Yes, Another Thread on Schools
polycounter lvl 9
Another thread on schools, but for a different reason.
Let me start this off by saying I hate you all like I hate my brother. I love you, but I also hate you.
I thought I had it all figured out, but after reading up on some information on For Profit schools, I've started receiving mixed feelings internally. One side of me really wants to be in game art. Another part of me doesn't want to fail (it's something I'm getting help with now). Anyways, I've been reading and a lot of the advice is tailored to the individual, so I apologize if I'm opening a rift, I just wanted advice for me personally. I taken 2 years of Graphic Art and 1 year of 3D Animation (or 3D modeling persay, the class was little if any animation). Of the 1 year of graphic art and the 1 year of 3D animation, I did these both at community college through a dual enrollment program. I went to a school for Visual and Performing Arts, so I have somewhat of an art background, but majority of my traditional skills are self taught (and still in the process of being self taught). My 3D Animation professor recommended I apply to an in state school, George Mason, with a new Game Design program early on in the year, in fact, he recommended it to the entire class; however, neither he nor I expected that I progress so quickly. After much thought, I decided George Mason wasn't a place for me. I've started to work a lot more traditionally, and I'm enjoying that and would like more guidance on that matter. I'm also starting to lead towards environment art, and I'm enjoying that so much, I want to do it as my career in Game Art. After a month search for schools, I've decided to go with Digipen and their Environment Art/Texturing Tracks. I thought the 2 years of 2D foundation would satisfy my traditional cravings and the 2 years of 3D would give me time to work on a portfolio (my plan was to do the class assignment and iterate on it after I turn it in so it can be a portfolio piece). Due to family issues, etc, I will end up at Mason this year, but I plan on transferring after one year. I've talked with Digipen and they notified me that even if I transfer, I would still need to go for all 4 years (157,000 including food, room and board, personal expenses, supplies). George Mason would be 80,000 with food, room and board, personal expenses, and supplies. Here's the problem though, George Mason's program is still new and thus, I'm essentially a lab rat. Also, during orientation, I was notified that the director was considering moving in a mobile gaming direction. Just for reference, I want to be an Environment Artist at ArenaNet because I like the way they treat their artists. So, now I'm left with my dilemma because PolyCounters have been so passionate against for profit education and even some public/state universities with game design programs. I'm not asking for a school to get my job. I'm not asking a school to teach me what buttons to press. I want a school that will give me the environment to encourage me to work hard.
Some things to note;
- George Mason's Game Design program is somewhat limited on the art side, has a very general focus.
-Digipen's Graphic Art and Animation program is very art focused, limited on the core subjects in their non-artist sense (i.e. A science class is Anatomy, that focuses on the use for art rather than knowing the anatomy).
- GPA: 3.87 SAT: 1680
- Portfolio: http://tyreegiles.carbonmade.com/projects/4346437#1 *This is the portfolio that got me accepted to George Mason University. They responded back to me about 5 days after the interview which was on a Friday*
I've been working on some summer projects, most went flat due to personal problems that I'm working on, but I'm going to show you some screenshots from one that I'm currently working on (and pretty excited about).
Now I ask that you refrain from making general statements, because we can have another 16 page argument on that. In my personal case, what do you think Polycount? Feel free to ask me questions to help better your judgement.
Let me start this off by saying I hate you all like I hate my brother. I love you, but I also hate you.
