To lore or not to lore discussion thread
polycounter lvl 18
I am like the most of us enjoying all the creative takes on each character in this contest.
And one discussion that props up in most threads and unfortunately derails them, is the discussion about that set in relation to character lore in DOTA2
Nothing kills a creative boner faster than the words "you can't do that because..."
This contest is all about creativity and I think this should be encouraged instead of strangled at birth.
So if you see a set that in your opinion doesn't fit the lore, let them be! Critique them on their modeling and design but don't start a flamewar about what that person can and can't do.
Maybe if we discuss this topic here it will blow some steam off the kettle, I hope
And one discussion that props up in most threads and unfortunately derails them, is the discussion about that set in relation to character lore in DOTA2
Nothing kills a creative boner faster than the words "you can't do that because..."
This contest is all about creativity and I think this should be encouraged instead of strangled at birth.
So if you see a set that in your opinion doesn't fit the lore, let them be! Critique them on their modeling and design but don't start a flamewar about what that person can and can't do.
Maybe if we discuss this topic here it will blow some steam off the kettle, I hope
This discussion has been closed.
Replies
It's not really an opinion that stuff that is too silly/doesnt fit the lore at all isnt going to get in, and it's not an opinion that if someone makes such things anyways, it's wasted time and talent, no matter how well done the model may be.
Why spend a lot of time making a high quality clown suit for Traxex if the very concept is doomed?
oh neat, this post got accepted now, but now I posted twice. sorry for that.
I think just because something doesn't slot in to the exact lore that exists doesn't mean that it should be entirely dismissed.
However, there's lots of people taking part in this competition who might only have heard about Dota from a friend or are only vaguely familiar with it. That's why we're seeing Heavy Metal Axe designs (not knocking the concept, just unfitting lore-wise). In that case, I think it's your obligation to politely tell them that they might want to reconsider their approach. That's it. If they then want to do it anyways, that's cool. What's not cool is not saying anything because you're afraid they might get offended and that artist wasting a lot of time because they didn't know.
In short: If it's a questionable design lore-wise, tell them and leave it at that. If they want to move forward with it, all power to them.
This.
For me, the words "you can't do that because..." is more of an inspiration to my boners of the mind. It gives a little more challenge to think outside of what I may be used to.
And I don't see anything as having to fit strictly to the existing lore, so much as easily and naturally fitting as a continuation of it. Valve people gotta have something to anchor it to the back story when they write the lore.
Be realistic.
If your design is too silly, it's not going to get in. That's a fact.
If you want to make that clownsuit for Traxex while being aware it's not going to go in, go on, no one will stop you. That's also a fact (I hope so, atleast; shouldnt talk people out of making stuff they want to make)
Now, here's an opinion: That's wasted talent and time.
That's all I can say and feel it's all there needs to be said.
I understand the frustration of some people wanting to keep the lore intact, but this is an artistic competition. I don't think anyone should be limiting their creativity for lore's sake. Any designs that prove to be too outrageous in the context of the Dota 2 universe will be weeded out by Valve at the end anyways.
Let's just keep it fun, as any artistic endeavour should be.
When it comes down to it, there are people making art and people poisoning the community and souring the contest for said artist. I'd rather ban the "lore-nazis" and keep the artists.
Half the time the complaints sound like overly nit-picking superfans that even the Valve writers would groan and face-palm over - this is not the super serious game you think it is.
"Lore-nazis"? Are you serious? People are concerned that their game doesn't get filled with heavy-metal Axes and Clown Pudges that appeal to 12-year-olds. Valve removed a set from the game (Ursa's Alpine Set) because it didn't fit with him at all and looked silly. It was Ursa in a cowboy outfit.
As someone who is moderating this forum, you honestly should try moderating the contests' submissions. This contest is for creating sets that fit the design of DotA 2's characters. Characters have their own lore, backgrounds, and aesthetics. The contest isn't for people to pick a hero and design whatever they please. If you don't understand that, they are simply wasting their time. If someone realizes a design just doesn't fit a hero and won't possibly get in, they should be told. You shouldn't defend them and say "Nah man, make your clown pudge. Let valve decide!"
