Getting in the game industry : some (serious) questions.
Hi everyone,
How can one with a great idea can make something out of it ?
And by something I DO NOT mean money. I DO mean though, seriously, how can one turn this idea into a project by gathering talented artists and producing something "community created" ?
I suppose this question has been asked trillions of times since the beginning of the world, but this is not your usual nerd asking "hey, i love call of duty can anyone show me how to make one ?" (you can usually add tons of xp, x$, xo or whatever to this kind of topics).
What I'm talking about is a long thought idea. Seriously, I mean dozens of pages written, describing the game mechanics and specifications. This and a folder on my HDD containing GBs of photo references and stuffs (very not professional word but there are many kinf of things in it indeed). I can provide myself a few modeling and texturing skills (mostly modeling, and some serious coding skills.
But now, what I need is to throw the idea out in the open and see what happen.
What I need most at this stage is someone with game designing skills (and yes, even people who THINK they might be good at game design are allowed, your skills will talk for you).
What is great is that everyone is allowed, you have to keep in mind that it is meant to be a community project.
I am determined to do something so I will keep it going no matter what.
Everyone can join and quit whenever they want to, without saying a word (even if THAT would be really rude).
More seriously, I would really need someone to share the idea with. It would be a pretty hard thing to do to try and explain this on a post.
What I can say about this game :
- something that was never did before.
- something based on the current industry successful genre.
- something that can be developed with pretty common tools (UDK, in my opinion, would be a perfect match).
Sounds interesting huh ?!
Anyway, I figured myself that it's summer time and people might be interested to do something really creative and productive during the vacations.
For now it is up to you, I am ready to read anything as answers.
"Can you hear me Earth ?"
How can one with a great idea can make something out of it ?
And by something I DO NOT mean money. I DO mean though, seriously, how can one turn this idea into a project by gathering talented artists and producing something "community created" ?
I suppose this question has been asked trillions of times since the beginning of the world, but this is not your usual nerd asking "hey, i love call of duty can anyone show me how to make one ?" (you can usually add tons of xp, x$, xo or whatever to this kind of topics).
What I'm talking about is a long thought idea. Seriously, I mean dozens of pages written, describing the game mechanics and specifications. This and a folder on my HDD containing GBs of photo references and stuffs (very not professional word but there are many kinf of things in it indeed). I can provide myself a few modeling and texturing skills (mostly modeling, and some serious coding skills.
But now, what I need is to throw the idea out in the open and see what happen.
What I need most at this stage is someone with game designing skills (and yes, even people who THINK they might be good at game design are allowed, your skills will talk for you).
What is great is that everyone is allowed, you have to keep in mind that it is meant to be a community project.
I am determined to do something so I will keep it going no matter what.
Everyone can join and quit whenever they want to, without saying a word (even if THAT would be really rude).
More seriously, I would really need someone to share the idea with. It would be a pretty hard thing to do to try and explain this on a post.
What I can say about this game :
- something that was never did before.
- something based on the current industry successful genre.
- something that can be developed with pretty common tools (UDK, in my opinion, would be a perfect match).
Sounds interesting huh ?!
Anyway, I figured myself that it's summer time and people might be interested to do something really creative and productive during the vacations.
For now it is up to you, I am ready to read anything as answers.
"Can you hear me Earth ?"
Replies
Also see Game and Mod Development Article and Some mod guidelines from the wiki: CategoryGameIndustry
I agree, I should be getting a prototype running.
As I said, I am determined to get this project up.
I just figured that work vould be achieved faster with more people working on it.
You misunderstood me though. I only asked for a person skilled in game design to discuss the project.
I started some modeling last week so I'll start posting things pretty soon.
I did not post this in the request section (figured a while after posting that it could be the right place to) because my post was kind of an opened question. But I got drifted as I was writing...
See you soon then.
Either a pile of really well executed game design docs, but in the best case have prototype gameplay and a set pipeline for Art. I guess UDK makes it easy.