I thought I had it all figured out, but after reading up on some information on For Profit schools, I've started receiving mixed feelings internally. One side of me really wants to be in game art. Another part of me doesn't want to fail (it's something I'm getting help with now). Anyways, I've been reading and a lot of the advice is tailored to the individual, so I apologize if I'm opening a rift, I just wanted advice for me personally. I taken 2 years of Graphic Art and 1 year of 3D Animation (or 3D modeling persay, the class was little if any animation). Of the 1 year of graphic art and the 1 year of 3D animation, I did these both at community college through a dual enrollment program. I went to a school for Visual and Performing Arts, so I have somewhat of an art background, but majority of my traditional skills are self taught (and still in the process of being self taught). My 3D Animation professor recommended I apply to an in state school, George Mason, with a new Game Design program early on in the year, in fact, he recommended it to the entire class; however, neither he nor I expected that I progress so quickly. After much thought, I decided George Mason wasn't a place for me. I've started to work a lot more traditionally, and I'm enjoying that and would like more guidance on that matter. I'm also starting to lead towards environment art, and I'm enjoying that so much, I want to do it as my career in Game Art. After a month search for schools, I've decided to go with Digipen and their Environment Art/Texturing Tracks. I thought the 2 years of 2D foundation would satisfy my traditional cravings and the 2 years of 3D would give me time to work on a portfolio (my plan was to do the class assignment and iterate on it after I turn it in so it can be a portfolio piece). Due to family issues, etc, I will end up at Mason this year, but I plan on transferring after one year. I've talked with Digipen and they notified me that even if I transfer, I would still need to go for all 4 years (157,000 including food, room and board, personal expenses, supplies). George Mason would be 80,000 with food, room and board, personal expenses, and supplies. Here's the problem though, George Mason's program is still new and thus, I'm essentially a lab rat. Also, during orientation, I was notified that the director was considering moving in a mobile gaming direction. Just for reference, I want to be an Environment Artist at ArenaNet because I like the way they treat their artists. So, now I'm left with my dilemma because PolyCounters have been so passionate against for profit education and even some public/state universities with game design programs. I'm not asking for a school to get my job. I'm not asking a school to teach me what buttons to press. I want a school that will give me the environment to encourage me to work hard.
Some things to note;
- George Mason's Game Design program is somewhat limited on the art side, has a very general focus.
-Digipen's Graphic Art and Animation program is very art focused, limited on the core subjects in their non-artist sense (i.e. A science class is Anatomy, that focuses on the use for art rather than knowing the anatomy).
- GPA: 3.87 SAT: 1680
- Portfolio: http://tyreegiles.carbonmade.com/projects/4346437#1 *This is the portfolio that got me accepted to George Mason University. They responded back to me about 5 days after the interview which was on a Friday*
I've been working on some summer projects, most went flat due to personal problems that I'm working on, but I'm going to show you some screenshots from one that I'm currently working on (and pretty excited about).
Now I ask that you refrain from making general statements, because we can have another 16 page argument on that. In my personal case, what do you think Polycount? Feel free to ask me questions to help better your judgement.
Replies
Take all that money you're going to be spending on school and spend it on DVDs and tutorials. Get a Gnomon subscription ($500) and an Eat3D subscription ($400) and just lock yourself away in your parent's house for 1-2 years. Browse polycount and set your goals to the current working environment artists here, literally soak up every detail in the Polycount wiki about environment art and everything else, it will help you out so much you have no fuckin' idea.
That is by far the cheapest route possible. To further supplement your self-teaching, go back to community college but take classes based on drawing, painting, and other things that will benefit your prospective career as an environment artist. They might be community college classes but that doesn't mean you shouldn't take them REAL FUCKIN SERIOUSLY. Yeah sure your old ass professor might be boring as fuck but chances are he's better than you at doing whatever he's teaching.
Lastly, don't fucking slack. Keep yourself motivated by looking at people's work that are better than you and strive for that standard. Don't look at awesome stuff and resent yourself for not being there yet. The way they got there is by practicing and learning as much as possible to make themselves talented at their craft. If you literally have to disconnect your internet to stop going on reddit or facebook all the time then so be it, save out as much of the polycount wiki and environment art inspiration images from artists you admire and shut the goddamn internet off.
Now's you're time to get serious. Environment Art ain't no joke and the people I know who do it for a living (and are good at it) worked their asses off to get there. Nobody is going to hand you an amazing education on a platter, at least not without a massive amount of debt.
Good luck, I still hate you, but work hard and make me love your art bbgurl.
[size=+14]REAL TALK[/size]
First, the fact that the director of George Mason is talking about moving in a mobile direction throws up a red flag. To me, it means they do not understand that art skills are platform agnostic, and they're probably looking to cash in on the mobile craze that's currently happening. Secondly, it's a brand new program which means it will automatically have growing pains. Not worth the hassle.