No one is going to be banned or moderated for commenting on the lore of a particular artists piece. If you think it's not a good design decision to do a heavy metal bow & arrow for someone like Drow Ranger, then by all means mention it, mention why its a potentially bad idea and let the author decide where to take that advice.
The only time the moderators at Polycount will intervene is if you're being disrespectful or outright belittling another member over it. That's not our style here at Polycount - we help each other, not put each other down.
So from here on out, feel free to comment on someones design decisions as you see fit - just don't be dicks to eachother over it.
If you guys see this sort of thing happening - between members, or hell, even if you think a moderator is out of line - feel free to PM me here on Polycount or email me personally at adam[at]polycount.com
I witnessed a user register just to bite the head off of someone for making a medieval witch-hunter type outfit for antimage.
Zenmode: whether it was appropriate or not, I'm not going to argue but Ursa's Alpine set was traditional German clothing that dates back to the middle ages, not a cowboy outfit.
If you see something in the contest that makes you upset just repeat this to yourself: "Are they marring the sacred sanctity of tree weasels?"
That's all well and good, but people are allowed to have their opinions on things, aslong as they can be decent about it.
If someone says "I dont think this fits the game very well" it's very different from "what the fuck that doesnt fit remove your entry".
ps: who went to the cowboy-zones of america in that time? That's right, europeans, obviously. A lot of europeans are germans. Do you see where I'm going? Traditional german clothing isnt that different from traditional cowboy clothing from the same time period. I'd go on and say it's the same.
edit: what spudnik said
I think the reason there have been many complaints, and still are people with this valid complaints, who you often refer to as 'nazi' in some fashion because they critic a piece of art they made shows too much of a childish behavior to be moderating, or running a contest for an actual professional studio.
Let's just assume for a minute that everyone on this forum actually went to an art school. Did you not have your teachers, or peers critic any of your work? Was your instant response to call them a fascist, and completely disregard their opinions?
The complaint about not following the lore is more about having the artist on this forum, making fantastic content for a game most of them either haven't played, or care about. Of course the artist is suppose to create what they want for the heroes, but the lore is basically the source material. These heroes aren't a bunch still life, they a collection of characters with personality, history, and relation to each other. So when someone tries to change a character who turns into a wolf, summons wolves, constantly talks about wolves, howls at the moon in the game, and turns them into a cat it would be silly to not see people upset about something like that regardless of how fantastic the concept art was.
The lore isn't concrete, Valve have been adding flavor text to just about every item they've added to any of their games. Even the ones that don't fit the lore. Included in this picture is two set items, one for Drow, and Omniknight, also is a courier, and a weapon for Axe. Axe isn't only his name it's usually his preferred weapon. In this picture you'll see that valve amended to include a sword with lore for Axe.
Of course there is nothing really to complain about for the three cosmetic items that actually affects any lore, partially because the flavor text amended reasons for the items fitting into the lore. For Axe's weapon there was some minor bickering about why would Axe use a sword. Eventually no one really seemed to notice since Axe has fifteen other weapons, all Axes. 'How many ways can one weapon be redesigned for the same hero?' was a strong case for people accepting it.
If you didn't know Valve recently held a tournament for Dota 2 called 'The International 2'. Valve rented the Benaroya Hall to hold the competition inside.
http://www.dota2.com/international/media/ has some fantastic pictures of all sixteen teams, players, managers, coaches, and fans of the game.
