What do recruiters do that puts you off?
polycounter lvl 14
Just to clear things out, by a recruiter I actually meant any person recruiting for a company be it in-house or... out-house Because "What pisses you off about HR people" seemed a bit wrong for a title. Sorry about the confusion.
Hey there folks.
So I was browsing through my LinkedIn feed the other day and saw a post by a recruiter that basically said "I'm hiring!" and a link to a position description.
For a millionth time I found myself thinking: "Wow, what a crappy way to do this! When a recruiter says that "he's hiring" it feels to me just like an insecure attempt to feel self-important. Obviously it's the company who's hiring and the company who I'm going to work for. Why put yourself upfront? It's not like I would care to work for the recruiter himself."
Might be just a personal preference but it felt like I would reply to an Ad like this only if I had no other options.
And then it hit me: we get some info from time to time on what to do to raise your chances of being hired, but I`ve never seen anything that talks about how to actually make a person want to get hired.
So I got really interested to research this issue.
And there's no better place for industry opinions like home, akhem, I mean Polycount.:D
So what turns you on, guys, what puts you off, during the whole process of being hired or getting a job?
Let's get the ball rolling. We might be able to teach recruiters a thing or two.
Replies
Puts some people in the nasty position of not knowing what to do, especially if it's contracting season.
-Another thing is when they get snarky with the person, and say stuff that in a really unflattering way. I remember one guy complained about how 'all these idiots are sending in their resume, and they didn't bother putting in their names on the document file name itself', and apparently this was causing some extra hassle for him.
It really struck me as odd, since certain little Misc. details like these aren't exactly well known by everyone, especially kids coming out of school and looking for a job, not to mention when researching how to write up stuff to send to a company, the first webpage doesn't exactly tell about these small things.
-Wear other companies T-Shirts, this is weird one, but I have seen many recruiters who instead of wearing normal clothes, or just ones for fun, they go out of their way and wear 'unique' clothes from competing companies, even ones that are currently in market war with similar titles.
Talked to an ex-teacher of mine who used to be a contractor, and found out they do this most of time to give an air of 'being in the industry, in all the right places', which strikes me as odd mentality.
None of these really bother me, but I had many friends who simply didn't like certain things recruiters did, so I might as well chime in with some of their experiences.
...yeah. I'd call out a specific contracting company that I'm thinking of here in my area, but we'll just leave it at that for now.
Then there's the whole bunch of clueless linkedin "googlers". People who have no idea about what you do and what their client wants, who just enter search terms into linkedin in annoy everyone who shows up in the search. Or those recruiters who just want to connect to build their own network so they can annoy you later, even though they don't have any jobs for you when they ask to connect.
Recruiters who don't tell about themselves - if you want me to work with you, especially on linkedin, you want to have a tip-top spellchecked and up-to-date resume there so I know you know your job or else I won't waste time with you. This is twice as important if you're not US/EU based - if you're from China, Phillipines, India, whatever, make even more of an effort to appear professional - there's just this "uh oh, sweatshop country is calling" feel associated with that. I met TONS of clueless Chinese linkedin "googlers" who couldn't even tell the difference between the games industry and the gambling industry. Or sending me mails in Chinese - hello, because I'm IN China doesn't mean I can read Chinese characters - have you even checked my resume??
Now what I like: recruiters who don't spam me with random jobs, but when something really awesome comes along they'll get in tough. Folks who don't promise you high heaven and know how the industry works. People who give you feedback about your work, your resume, and what can help you to get a job they advertise. Folks who keep communication going, unlike the guys to whom you talk once and then you'll never hear from again. People who check your resume and folio (e.g. on linkedin) before talking to you.
I have to add that I got my job via a recruiter, who did a great job during the process, and the job I got is awesome too
how does a person move from one part of the industry to another? for example from mobile to console(or vice versa) or from environments to characters, if the recruiters only look at your past qualifications and not at your current skills?
