of the issues with communicating via text in email or forums is its much more difficult to read a person emotionally and often times people come off as cold or harsh when that is not there intent.
For example, my interpretation of this thread was you were pissed and venting your frustrations here, Earthquake gave you his personal opinion in a nice professional manner, then you get pissed he is not directly agreeing with you.
Again this might not be your intent, but that's how you come off. If I were you I would just forget about it, and not waste any more of your energy on it.
I concur.
EarthQuake said I was doing things that I obviously never said I did. I was not pissed at him, just defending myself.
i charge £35 per hour, i'll do whatever you need me to do, but due to the evidence on this board, i'll have to charge 3/4 up front.
take it or leave it. my portfolio is here:
http://crazyferretstudios.com
I have worked with several graphic artists from this forum and one other I post on. I have spent $1000s on custom 3D model work. It's been my experience that the best way to do it is:
- Agree on a price.
- Get screen shots part way through.
- Get screen shots or just send the final work.
- PayPal the agreed price.
Most of the time I have a good working relationship with the 3D modeler so they are fine with sending models before payment.
Some students have also done their internships with me.
this is something you're unlikely to get from people on polycount now, and bearing in mind that polycounters also visit other forums, you may have a hard time getting it from there as well.
like i said man, that's my offer, take it or leave it.
and now i'll stop whoring myself out on GD and move over to the freelance section!
I never heard of such thing. It's very illogical to work without a contract. You said some Artists took your money and ran off, the same can be said about you. The artist does all the work and then you don't pay in the end. Now that a past dispute has popped up, it's probably best for you and the potential artist to have a contract.
soome artists take the money and run away and then there are some clients like yourself who take the work and run away and dont pay up.
also, i read in the thread that you requested revisions to the work he sent you. this should also be emphasized that if the client is not sure what he wants then the artists should always make it clear before starting work and agree on a rate that included specific amount of revisions.
also a useful quote from that thread:
Adri: The same thing should not be said about me, I didn't do that.
Seriously though, this is why contracts are needed. Also, if you were collaborating between e-mails and giving changes and then you asked for the models/flats he made...yeah you owe him some money for them regardless if you ended up using them or not.
- He did great work on the first model.
- He agreed to do a second at the same price.
- Next thing I know he does work I didn't ask for and tries to more than double his price.
- I don't allow that to happen because it was not what we agreed on.
And somehow I'm the bad guy... WTF
I admire your support of a fellow artist, but this was his screw up.
[ame="
so you are saying that he is not being truthful here ?
Except you have no contract, no proof that you did one thing or he did another.
Again this is why you work with contracts, so that you have a legally binding agreement to fall back on. You can find templates for contracts on the internet for free.
How is the artist supposed to know that? And vice-versa. Someone's word means nothing today. A contract is written in stone for both parties not to get screwed.
Defensive are we today. This is the perfect example of why you need a contract.
You should really work on being more positive with your posts, doesn't this constant negativity get old after a while?
I caught this chump posting the same crap on CGArchitect, so clearly he was out to attack The 3D Studio's name. So now the OP is going to be a crybaby because he can't take what he started.
He/She is reminding me of Taylor Swift. Writes a "how terrible of a boyfriend you are" song for every guy she's banged. It seems to me this person doesn't take accountability for their own actions.
There was nothing a malicious regarding my post.
Also, that Avengers picture is oddly terrifying.
peoples connections are very fragile things, so most people wont risk putting someone they barley know in direct contact with one with out a lot of thought.
also im sure you are not the only customer, so if he no longer wants to deal with you he doesn't have to, thats it. he might have just decided business is easier with other customers.
I posted this in the Become more efficient: Free or nearly free app's & websites to help us do our jobs... thread, but as this seems to be the hot thread of the day and it might be useful for some of you.
Here are some useful sample legal documents/contracts for creative professionals (downloadable as doc and pdf):
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2012...designers-pdf/
This I like.