Valve also gave away 1.6 million dollars for the prize pool. Including the production values talked about here.
http://www.joindota.com/en/vods/1680-talkdota-2gd-special-guest
http://www.joindota.com/en/vods/1773-talkdota-sirscoots-special-guest
It's clear Valve is trying very hard to make this one of the best 'E-Sports'. It's not about if anyone thinks it's silly playing video games for a living. There are people that currently do make a living playing this game for a living, even as going as far to move across the world to train with the best players in the world. When people who don't know about Dota get interested and see silly things like a bear dressed in lederhosen, or an undead clown throwing hooks at people, it's a lot harder to take seriously. It seems important to note that also 102,914 people currently playing Dota 2 while typing this post, and a peak of 129,611 today, and the game is still isn't out yet.
adam
I think this would of been better reserved for a pm, but as someone who frequented many different digital art, 2d, and 3d perhaps include a stickied thread on how to properly critic a piece someone is working on.
http://emptyeasel.com/2007/06/18/how-to-give-an-art-critique-constructive-criticism-for-artists/
Also I have received multiple warnings the first simply being
'a large number of complaints about your posts. ... refrain from criticizing people's work based on what you perceive is correct from a lore perspective. Valve will be the judge of what fits or doesn't."
Without any specific posts being cited, only complaints that I offered my criticism.
Another warning for this post.
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1691211&postcount=12
Which I can only assume because I referred the user to hero/lore listing, or used the word 'daunting' with a threat to ban my account.
Justin Meisse
If you really think people registering here to critic work the artists are doing are 'toxic pills' set to poison this competition I seriously recommend taking a few days away from your computer, relax, and just spend some time enjoying the changing of the leaves.
This game might not be super serious for you, or others making cosmetic art assets for, but as I said before Valve is trying to make people being able to support themselves by playing this game.
The problem might be that you aren't the one taking this seriously enough.
Everyone
I'm going to assume this is probably the last post I'm allowed to make on this forum.
With that note, I would like to point out that I, Valve, or the artists involved in this contest don't benefit from people working on this competition being more knowledgeable about the game they're making cosmetics for.
Using the argument that people are using lore to troll, is deflecting actual criticism simply, because you refused to actually look at the source material before you set your pen to paper.
And lastly everyone please read this page about receiving critics.
http://emptyeasel.com/2007/06/10/how-to-handle-artistic-criticism-learning-from-art-critics-artist-critiques/
1) Should people mention that "this might be too silly, or out of character"? Yes, but in a nice manner and then the artist can decide what they want todo.
2) Why is silly/out of character so bad? This one is the one I am struggling with.
DD-best-D's long thurough post really baffles me. The whole logic that this is a serious game, so potential silliness will ruin the emmersion, is just plain weird to me. If i want my character to look retarded, shouldnt that be a freedome I should have? Does that really ruin your fun? This isnt a roleplaying game. You are not having long discussions in the local tavern telling about thou greateth opponenth. It's dota. You play it for 40 mins, then your pizza is done.
Furthermore, you really do not need to lecture people on this forum about e-gaming and games in general. This is a forum of gamers and game artists. And talking about e-games: League of Legends, which have 10million daily active players, and is probably the most watched esport(don't quote me on that, just a feeling looking at the shear amount of tournaments and YouTube videos) has so many ugly/silly/stupid/out of place characters. I honestly don't think the players give a f.
In the end, ofc, thats valve's decision and that is fine. Just don't try to make it sound like it's common logic.
I agree with this calling others Nazis is just plain disrespectful.
But you're not designing items for League of Legends. While the League fanbase might be ok with the funny out of place characters, the dota fanbase clearly isn't.
1. You're ridiculing the game to make it seem like it's not a serious art direction. It is. Even if it's not a roleplaying game, art direction is important. It's not about immersion either, it's about art direction. If a games art direction is really serious, silly stuff likely isnt going to fit. Makes sense, no?
2. If you want your character to look retarded, mod it that way. I dont want to see your retarded looking character in my games.
1. There is a big difference between art direction and lore. You could argue that some of the existing characters are already of silly nature. For example, would you not say Meepo is a much less "serious" character than Nightstalker? Yet, they both fit the art style obviously. That is art direct
In all honesty if some one made a cat shitting on a character as a hat and they pimp it out all fancy and to the style of the game and VALVE allows It into the store (Since it's their game and all) are you going to protest VALVE for doing that? It's their store, their game regardless of LORE/people making a living.