Even if I keep thinking that it would be much more productive to start as a team, even if it is two persons. As I alone on this for the moment, the progress will be slow, giving this project even less chances to see its rank grow...
Are we going in circles here ?
Get a solid idea of what you want to do , and write it down, then start expanding on it, if you are scetchy about how some parts will work thats ok, you can come back to it.
As soon as you know enough to start a demo youre set to do some coding.
If you can get that far (a working demo of some element of your idea) then people will gravitate toward you.
The problem is that people have too many back scars from projects that went nowhere. The decision to join up and help with a mod/game these days is not one taken lightly as you're basically deciding to give up working on your own stuff to work on an unknown quantity. The more you can do in advance to make people feel comfortable the better. And, unfortunately, a design document won't cut it in most cases.
I would tell as many people as you can everywhere, transmit some enthusiasm and gather reliable people. You don't know who may you need till you meet them. Sure you need certain roles but generally if this is your first go then your not going to attempt a massive game requiring a huge team.
Nobody steals ideas if that's what your worried about, everyone has probably had a couple same ideas as super successful games, hell we could both be working on the same idea rite now without knowing it. Everyone can pull 5 fully planned out games off the top of their head, the difference lies in who has the diligence to see it through.
-Get 1 or 2 reliable people
-Get organized, seriously organized, plan everyday from day 1 upto release
-Get funding/way to survive while deving.
Honestly if a friend came to me and said they had an idea for a game that involved portals you could fire around that created holes in space. Thats about all I would need to get started, the potato and glados are all secondary in my opinion.
I recommend you take your core concept/feature 'which is so great' and prototype it, throw the rest of your design document in the bin.
The reason you should be prototyping like many people have said is because 'design documents' (they don't actually exist in the real world) really hold no value to anyone else apart from yourself. You need to gains peoples trust by getting your hands dirty.
Just a question, but what roll would you play in this projects development? Do you see yourself as the designer?
Not in the context of a single document containing everything to do with the game. In fact I don't think I have ever seen a word document that contains design information. Games from my experience are designed hands on while features are pitched in presentations and then prototyped and moved forward. Often something that starts will become very different from there original pitch as the idea changes to see what works and doesn't.
Understandable your story is going to be a big document, but generally speaking even that is broken down into a presentation with as little text as possible for everyone to digest quickly. The in-depth version of the story will be hidden away until its needed and typically by the time you get to the point of looking at the in-depth version it has already changed.
The idea that a designer sits down and writes a massive document describing the game and then the programmers and artists make the game is hilarious.
I remember writing a 'design document' for a Univercity module when I was studying, it was only when I started working in the industry I realised what a waste of time it was.
This is the design document/pitch for C.A.R.S. by Slightly Mad Studios.
http://wmdportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/CARS_Game_Design_Overview_v1.pdf
You're right, games tend to evolve as they are developed "hands-on" by the dev team, but that doesn't mean you don't need a place to start from. There's nothing weird or wrong about having a design document when you begin a project, it helps get everyone on the same page, and gives the team something to focus on and reference when design decisions are discussed.
aur8l, I know it's tempting to start gathering a team when you've got a great idea that you're excited about. Work on it solo for a while, get a decent little prototype together, and then start showing it to people. As you know, everyone has an idea, but if you're not willing to put a month or two's worth of solo work into it to make it something that looks like it might actually make a decent game, there aren't many worthwhile people out there who will give it serious consideration. That doesn't mean you HAVE to work on it alone for a while, but you should be willing to. The better you can make it look before you start looking for help, the better the help you'll be able to find. Good luck dude.
/design/documents was created just to trick you, all those docs are just old Encarta files and Harry Potter fan fiction.
Yes, I've seen project where there were no answers to anything. Where confusion reigns supreme and the poor folks, despite all this, still managed to ship something, and where nobody every wanted to work again on that project because they knew, once they forgot everything there was no way to ever get into that project again because of piss poor documentation.