For Digipen, that's a huge amount of debt. Like, crippling amount that will follow you around for a long time and possibly make it hard to live on an entry level salary.
I see what you did there! I hate you too!
My 3D teacher was actually my graphic design teacher xd, but yea
I don't want to get personal, but my parent's house isn't an option due to past experiences.
I also want to add something else, I'm pretty bad at self teaching with things I'm not familiar with. For example, I've worked with Max and I know my way around the bush if something goes wrong. I've been working on learning Maya, and I can work for a bit, then I get absolutely lost and don't know what to do. I bought a book and I'll follow a tutorial and the person is like, JUST ROTATE AND TAADAA COMPLETED 30K POLY MODEL. I don't understand anything at all. I've also picked up mudbox recently, and don't get me started on not knowing what I am doing.
Getting subscriptions for those items isn't a possiblity. I have no money. My education is funded through government grants and scholarships, which is really the only way I could have made it.
Yea, pretty much what I was thinking when I heard it.
Digipen is a huge amount of debt, but it looks oh so tempting.
I've been working with financial calculators seeing if I can make it a teeny bit more affordable.
find anyway possible to do this ^
OP: Listen to Curt brah
I'm not totally unreasonable, and I'm looking at some solutions.
Maybe a BFA at a college in Washington state, near Seattle while self educating myself in 3D via the internet. I could look into some scholarships and try to get some of the left over money back from the government, but there isn't much guarantee/safety in relying on scholarships for a plan to work. I promise guys, I'm gonna try and work with you to the best of my ability. Debt is very terrifying, but some options I will not consider (the ones that involve staying home).
Delete that shit above, won't help you explaining your situation. But you've got to at least try all the shit I said above, even if you need to find workarounds for certain things.
Oh and you're a minority so a State school is an even better idea.
Also in college work on that self motivation stuff. That shit won't fly in the adult world. Some of my advice may sound harsh but honestly wouldn't you rather have that than some dude telling you not to worry about dropping 160k into a college you're not entirely sure is going to get you a job?
I'm working, I'm working.
State funded programs are so lackluster when it comes to 3D so I'll probably start looking into some Illustration programs rather than 3D. I'll also call up Digipen on Monday, get some estimates. I've been talking to quite a few people and the results I'm getting is somewhat overwhelming.
The self motivation thing is more or less me feeding from the groups I'm in. I work better in groups I guess you can call it. Alone, I only work when I'm inspired. I'll work harder though, I start at Mason on the 23rd, and I'm taking the anorexic art foundation year. Either way, my curriculum can work on which ever way I decide. I do know I want to be as close to Seattle as possible to take a FuturePoly class or two. Thanks ceebee, really got the brain cells working I guess.
Trust me, the more you follow the tuts the more adept your mind becomes at soaking in that info and keeping pace with the instructor. Going to school for your gen and art stuff while following these tuts sounds like your best option.
Just keep your passion alive and dont let yourself giveup!
Best of luck to you man
Also this is the most important part make sure to post on polycount and get your work critiqued!
Yep. And so are most game art programs at private/for-profit schools.
If you're dead-set on going to school, which it seems you are for reasons beyond just education, go to a state school with a reputation for having a decent art program.
Game art degrees are not worth the paper they're printed on.
They're useless.
They are completely, totally, utterly, 100% bullshit and you shouldn't get one.
Take classes in fine art or illustration and get your BA or BFA. You'll learn all the essential skills you need for 3D (that is, fundamental art skills), and you'll be in a much better position to move around to various art jobs. Learning 3D programs is just learning where the buttons are since they're all essentially the same tool. Learning art is a huge investment of time and effort that can take years and benefits you having a mentor or set of good instructors.