Hey there Ace, that's a weird one about the shirts for sure, but I definitely met the HR people trying to pretend they know about the industry more then they really do. And, oh my, it shows pretty bad.
Like what a3sthesia said.) I always get the giggles when recruiters, that try to blend in, just tell me that that game was cool and had "sooo many polygons". From some pov it's even cute but when pushed too far reeks with ignorance.
Ged, that's a tricky one. Never thought about that, but I did get an offer for a senior programmer somewhere in El Segundo even though I didn't even ask to switch fields:)
GarageBay9, I feel your pain bro. I walk around with a credit card with a smeared signature for months because the lady in the banks call center won`t understand what I want and in the process will offer me gallons of services I don't care for.
Didn`t know that happens in game recruitment though.
Same thing McGreed, only way down the road. After I`ve done the art test and passed all the interviews the company told me that they reviewed my resume and that I`m applicable for this one sort of visa that I have to wait for the quota to be renewed. The thing, though, was that I wasn`t even remotely applicable for that visa and it showed that the recruiter didn`t even bother to read my resume after all this time. Felt like quite a slap in the face.
A lot of good points, Kwramm, and thanks for including the good stuff. We could use more of that.
The recruiters that are honest about the harsher sides of the industry really call for a lot of respect.
Now I`ve got another one:
When I get a letter with a punchline "Wanna work on a AAA game?" I actually get quite cautious. Trying to cater to professionals ambitions might seem like a good thing, but the older you get the more you realize that the best games aren't necessarily the best games to make. So when a recruiter pimps me the project first, without mentioning the studio, the culture, the people, I'm thinking maybe it's because he has nothing to pimp there. Or because they are just looking for ego-driven people which is not a good thing either.
I mean of course when you get to talk later on you can just ask about this stuff, but to make a first impression, especially on someone seasoned, I would refrain from pushing the AAA project issue. Something like "Wanna join our family?", "Help us continue to make awesome games?", "Contribute to our decade long tradition of working hard and playing hard?", "Become a part of our most badass team of game artists?" and so on, would work much better.
These recruiters were specifically and only 'recruiters', and they had no actual industry experience. The ones I've met were purely management type positions, which seems dangerous when you're supposed to hire people who know what they're doing but don't actually know anything. I guess that makes it reduce down to purely the visual quality of your work/renderings, right??(note to self at the time: break out the renderfarm and photoshop because these people go mainly on impressions)
I asked a simple question along the lines of 'would it be helpful to explain my workflows with my work?' and I was looked at like I was speaking in tongues. Apparently he didn't get what I meant by 'workflow', no big deal, so I explain I'd like to know if I should show the process of how I make certain assets for my portfolio. He responds along the lines of 'oh yeah I've seen someone do something like that before. If you want to do something artsy like that, the guy took a picture every several minutes of work and then put them all in order and it made a timeline. I thought it was pretty cool and different to look at'.
Many little glitches like this in terms of being 'on the same page' were had over the next hour or so.
And thus began my journey, ending any ambition to actually apply or formally work anywhere. I'd work on a farm in Uruguay before I desperately gurgle the cocks of management and deal with petty company social politics (I'm actually not kidding).
There a massive waste of money and the only reason they are so many of them is because they can make big money doing very little. I would go as far to put them in the same category as estate agents.
At the end of the day if your applying for a position and you don't get it then its not because you didn't have a recruiter, its simply because you wasn't what they where looking for.
I also don't understand why people use them, I don't know many people who would just take any job at any company. With so many different studio cultures both good and bad you generally find people focusing on a handful of target studios. Even then its common for people to turn down jobs even at the highest company's when they realize its not really the right place for them.
P.S. I have never used a recruiter and honestly can't see that changing. A lot of my opinions are based on other peoples experiences.
P.S.S. I hate estate agents.
<I call back a week later after receiving no reply>
Me: "Hi, I just wanted to chase up on that job we spoke about last week..."
Recruiter: "Sorry, have we spoken before?"