Games where assets were made which then all got discarded because nobody really had an idea where in the story they should be used, because nothing was set in stone or written down? Or assets that got remade twice because people didn't have a clue who made what and where it was? Mechanics that keep radically changing every month? Features that got re-implemented dozen of times because there was no documentation and the programmer never knew what was really wanted by the designers?
I'm not talking about documentation overkill where the act of documenting is more important than making the game. But if you don't document, you're fucked. It's like modeling without concept and references.
Just because some studios think they can do without doesn't mean it's good practice or even recommended! It's irresponsible to run anything that include a creative effort and an engineering without proper documentation, where people's livelihoods depend on. After all, there's scripts for every film, documented dialogue, storyboards. There's design documents for every major piece of software that's not throw-away-use-once garbage. In an industry where millions of dollars are invested in a title we should really think about good practices and not just go ahead without having any plan and without leaving any traces. /rant
p.s. team members will love you too if they can read into your project rather than "we have no docs but ask dude XY - you have never met him and he probably has no time for you - but its all in his head. Oh wait, he resigned last week..."
I think you miss understood what I was saying, I was commenting on the concept of a single bible document that contains everything. This is just simply not very practical and for the start of a project very unproductive.
I 'personally' believe a game should has little documentation 'as needed' and was by no means suggesting you don't make any at all...
A project pitch is a high level goal a team aims to achieve and a way to focus a team of people into thinking within a similar frame of mind. You can then expand into core features and what might make this game unique. Each core feature/idea is pitched individually as a concept. Decisions typically get made and while this process is still happening and evolving the team will being to prototype the ideas and see how they work. Early prototypes don't need to be fully functional, just enough to prove it works or would be most of all, fun. Months down the line as your project begins to focus more you integrate all your ideas you feel work together and start to build the basics of your platform and game. Now this is when things start to get more detailed and focused as you have moved from exploring your options and decisions and into the functions and development of what you have chosen.
Writing god knows how many pages of design work before you have even started... I still stand firmly behind it being very unproductive from a team development stand point.
Again, always question the purpose of what your writing and the value it has to other people. If your currently writing an in-depth look at how your jump function is going to work then your possibly jumping ahead of yourself. A games production can be more creative if you start very high level and over time gradually become more focused over time as you lock features and content and move into production. Kwramm above gave many reasons for having documentation, all of which completely correct. But a lot of it was production based documentation and I would question its value for the stage you are at now.
At the very start of a project this is the sort of thing I would expect to see, not a 10 page document about how the gamemode will function.
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I have to admit you're right
What you said wasn't wrong, it was just production based design work. Think of a game like World of Warcraft, I'm sure a project like that would be a nightmare without really in depth documentation or the class and talents system or least proper ways to communicate it in a database. But a first person shooter often boils down to how it feels, guns for example might have a presentation that outlines the purpose of each weapon and its intended play style (on a high level), but all those numbers of damage, run speed, reload speed etc... are just tweaked directly based on the team and community feedback. Not really any need to keep track of the changes, if it feels unbalanced... its... unbalanced? :P
With FPS it might not be too complex, but think of an RPG or strategy title. Actually there was a really good article on Game Developer Magazine how the Kingdoms of Amalur folks designed and tweaked the mechanics in their gameplay. The article covered documentation, testing, data mining results and how one mechanic affects another, and so on. Very recommended read if you ever find yourself designing mechanics that deal a lot with numbers and formulas.
Some of their data was the result of gameplay though, because as you said, it makes no sense to plan everything ahead when you can just get results from testing and live feedback. Still you want to have some sort of plan to give everything a rough direction...
Hmm... i gotta say that documentation of a game, tech and new things that you are doing in the game should ALWAYS be documented. Not only for your benefit, but benefit of others. This helps in several ways. To improve the tech, to build upon and to make it accessible to other people. As well as just a reminder 6 months down the road when you forgot what you did there to get it to work.