Attitude/Motivation:
It seems like your attitude is kind of already self defeating. If you're going to follow tutorials with the assumption that you cant get much out of them, then of-course you wont get anything out of it because you entered the situation already expecting to fail. Learning in groups is great, but you're going to need to learn to get the most out of tutorials, and start asking people who do what you want to do to teach you a thing or two, post on the forums, join us in the google hangouts etc. Also motivation/inspiration are two different things. A lot of people starting out need to feel "inspired" to make stuff. But if you're working a full time job in the industry, inspiration doesn't mean much. You have work to do, and you do it. Plain and simple. Treat your portfolio like such, you need to work, so just sit down and do it.
School:
School can be a great environment, but for the cost, it isn't worth it, and chances are you probably wont be ready for a job afterwards (Unless you work your ass off in your spare time, like SERIOUSLY WORK YOUR ASS OFF...ALL THE TIME) Being among like minded people would help, In my experience there are usually only a small handful of people who are actually focused on accomplishing goals, and the rest of your pupils will dick around not doing much, or spending too much time partying/wasting time. I went to a two year community college, but pretty much all the stuff I know was learned outside of class.
Misc:
I am also African American, was also raised in the suburbs, and I'm a pretty meek guy for the most part. Thrusting yourself into an unfamiliar situation is scary, but it builds character and you'll learn. You need to get out of your comfort zone in order to grow as a person.
Okay one more thing, YOU WILL MAKE MISTAKES, and YOU WILL FAIL; but you if you learn to recover from these mistakes you'll get better and accomplish your goals.
#YOLOKRISPYKREME2012$WAG
Everything that Ceebee said but get a standard job aswell to pay for it all. Look for intern ships too around the area.
3 years Experience > Degree.
Don't treat it as a gimmicky job, it's hard work and eventually good pay.
My opinion is you just need a way to survive for 1-2 years while you learn game art. I've said this a lot, the Internet is going to be your primary teacher regardless of going to uni or not.
I personally went to uni, and it was just that, not worrying about bills or jobs while I learnt 3d, the course was mostly shit even tho it was regarded as the best in the uk, no teachers for the most part, with poor direction and constantly changing criteria.
But they had great facilities, it gave me the time and opportunity to watch Ben Mathis' tuts religiously and use max.
It was also a good life experience, becoming independent etc.
If you can't stay at home which is usually the better option, it can be a good way to survive while learning.
Internships can also be good while studying, getting feedback as well as getting used to the work environment. Tho be careful where you choose, some places arent worth it if your not learning from it.
My company is actually pretty good with interns, Like most places you would only make tiny props which don't matter ultimately. I've seen some people really improve, while others just couldn't handle criticism. Its a real quick way of testing someone's metal, listening is your most important asset.
If you can listen and absorb critiques from everyone at polycount. Your going to excel quickly, lurking doesn't do you shit.
Good luck with what ever decision you make dude
Or as everyone else said, hit up the countless 3D tutorial websites on the web, attend some 2D classes in your local area, and get a part time job. Good luck!
I don't regret mine though wish I could have done the stuff I was doing in my spare time at school haha (in all fairness they did give me the tools and basics to go on) The things I got out of it were being with a group of cool friends to hang out with and pushing yourself.
Thanks, I'm will need all the luck I can get. Most of the tutorials I have followed around are free ones and aren't very good at explaining why something should be done (which would help me a lot more than do x). When I get some extra money from working on campus, I'm gonna try to get a subscription to at least one after buying some other supplies (new computer, tablet).
Surprise surprise! I was actually planning on using my new project as my polycount debut, I just wanted to get further ahead than one plant, one miniature building and a waterfall, which took me ages to get right. As for my other work, I didn't want to post it because as someone stated, it's amateurish, and it was my first time working with 3D stuffs.
Here's the surprise, Virginia Commonwealth University has the best art program in the state...too bad it's 15 minutes from my home and 5 minutes from where my mother works at. I did apply and I did get accepted to the Art Foundation, but to Comm. Art program is ridiculously hard to get into (I know it would be harder for me to get to the portfolio level for Comm. Art in 1 year). George Mason's art program is decent I think, the work that comes out the MFA program is pretty nice but I haven't looked into the MFA. I've spent some time looking at out of state schools (more specifically ones near Seattle) to see if there is any decent programs around, but a lot of the art programs seem experimental, I'll make some phone calls tomorrow.