Not that I want to see that kind of a hat but an exaggeration has to be made as an extreme example.
I say let people make what they want balloons and all.
Let (lol..) VALVE allow what they want not the other way around, since in reality anyone QQ-ing over content being made as a concept, in progress or in the store, has absolutely no direct say in what gets in or is taken out.
VALVE has the last say if they want It in, It's in and in reality I see no harm.
Someone has to pay for that item so they must have really wanted it, so anyone can post anything if someone is willing to pay they should be allowed to get whatever they desire.
Side note:
I'm taking requests for the cat idea.
I will say up front that I'm a DotA player who joined this forum purely to provide suggestions/criticisms on the designs for this contest. I'm not the type of person to normally get involved in a contest like this. I'm here because I was on the DotA 2 website and checked out their featured sets for the contest, which resulted in two thoughts:
The first was "Wow. This stuff is amazingly high quality..." The second was "...but at least half of it has no chance of getting in the game." To me, the effort, time, and talent being put into many ideas that will almost certainly be wasted is nothing short of tragic.
Now, I'm not going to defend DD-best-D. However true some of his criticisms may have been, they were made in a rude and condescending tone. That really doesn't help anyone. At the same time, I get the feeling a lot of the great artists here don't quite understand the "lore" criteria (understandably as most are new to the game).
It's not just the quick written story of the characters, it's the feel of the character. Sure you don't play the same hero every time, but they do have deep personalities, which are fleshed out in their abilities, voice acting, strengths, and weaknesses. Their personalities might not all be "serious," but the designs and certainly are, and the art style certainly is. It's one of the main strengths of the game...you can start a game and be done in 40 minutes, but it's still as immersive as an RPG to many people. That's the main reason the DotA community has remained strong even though the original game is almost 10 years old.
I apologize for the long post, but hopefully it can go some way in explaining the point of view of us DotA players new to your community, which in turn might result in even more amazing artwork and ideas.
And I'm sure Valve is able to refuse item that are abusively silly.
Personally I welcome constructive and feedback, and I'm glad if some new members can help me to better understand the background of this game.
I didn't play the game for long and have to say that it's not a game that I played for its universe.
I can understand that it appeal more to some player than some other, but I think that coming on an artist thread with an attitude and pissing on someone's work because they don't know the lore of a game that is still in beta, is not the best way to pass your message and your concern.
This. A Thousand times this. Critique is one thing but bashing someone because they didn't read the lore associated with a character is another thing. You can chime in if you think the item doesn't fit the character but leave it at that, don't insult the artist. It's ultimately their decision what they want to make.
On that note, have you DOTA players thought that maybe these artists are making these sets because they WANT to? Maybe they just want to take part in this contest and have fun and really have no intention or desire to have their item in game. This talk of wasted talent is nonsense. Just because they don't aim to have the item actually in the game its a failure? Please. They just want to make something cool to improve their artistic skills.
And its up to Valve. It's THEIR game not yours so stop acting like it.
1 - Sticking to the lore is probably a smart thing to do, but not required. If the piece is fantastic, high quality, cohesive, and not entirely abstract of anything happening in Dota 2 then your chances of being chosen by the judges are high. That's not to say its impossible to be chosen as a winner otherwise. It ultimately comes down to how fantastic of an item set you've made and whether or not it will work and work well within Dota 2. Valve will decide this, so make what you'd like to make and listen to whichever feedback you'd like.
2 - When giving feedback at Polycount we have a rule: Don't be a dick about it. It's far too easy to get trapped in your own wit when offering feedback and there is no place for. Objective feedback > Subjective feedback and flavouring either of those with a condescending tone doesn't help your cause. So, if you - thats anyone reading this - want to offer feedback to an artist participating in this contest, please, feel free to do so. Just keep it constructive and remember; Don't be a dick.
Now then, back to making badass items for Dota 2.