Here at work we try to emphasize the documenting, and i feel (with lots of organization) that documenting improves your productivity, organizes thoughts and ideas and its easy to iterate when something is on say a wiki.
Thats what i think tho.
http://www.sloperama.com/advice/specs.htm
I'm not against it lol, I think documentation is vitally important, I'm just trying to say even if some may dislike heavy documentation, that you should atleast always stay organized. Things can easily go to shit without proper organization.
I agree, and i was just commenting on the importance of it so its not overlooked. Some people find it easy to say you'll get to it at the end of the project or... as long as i have my notes it'll be ok. But as you say. Being organized is part of it.
Also... without proper organization comes bad management, and you fall behind and you end up crunching to catch up. Think smart and plan accordingly. That's all.
Having a whole team design a game can also be called design by committee, which is why there is so much bland crap out there, no clarity of vision. -paraphrasing David Jaffe
That's probably why most of the innovation these days comes from indie games because it's 1 or 2 people making all of the design decisions.
Now as far as building a team, being an idea guy won't cut it, being able to create your idea is what counts.
Well, you've been busy
I will take the time to answer everyone tonight (GMT + 1).
Seems like an very interesting discussion at least, and it is better than nothing!
I wish to thank all of you for :
1 - taking the time to read
2 - throwing in some thoughts
I'll try to answer everyone (almost live, I'm reading your posts at hte same time).
I know that too much, I have a few of those scars on my own. That's pretty much why I wanted to avoid making the same mistakes in the first place.
I think the "join when you like, quit when you want" method is a good response to the sacrifices needed on other projects everyone have on the hands.
That's some piece of advice !
Actually, it is not really the idea-robbing thing I'm worried about. I'm afraid I couldn't make myself clear in one post. That's why I wanted to talk about the concepts with a game-designing enthusiast (MMO oriented) before taking it up to the next level !
So I AM looking for one or two reliable people (someone good at modelling could back me up too)
As for the funding you are talking about I can't say anything. I'm ready to spend of few of my own bucks on pieces of software if needed, and I can provide some hardware - a dedicated server to start with.
Currently working on that !
Some of the documentation may not be THAT useful, at least I would say so and that's why it needs to be confronted to the eye of an other person !
But I don't agree with the idea of not gathering documentation.
You can read that mostly people around here agree with that.
And yes, design documents DO exist.
As for he "role", I think of it as a collaborative project, so I could be designer, but I will be modelling as well. And I would be truly relieved if a modeler can help with the design and so forth. You get the idea.
Well, yes.
IchII3D, thanks for the very interesting link. I was afraid myself when seeing the pile of documentation I've gathered. The overview you'e introduced is a perfect compilation of design documentation.
Keeping this as a template to make this one's
I'll continue in another post due to quoting limitation I think.
Damn tempting, glad you can understand it !
I am prepared to work on my own though, and I know it is a part of the process.
Thank you for cheering me up somehow !
Define "trick", please. I mght not be getting the irony though, I had some kind of a day.
Exactly !!
Usually the no-documentation, wizardry-made projects are associated with the "scars on the back" we were talking earlier !
I absolutely want to avoid over-documentation
IchII3D, made you quite an answer as well, but both of you are talking the same !
I'm not into describing how the character will crouch or how GUI will look like !
It's all about mechanics in here. And photo documentation mostly.
I'll be watching the video a bit later if you don't mind, thank you for sharing.
If nobody minds, that's all for answering.
So, here's the only image I will post for now because :
- it is the only 3D work achieved so far.
- we are in "General Discussions" and I have already broke the forum rules once, my bad.
We are definitely aiming toward FPS, aren't we ?
No big deal here, texture work is hardly done. I modeled this with a broken bone in the left hand, so working AROUND the actual model was hard.
I will do a second pass as soon as I fully recover !
Texture work could not reasonably be achieved. I'm left handed (isn't that too bad huh).
It's a PA-MAS G1.
See you later !
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