Yea, I know my faults and it all revolves around my current setting (hence the need I feel to go). It's not that I feel I won't get anything out of them, it's just I'll go through them and I'll get lost or I'll over analyze something and then I'm stuck in the motion of thinking. Then I do something, and it comes out wrong and then there's not much I can do myself from there. Mistakes are really hard with me. I'm still working through the motions and I give myself leeway (mistakes in art or on a test) but for some reason, I cannot allow myself to make a mistake in life and that leads to a whole other set of issues for another day. Despite the fact that changing one's environment to build character, I believe that can happen, but I think one should change to a safe environment. I honestly wouldn't feel safe in my home, and I don't think that would be beneficial to me learning if I'm always paranoid.
The two companies in the area (and not even in my area, further north) are Bioware Mythic in Fairfax (which is fairly near George Mason) and Bethesda (which is in Maryland). I could have not been researching well enough, but those are the only two I found. There's tons of mobile gaming companies around though.
I would like to say I listen to critiques, but mileage may vary.
I'm not too sure on an internship right now, I don't feel as if I am competent enough to even be an intern. If the opportunity comes to me in the future though, I may take it, but I rather save myself the embarrassment.
You're gonna have to excuse the remark, but I know. I am a beginner and I know that.
Here's a look at my senior year schedule:
Dual Enrollment Composition I
Dual Enrollment Calculus I
Dual Enrollment Lab Physics
Dual Enrollment 3D Animation
I would have love to spend all my time working with 3D, but it wasn't physically possible considering the workload I had. If I could have it my way, I would have done it differently, but my life has never been about me until now.
I think I should add that Digipen's program isn't exactly Game Art, it's Graphic Art and Animation. The game side comes from student driven projects. Comparing the curriculum side by side with the state university I'm going to right now, it has a lot more Fine Art and a lot more 3D work, which is what I mean by state programs seem lackluster. I've spent some time looking around last night, and I'll spend some part of today looking. Thanks for all the responses guys, it means a lot.
EDIT: I've been looking around Gnomon Workshop and Eat3D and I have to say I'm somewhat impressed (a lot of character art stuff, but it's fine considering I'll want some of the organic modeling). I want to talk to someone on a more personal one on one level about some things, so ceebee, or anyone else would like to, send me in inbox and we can talk numbers. Thanks guys, I've really was worried about not getting a decent education, which is why I wanted to go to Digipen. I guess I can go to school full time, work part time and learn things on the side; however, I will not commit to Eat3D or Gnomon until my second semester of my Freshman year at Mason. Until then, I will work on still transferring to Digipen or Academy of Art, and if I do think I can work and go to school and self teach, I'll rearrange my schedule and declare Art and Visual Technology as my major. If not,I'll come back here as I'm sure you guys could offer me some useful advice. Thanks again and once again, someone feel free to message me so I can have a more personal conversation
Get the hell out of your house. All that will happen is you will sit in a dark room and brood and have negative thoughts in your head. Before I came to school, I was pretty depressed also (pathetically depressed; hey, we've all been there). A month or two into school, I was feeling a lot better. Right now, I'm 3 weeks from finishing and though it is stressful, I haven't been depressed in awhile. While it's painful that for a 1 year course I payed $30,000, it's also an investment.
Yeah, I could have learned everything at home. But it would have taken me twice if not 3 times as long. Don't take this the wrong way, but to me you don't really seem like the type of guy that can kick yourself in the ass, especially if you are depressed. Get out in the world, get social and make connections. School actually made me feel better about everything...even though I have about a 1% chance of getting hired anywhere. It's more than just learning about videogames, it's about having teachers to kick your ass and classmates for friendly competition.
In the meantime, just notice things. Pay attention to details you might not have before in real life. Looks to me like you want to be an environment artist. Your plant looks fantastic, but your shed thing looks pretty shitty (no offense, we are all learning
I dont know, in the end it's up to you. You obviously know how to use a 3D program so school for you would probably be a waste of money. I would move out, get a part time job, and work on 3d in your spare time.
Sorry for the long post