¬_¬
why anyone would choose to go through such lamers is beyond me.
only times i'd consider that is when a) the studio refers you explicitly to some recruiter for all hiring (e.g. SCEE used to do that) or b) the job involved meant a move way out of my comfort zone (e.g. i'd have not the slightest idea what salary and benefits to ask for when moving to china or somesuch).
As for third party recruiters I'm sort of wary of it. It's always seemed a little scammy, for specific jobs anyway, since if somewhere is hiring for something specific they'd post the position online (which is easy enough to look up). And even if they don't post, you can send your work anyway and they'll at least have you on file if they're interested at a later date. In theory at least.
And I agree with Ace, when they don't even answer, not even an auto response, nothing to say that they actually read our specific cover letter we wrote especially for them...
I often hear friends complain about how often recruiters end up calling their mobile/telephone during the day when they're at work. In some cases I've even heard of recruiters phoning up the reception desk of the company the employee works at.
I remember a while back, one of the (external) recruiters I had on LinkedIn basically said I didn't have enough experience for a Senior role despite being approached for a Lead role at the same company they were recruiting for. They were so quick to shoot me down and were judging me based on my age rather than me/my work and it was really poor.
In terms of internal HR, I had one really bad experience where the HR Manager was pushy and arrogant and only wanted to talk numbers - it felt like I was dealing with a used car salesman.
However, 80% of the time, internal/external recruitment is handled well in my opinion - at least with the companies I've come into contact with
I have been a character artist for like 10 years and am not going to be able to do UI design
so yeha you are trying to please the recruiter and the employer. better off just researching yourself.
The amount of times I get a call from misc who just have no idea what I do or even bothered to have read my cv or even where I'm currently working haha.
One of the big things that bugs a lot of people is the lack of a promised reply.
Just to clear things out, by a recruiter I actually meant any person recruiting for a company be it in-house or... out-house
But yeah it's interesting that there's a lot of stress associated with some of the recruitment people. Must be because there are so many hopes that end up getting crushed pretty tactlessly and unwittingly.
I had a company that I was pretty crazy about and they were interested in me, but their hr messed things up pretty bad so now I got a pretty strong distaste for the whole company. Even though it's pretty unfair: they still pack some good talent and it's not their fault their hr isn't up to par.
imyj, tell me about it, man. Feels pretty irritating when all hr people do is just measure the amount of years in the industry or the amount AAA titles shipped. Never seen anything more unrelated to the actual skill in my life. I think this is one of the places industry really need to grow up and educate it's hr better.
Even for senior positions it's soooo not about the years. I worked with 15+ years in the industry people, who just weren't good artists. It happens. And it's not that uncommon.
I always reply with, "______? Who is ______?" With the other persons name added in lieu of ______.
My current employer is such a studio. I had no idea they even existed, yet they do outsourcing for EA, Disney, Naughty Dog, etc. and offer a really great work environment.
I really wouldn't dismiss recruiters right away, but make sure you feel comfortable with their style and they way they work. If not, forget about them and move on. Don't waste time with crappy recruiters.
Any btw, when they send out newsletters with positions, why the heck do they send out programming and management positions to an artist? Shouldn't they only send out the ones that applies to you (or at least in the proper area).
heh, yeah. i once applied to a company that had a long page describing how they treasure skills the most and encourage people without industry experience to apply. they also stated on another page that they will respond to every application within a week, regardless of whether they're interested or not.
needless to say, the only thing i got back from them was the automatic "we recieved your application" email...
Well I'm a real noob, but I wonder if they actually even look at the portfolio if we mention that we are a junior or inexperienced person in the cover letter. I always feel that they "filter" the candidates, even maybe with some key words. I say that because I noticed that a lot of jobs descriptions use the SAME words, you know like "self-motivated" and all the things. Could be the same with cover letters and resumes, maybe some guy who don't know a darn thing about videogame read them and only keep the ones with the key words ^^.
Blaisoid, lip service
Anyway, tons of interesting info, guys. Now I'll just have to find a way to make some good use of it
How else would you apply to a studio - by carrier pigeon perhaps? :P
But If you have anything to contribute to the subject you're very welcome.
...in Ireland."
¬_¬ Just a short commute to work then...
How things are from my perspective: I personally have a degree in Games Art and specialize in 2D Art, because I know most about it (own about 30+ art books and am a massive fangirl), but I'm not here to BOAST. :P
I've learned how important it is to get back to candidates. Because I'll be honest - I've ignored emails. I've not replied emails. Only for people who's time I'll be wasting. When I don't have a role for someone and I know I won't have a role for them for a very long time, I move on to people who I can help NOW. Later on I probably forget about the other people.
I only give feedback if I'm asked to, because not everyone takes feedback, but I'm really happy to do it.
One thing I would recommend to everyone who's using a recruitment agency: Don't get your hopes up. Especially if you're a junior - you shouldn't expect a lot from us. If you put all your hopes and dreams into a recruiter, you'll be disappointed.
Imagine dealing with 100+ different people in a single day. All different people with different skills for different roles. It's humanly impossible to keep track. I have sticky notes with names ALL OVER my desk.
I hope this helps you guys, as much as you helped me.
THANKS!
j/k I kid, I kid. The fact that a recruiter would even know of Polycount let alone take the time to contribute to this thread is a good sign :thumbup: there may be hope for recruiters yet.
I didn't fly across the country to apply where someone may or may not see my application among the sea of other applications.
2. When recruiting folks butter you up, but the result is failure.
3.When you follow their directions "TO THE TEE" but they say that is not the correct way to draw that one.
I think that's it thus far
(These may have been covered, I haven't read the entire thread.)
1) Most of the time you do end up working for the recruiter's company and they loan you out on different contracts.
So while you can say you worked at XYZ company for 3-9mo, you're checks typically come from ABC Recruiting. If your aim is to stay with them and get shuffled around, thats great. If you want to stay with the company they sent you too, there is normally a fee they have to pay to hire you away from the recruiter. Which I hear happens but not all that often.
I think recruiters can be useful, so long as they know what they are looking for.
2) I had one recruiter cold call me out of the blue once for a "technical animator" position.
He was pretty grateful that I responded and said he was having trouble filling the spot. I had a full time job and what he was offering was a contract, but the IPs were slightly more interesting so I didn't turn him down right away.
After chatting I got the impression he really didn't understand the job description. He was asking very generic questions that didn't really apply to the job and I started to wonder if he was trying to pull a bait and switch for some kind of graphic design position which I had previous experience in and no interest in going back to.
After a while I ended up explaining why its important to be technically inclined for jobs like "technical animator" when he equated writing scripts and tools with digital cameras, that he hated because he was a traditional photography buff. He went off on a mini tirade (but in a friendly way) about auto focus and automatic red eye removal but I was done talking to the guy, I just didn't have any interest in trying to bridge the divide of what I was saying, what he understood and what he needed to tell the person responsible for actually hiring. If I was talking to the actual person hiring, they would have understood perfectly and not wasted anyone's time. I told him I wasn't interested in contract work but if I ever was I'd get in touch.
They need to have some grounding in the job they are tasked with finding people for, if they have no real frame of reference they are just going to be getting in the way. I suspect the people like the guy I talked to don't last long?
Thank you. I'd like to believe that.
I know there are places who practice the same thing as the agency I work at - get people with not so much recruitment experience, but actual experience in the field they'll recruit for. Programmers for programming roles, designers for design roles etc. Or at least a relevant degree.
Most places though are what you're mostly talking about - people with only experience in recruitment who have no interest or whatsoever in games or art. I don't think that's right either.
I don't like talking bad about people, but from my experience going to game expos, conferences and cons - I've seen recruiters go to the game booths and ask questions as (and this is quote) "What's a video card?".
I think the industry's changing though. People like that sooner or later realise that this isn't really the job for them and they move on. Then people who like games and know better come along.
There is hope.
Thanks so much for the insight guys.